Kershaw Spine Whack Fail

[cncpro11]

Was at Blade today.
As I was admiring a GEC roughneck, the rep. offered to share some history behind the knife. It is a short but stout slip joint folder designed for Pennsylvania oil field workers to cut thick sections of rope. This is achieved by placing the blade on the rope and giving the spine a good hard whack.
Imagine that, battoning with a non locking knife.
Take it for what it's worth.

 

[TriviaMonster]

Was at Blade today.
As I was admiring a GEC roughneck, the rep. offered to share some history behind the knife. It is a short but stout slip joint folder designed for Pennsylvania oil field workers to cut thick sections of rope. This is achieved by placing the blade on the rope and giving the spine a good hard whack.
Imagine that, battoning with a non locking knife.
Take it for what it's worth.

Thanks for that info, that is interesting.

 

[lava_lamp]

I get why the debate rages as to whether or not the spine whack is a valid test, but...

I believe that if a knife has a lock, it should withstand at least as much force as is generated through striking the spine. It ought to work. Saying slipjoints don't have a lock is irrelevant.

I have owned brand name, expensive knives that I could close with my hands even with the lock deployed and that's just unacceptable.

 

[Lycosa]

Then a lock needs to be designed for generated force coming in all directions, no?

 

[Fred Sanford]

Then a lock needs to be designed for generated force coming in all directions, no?

I say yes. Many companies already do this but most liner locks just suck because people don't know how to do them properly. Some frame locks suffer the same fate due to poor execution of design.

 

[Lycosa]

Thank you David.
btw, I never had a locking knife fail on me.
rolf

 

[brownshoe]

The Paul lock was designed with two primary design directives. First the knife will lock closed. Second the knife will lock open. You can whack on a Paul lock all day and it might get a little loose, but it will never accidentally close.

 

[MDQBox]

I understand how some people think the spine whack test is pointless and proves nothing while others think it is a clear indication of the "quality" of a knife. IMO, I don't think I will ever find myself in a scenario where the spine whack test would even be replicated in a real world situation, however I think it definitely indicates a "weak point" in the knife. Not so much an indication or measure of quality but definitely a "flaw" in design. This video is definitely enlightening, but it won't keep me from buying anymore Kershaws or ZTs.

BTW, I'm curious how the CRKT LAWKS system would perform. . .???

Thanks for the video. Very informative. +1

 

[midnight flyer]

.

BTW, I'm curious how the CRKT LAWKS system would perform. . .???

Check this out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfVBSW7tO9k

You can get the idea by watching, but the subtitles in English are pretty accurate.

You have to watch almost the whole video to get the actual measure of how much punishment the M16 will take. It is incredible, really incredible. The LAWKS system does fail, but if you watch the whole video, the LAWKS system is actually a safety device to back up the liner lock, and while it fails after a ton of hard beating, prying, bashing, and shock testing, the liner lock only fails after much more abuse.

This guy chops, uses it really hard as a prybar to the point of blade deformation, drives the knife though a 2X6 with a mallet to cut through it in two, repeatedly stabs a metal plate, and does all kinds of other things to literally tear the knife apart. Finally, the liner lock fails after the knife has literally been bent to the point of being pried apart.

Keep in mind this guy has set out to find the limits of this knife by abusing it until it falls apart. He finally breaks it.

The only knives to outlast this guy (and I think he finally breaks the blade on one) is the Cold Steel folders. IIRC, even he can't break it.

Robert

 

[Lycosa]

Wow. ^
I guess my new CRKT M16 was a very good purchase.
rolf

 

[midnight flyer]

Wow. ^
I guess my new CRKT M16 was a very good purchase.
rolf

After seeing that video, I was trying to figure out how I needed one so I could justify buying it. I knew they had a reputation for being tough folders, but honestly had no idea they would take that kind of punishment. I am still trying to make a case to myself for needing that one. Got a feeling it won't be long before one is residing in my pocket!

Robert

 

[Lycosa]

Robert- I have some nice folders but ever since I got this M16, for $30., it has not left my pocket.
Why wait?
rolf

 

[midnight flyer]

Robert- I have some nice folders but ever since I got this M16, for $30., it has not left my pocket.
Why wait?
rolf

Well, I just bought the American Lawman about 3 weeks ago and I am still really enjoying it. Talk about lockup!

And as far as the M16 goes, I was actually eyeballing that knife's big brother, the M21. I have a group of +/-3" bladed work knives I use, but a couple of larger ones would be nice, too.

And the CRKTs are certainly affordable. Anyone that I know that has and uses the CRKT products just love them for their quality and reliability.

Decisions, decisions....

Robert

 

[Lycosa]

Very good, Robert.
lmk which knive(s) you decide to get. I have been looking at a Tan M16 Big Dog. $50.
rolf

 

[Kryptoglow]

As far as the OP's original point....I have always been careful when stabbing a hard object with any folder. I think, what if my hand slips down to the blade, lock breaks or fails, grips fail....? I really do think it's a serious concern when a knife fails the spine whack test so easily. I see so many knives designed for a comfortable reverse grip. If someone charged you quickly and you stabbed in reverse grip in a downward motion then you might get mugged and loose your fingers. If in a combat situation it would be even more likely to happen if stabbing into body armor/molle lock...
I must admit that sometimes I get in a hurry and use tools in ways not intended. That's my main concern with spine whack failing knives. If you keep in mind that any folder can fail then it will probably never be a real concern. Just don't stab trees/stumps and such in reverse grip or stab in regular grip from low to high like a gut stab.
I have one knife that has a manual lock for the lockbar. It is a pain sometimes as it gets stuck and then I have to unlock it before I can close it. I think I can get over that small frustration much easier now.

 

[Lycosa]

If one is serious about a knife for EDC or SD, and is concerned that a folder will/can fail, then a fixed blade is the only way to go. That's that.

 

[ShepardCC]

Wow, it's just amazing how people will defend failure. I got the same kind of response when I posted a thread about my ZT 0200. It will pop open on a spine whack against the palm of my hand that doesn't hurt my hand, so it's obviously not that hard. I mean, the purpose of a lock is to lock, right? Not some of the time, not most of the time, not only under certain conditions but 100% of the time until I purposefully decide to unlock it. Otherwise, why don't we indeed just all go back to slipjoints and rely on no one ever having any kind of accident or doing something inattentive and stupid? To me, this video and my own experience says that Kershaw/ZT needs to work on their linerlock lock face geometry at the least. It's not a problem restricted to Kershaw/ZT, either. I have three Spyderco Resiliences, none of which will withstand a light whack. On the other hand, I have a cheap Schrade linerlock whose locking bar is about as thick as a matchbook cover that will not collapse no matter hard it's whacked. Personally, it doesn't seem to me to be unreasonable to expect a "hard use" $100+ linerlock to lock as well as an $8 cheapie.

Agreed. It's meant to lock and stay that way until disengaged. I'm going to try this on all my knives.

I'm a gun guy and I don't tolerate any failure of any kind. Not of the ammo I carry. Not of the magazines and how they feed the rounds. Not of the gun itself. Everything must work and work flawlessly. I have torture tested all my guns and shot every round type and brand I own to make sure it fires every time. No jams. No failure to feed. No stove piping. I buy the best because I want the best when it come to my loved ones and my life. I don't like getting cut nor losing any part of my body. So for me I don't want that blade coming back at my fingers for any reason no matter what is happening.

 

[Fred Sanford]

Wow, it's just amazing how people will defend failure. I got the same kind of response when I posted a thread about my ZT 0200. It will pop open on a spine whack against the palm of my hand that doesn't hurt my hand, so it's obviously not that hard. I mean, the purpose of a lock is to lock, right? Not some of the time, not most of the time, not only under certain conditions but 100% of the time until I purposefully decide to unlock it. Otherwise, why don't we indeed just all go back to slipjoints and rely on no one ever having any kind of accident or doing something inattentive and stupid? To me, this video and my own experience says that Kershaw/ZT needs to work on their linerlock lock face geometry at the least. It's not a problem restricted to Kershaw/ZT, either. I have three Spyderco Resiliences, none of which will withstand a light whack. On the other hand, I have a cheap Schrade linerlock whose locking bar is about as thick as a matchbook cover that will not collapse no matter hard it's whacked. Personally, it doesn't seem to me to be unreasonable to expect a "hard use" $100+ linerlock to lock as well as an $8 cheapie.

I must have missed seeing this the first time through this thread. I can only say that I couldn't agree more. I mean seriously.

 

[crom]

Don't forget that people's personal feelings get hurt when it involves a big maker like Kershaw. If somebody started a thread saying, "look how easily this Mantis liner lock is defeated" and posted a similar video, people would be all over them saying things like "you get what you pay for bud" and "what do you expect for Mantis?". I have owned Kershaws for going on 15 years and have had many examples of their liner locks at all price levels. The Needs Work I can let slide because it has clearly been used heavily, but the 350? Come on, I'd be pretty upset to buy such a hard use knife and see the lock defeated like that. Maybe blems aren't all cosmetic after all?

 

[Kai Corp.]

Maybe blems aren't all cosmetic after all?

That has been stated on this very forum many times. You take you're chances with blems. To complain about it after the savings, knowing it's a blem...
From Mr. Welk.

ff5, blems have problems. Those that have bought blems without problems that exceed a scratch and dent should consider themselves fortunate. I don't like blems, never will. It's a big waste of our time and energies. Having to do up an annual warehouse sale is unfortunate, and I hope it goes away some day. Having blems on the market is not ideal. Explaining issues with regards to these blems also is difficult. Having blems show up for warranty is a problem. Having dealers not disclose that knives are blems is additionally an issue. Answering what an XXXX is on a blade can be frustrating. Blems having a good reputation saddens me.

As to the OP, you've been quite quiet since your video. Sorry to see you're having trouble with your liner locks. We'll even look at that blem for you. Please look to send them in for warranty. We'll be happy to assist with further instructions if necessary.

I will say with the amount of knives we produce, there are bound to be a few with issues. We'll ensure you get taken care of. We also understand that users can hurt there own knives based on disassembly, abuse, and even sabotage. Oh the stories that could be told weekly with manufacturers and their customers "warranty" experiences.