Kershaw vs. Zero tolerance

[SunOfAtom]

I have to give you credit, you are consistent. Instead of responding to any points I made, you just moved the goalpost. I see no reason to now engage in a discussion about independent research of duty-issue products.

 

[RamZar]

When a law enforcement officer presents his findings through honest to God rigorous testing, take it for what it's worth.

You seem to have empowered yourself as the final arbiter on this issue due to your profession and perceived experience with the knives even though your experience is based mostly on perceived confidence level.

 

[bodog]

For instance, the organization I belong to bid for new pistols a few years back. The big companies, sig, glock, s and w, berretta, and h and k were among those in the trials. Now based on perception and what works for other people, you'd think sig and glock would be the front runners, and they were, until they started failing. All companies failed except HK. Now, no one really wanted the HK, it was too short, the trigger pull sucked, and there were apparent issues from the outset with the exposed hammer, etc. It wasn't that great ergonomically. It cost more, so on and so forth. But they couldn't get a substantial number to fail. So they went with that contract. Now, the organization for whom I work shoots, a lot. I'm also a firearms instructor, so I hear about certain things more than the average officer. I haven't heard of more than a handful of these pistols failing. That's over 30,000 pistols out there for my agency. I'll take into account the issues I haven't heard about. I'll be generous and say 500 have failed due to manufacturing defects and not something like blatant negligence or whatever. And I'll be so bold as to say that the officers working for the same organization i work for puts its firearms through hell and back, crawling through nasty crap, humidity, dust storms, a HUGE variety of environments, there's not much in the way of sitting in a car and patrolling a city street.

You do the math and figure out what a professional law enforcement agency considers acceptable for the tools it gives to its officers. I'll say that it's not anywhere close to 5%. It's way under. And me saying 5% is probably generous for KAI. It's likely higher than that if you account for the people who genuinely don't use their knives enough for them to fail. But that's really just speculation based on what I've personally seen.

In the end, what I originally said is true. They aren't FOR law enforcement and military, regardless how much I enjoy their knives. What's true is true regardless of my personal opinion.

I'll concede and say that they could very well be suited for the hard use crowd that won't truly need them and if they fail, it's not a big deal to just pack up for the weekend and subsequently return the knife for warranty work. That could easily be true. But that's not "professional grade", it's more like "hobby grade." There's nothing wrong with that, if that's how it had been marketed. Hobby grade knives for the everyday man. 5% tolerance knives. You can trust 95% of our knives 100% of the time.

 

[bodog]

You seem to have empowered yourself as the final arbiter on this issue due to your profession and perceived experience with the knives even though your experience is based mostly on perceived confidence level.

I haven't heard many other LEOs or service men stepping up to the plate with their own good or bad experiences. I wish they would, and I'd listen to them. There was a guy earlier who said he was swat, but only used the knife to cut pizza and stuff. There was another guy, and he didn't sound ecstatic. So there's three guys with one who's willing to engage and the other two with not quite stellar reviews.

 

[RamZar]

In the end, what I originally said is true. They aren't FOR law enforcement and military, regardless how much I enjoy their knives. What's true is true regardless of my personal opinion.

It's not an absolute truth just your opinion.

 

[craytab]

It's not an absolute truth just your opinion.

Yes, opinion as fact seems to be a trend here.



But hey, back on topic!

I have way more ZTs than Kershaws. ZT is just way more hard use :thumbup:

I think the only kershaw I currently still have is the Thermite. Excellent budget blade. I had blurs and a Skyline and a few other of the Chinese budget ones (Freefall?). Not that the quality is bad on Kershaws, I guess I just moved on to ZT. I still think about getting a Knockout or Piston but then I think, what is that knife going to do that my 550, 0560s, or 301 can't? Plus they look better doing it

 

[bodog]

It's not an absolute truth just your opinion.

You're right, opinion based on fact.

"Come buy from us if you want a really, really nice, hard use knife that only sometimes sucks."

I'm not the only one who got a stinker out of the box. If I was, then it'd be a different story. The point of all this is that a 3 or 400 dollar knife should be great. If it's marketed as a professional tool for professionals, then professionals should like it. Now, their customer service really is pretty damned good, but sometimes you don't have a second chance to do things right. For a company named Zero Tolerance, they should understand that. Making a knife that won't fail is more important than making a knife that can be marketed well. I would also think that a company named Zero Tolerance would understand that, too.

I can understand those that defend the company, the 85% or so that haven't gotten a dud would and should not understand, but at the same time, if they're so diehard for the best, then they should demand that the other 15% be taken care of just like they were. Not through second, third, and sometimes fourth tries, but the first time, every time. That's more important than carbon fiber, titanium, bearing pivots, or whatever else they brought to the fore. Exacting quality control. Quality craftsmanship every time. No do overs. No time outs. Each and every damned knife you get will be the absolute best at the lowest cost possible. Period. No excuses. If they have to sacrifice something, then do it to get something that has literally, zero tolerance for mistakes. I'd rather have a perfectly made knife made of stainless steel and AUS6 that wont fail me than a knife with beautiful titanium, carbon fiber, the latest and greatest steel, but could fail me when the time comes. That's the professional in me. Each and every one of us, LEOs or not, have the very real possibility of being placed into the chamber. Each of us could be faced with death tomorrow, either our own, someone we love, or someone we haven't even met before. Each of us should look forward to going into that situation and performing the best we can. The ones who have confronted that choose to carry certain tools, and they demand function over form. Zero tolerance should understand that most of all.

 

[PURPLEDC]

But we are talking about different things. I never said that what happened didn't happen. I know it did. We have all seen his pictures. I am not in any way "disqualifying his experiences as being false" which is your accusation. I do take it as a blanket statement when some one refers to a design as proven unreliable. He has only recently qualified that statement with his "in my experience" and changing "proven unreliable" to "can be". So to clear this up so we can hopefully move on. I said what you said I said and I meant it. His claim of "proven unreliable" is inaccurate based on my experience. I have seen no proof in my own experience of a flawed design. "Proven" is a very strong word. If you use it, you should be prepared to prove it or risk having your statement inaccurate. Might be true for him, and I am not saying his experiences aren't true but to call it proven, you had better beable to proven it in my knife, or your, knife, or at least a number of knives, and we need real data for proof. Only ZT would know that info and they are still selling these things so to call it proven is wrong. All in my opinion of course.

We will have to agree to disagree. You have failed numerous times at seeing my point and I dont think there is a more simple way to put it. I could try again but I think my efforts will be in vain.

You're right, opinion based on fact.

"Come buy from us if you want a really, really nice, hard use knife that only sometimes sucks."

I'm not the only one who got a stinker out of the box. If I was, then it'd be a different story. The point of all this is that a 3 or 400 dollar knife should be great. If it's marketed as a professional tool for professionals, then professionals should like it. Now, their customer service really is pretty damned good, but sometimes you don't have a second chance to do things right. For a company named Zero Tolerance, they should understand that. Making a knife that won't fail is more important than making a knife that can be marketed well. I would also think that a company named Zero Tolerance would understand that, too.

I can understand those that defend the company, the 85% or so that haven't gotten a dud would and should not understand, but at the same time, if they're so diehard for the best, then they should demand that the other 15% be taken care of just like they were. Not through second, third, and sometimes fourth tries, but the first time, every time. That's more important than carbon fiber, titanium, bearing pivots, or whatever else they brought to the fore. Exacting quality control. Quality craftsmanship every time. No do overs. No time outs. Each and every damned knife you get will be the absolute best at the lowest cost possible. Period. No excuses. If they have to sacrifice something, then do it to get something that has literally, zero tolerance for mistakes. I'd rather have a perfectly made knife made of stainless steel and AUS6 that wont fail me than a knife with beautiful titanium, carbon fiber, the latest and greatest steel, but could fail me when the time comes. That's the professional in me. Each and every one of us, LEOs or not, have the very real possibility of being placed into the chamber. Each of us could be faced with death tomorrow, either our own, someone we love, or someone we haven't even met before. Each of us should look forward to going into that situation and performing the best we can. The ones who have confronted that choose to carry certain tools, and they demand function over form. Zero tolerance should understand that most of all.

For what its worth man, I am with you. Hell I think I am even more picky than you are because my life and the lives of others dont depend on a knife. So from my hobbyist standpoint I can handle a defect. That is if the company will admit it is defective and fix it. I saw your thread in GBU and I have had the same experience. I send a knife in for poor craftsmanship and I have to send it back 2-3 times before they get it right. Someone in another thread mentioned writing or typing a note. I can attest this is most useless as they never read it as nothing was properly addressed. Not even the second sentence where I requested they initial the letter or points I made so I know they read it.

I guess for me, I dont mind a company that screws up. What I mind the the denial that issues exist and even when you prove that something is off they use try to BS you into saying its ok and that we are being picky. Properly made knives dont have horribly off center blades, blades shouldnt have scratches in them and locks shouldnt fail. Your thread made me chuckle the most though. The guy from Kai is B'sing you saying that even though he sees what you are saying about the choil that its still in spec. Really? Because if he was looking at what I was looking at he would have noticed that the blade had been sharpened so deeply into the steel that the "choil" no longer even existed. That stuff bothers me. It also doesnt surprise me that they requested you not speak ill of a certain knife. I was requested via email on a couple of occasions not to speak of certain matters in public. That doesnt sit well with me either.

 

[RamZar]

I still think about getting a Knockout or Piston but then I think, what is that knife going to do that my 550, 0560s, or 301 can't? Plus they look better doing it

If you like aluminum handles try the new Kershaw Camber with S30V and US made for $77! Even better is ZT 0770 with Elmax which can be had for less than $120!

 

[celtic11]

I still think about getting a Knockout or Piston but then I think, what is that knife going to do that my 550, 0560s, or 301 can't? Plus they look better doing it

I got a Piston for Christmas last year. A couple months later I got a 566. After another few months I ended up selling the Piston. It was nice, but the ZT just seemed like a better, beefier version.

I still have more Kershaw than ZT but that's because the way that my bank account is set up..

I carry the 0770CF the most. I rotate in the 566, 550, 3 blurs, a chill and a G10 Cryo. The Chill and the Cryo are great knives for the money.

 

[craytab]

We will have to agree to disagree. You have failed numerous times at seeing my point and I dont think there is a more simple way to put it. I could try again but I think my efforts will be in vain.

Well, at least there is one thing we can completely agree on. I feel the same way :thumbup:

And to get back on topic.....

If you like aluminum handles try the new Kershaw Camber with S30V and US made for $77! Even better is ZT 0770 with Elmax which can be had for less than $120!

Believe me, I have eyed those 2! The Camber looks fantastic. The 0770 is a great deal with that awesome Elmax. Unfortunately, both are too short. I have found that my minimum prefered EDC blade length is 3.5". I had a 566 for a while but got rid of it because it never got carried. Not big enough. I like big, tough, reliable, over built folders

Well, not all the time, but for this thread lets just say yes. In all seriousness though, <3.5" just doesn't get carried.

 

[cricketdave]

Well my daughter carries a ZT566 in the field (Army) with nothing but fine performance and no lock fail or any other kind of fail. She's pried open ammo crates, cut a lot of MRE's open and cut sticks and rope for shelter. Wife carries a ZT560 (USPHS former Airforce nurse) used it to pry open medical supply crates on her last deployment again no lock fail no issues, cut what needed to be cut. When I was Army I carried the plain old stainless folder that everyone was issued no lock and never had it close on my hand. Of course I carried a fixed blade for harsher use. Now I carry a ZT560 also and have used it on the ranch, cutting hay bales, pried stuff when needed and I didn't have something else at hand. No failures no problems. Holds a great edge and the locks have been rock solid. Before the 560 I carried a 550 and 566 none of them ever had a lock failure of any kind or any issues with the blades. Just solid tough performance.

 

[PURPLEDC]

Well, at least there is one thing we can completely agree on. I feel the same way :thumbup:

Thats a relief. I hate repeating myself for no reason.

 

[craytab]

Thats a relief. I hate repeating myself for no reason.

Me too!

 

[scotchleaf]

ZT is not KAI's answer to law enforcement and military. I know no one in the law enforcement or military world that would carry a 0454 because of the price and possibly of losing it or breaking it.

True, I gave my nephew (who is a medic in the Army) an old Kershaw (usa made), which got stolen.

 

[sierra1bushcraft]

I love ZT knifes, I've been carrying a Zt 350 for over a year and absolutely love it. It is a super robust just absolutely bulletproof knife.

 

[Pachoe]

Loving the ZT0300BW

 

[Esav Benyamin]

And on that note, as we head into another new year, next thread, next time.