Kershaw vs. Zero tolerance

[RamZar]

Bodog,

You had three 0560CBCF. All purchased new? All had issues? What exactly were the issues?

Regarding lockup some people like it early, some late and some in the middle. I've had all three types and neither failed.

Also, having issues with user folders is not something I regard as an issue with the manufacturer. Of course, depending on what the previous owners did.

You must be very unlucky!

 

[celtic11]

Out of curiosity.. I took my 3 ZT folders (0550, 0566, and 0770) tonight and tried to get any of them to close on me without disengaging the lock myself couldn't do it. I'm not going to go abusing my knives to prove a point, but just using my hands and trying to force them closed I couldn't get so much as flex in the lock bar on any of them.

 

[Knave]

I've owned, and used, several of the American-made Kershaws (mostly Ken Onion designs) and have been very pleased with the quality and value. That said, ZT is definitely a step up. The fit and finish is excellent and they truly are built like tanks. I can't recommend ZT enough.

 

[bodog]

Bodog,

You had three 0560CBCF. All purchased new? All had issues? What exactly were the issues?

Regarding lockup some people like it early, some late and some in the middle. I've had all three types and neither failed.

Also, having issues with user folders is not something I regard as an issue with the manufacturer. Of course, depending on what the previous owners did.

You must be very unlucky!

If you care, you may want to look in the GBU folder, the thread is labeled KAI Warranty Service or something similar. Some people are so invested in the company that they fail to hear what I'm saying. Nothing is wrong with someone wanting or buying a ZT if that's what they want. Hell, I've owned several and still own two. This whole thing started with someone saying that ZT is KAI'S answer for military and police. I said not really because of x and y, but they are pushing what is capable of a production knife company, which is good. I also said that in an emergency, I prefer to have something that won't fail, which is a thick fixed blade. For everything else, a relatively thin bladed folder is good. I said in my opinion, ZT knives don't make sense for my uses. I don't see a point in having a folder for rough duty unless they fix the known issues with their locks, and that same problem is there for most folding knife manufacturers. Since we were talking about ZT, I showed and explained exactly what I was talking about with their lack of attention when grinding lock bars and/ or lock faces. I explained that it's happened multiple times, enough to where their locks shouldn't be trusted, also a problem with multiple other companies. The whole reason I now carry a fixed blade is because I don't trust knives that fold, precisely because of ZT's inability to get it right, even though that kind of rough usage us what they're marketed and designed for.

It seems that all they're truly concerned with is not having lock rock, blade play, and blade stickiness. Well, that doesn't cut it for me, whether it's KAI or any other company. If they spent more time ensuring well ground locks and less time worrying about 3D machined titanium, then I would definitely reconsider. But well ground locks aren't able to be marketed and hyped like 3D machined titanium.

It's like a car, it has the best engine, best interior, best body shape, but if they use crappy tie rods, then it's all for nothing because they'll fail you when you using the car how it's made to be used. What I'm saying is that the engine should match the other components. People driving the car around at 60 miles an hour to the grocery store every couple of days probably shouldn't and wouldn't worry about something like tie rods, and truth be told, those tie rods are probably good enough for them. But that's not what the car is marketed for. The car is marketed for race car drivers, but race car drivers don't drive it. So what do race car drivers drive? They don't drive this car marketed to them, but a bunch of non-race car drivers do, and flame the hell out of a race car driver when he pops up on a car forum and says "hey, you guys drive it all you want, I won't and this is why" Most race car drivers drive Hondas and Toyotas, and most are happy with them. They definitely don't see a point in paying a lot of money for this suped up version and think guys are kind of crazy for buying them. Well, to a point, they're right, but they're also ignorant about what CAN be done with a car, they're drivers, not manufacturers or mechanics. But every once in a while, a race car driver takes enough interest to learn about cars, and can appreciate what this suped up car can do, but they warn about certain aspects that may be dangerous if the car is used as a race car. So in the end, the car marketed as a race fails as a race car because of the tie rods, but everything else is really well done. That can be appreciated, but it still likely won't be driven by professionals because they know that one, you can drive to the grocery store in a car far cheaper than this super car, and two, when it comes to professional duties, they need a different car, one actually built for that purpose and not built for driving to the store but marketed like it's a race car.

If that makes sense.

 

[bodog]

Or watches. I don't really know anything about watches but I'll give it a shot. I wear a timex. It's a pretty tough little watch that does what I need it to. But say i wanted to step it up so I buy a 1000 dollar dive watch. I like the watch. It's pretty. It fits well. It uses innovative materials. And it's marketed as a dive watch for professional divers and navy seals and the like. But then, a Navy seal or professional diver who cared enough to learn about watches comes up and says, well, in my experience, the company making that 1000 dollar watch is pretty nice, but they have failed to seal the components correctly, which could lead to failure if you actually went to any real depth under water. If they fix that and consistently produced good seals, your watch would be good. Then I come up and scream "heresy!" I paid for this watch, there are videos of this watch being taken to 100 meters and it still works! I wear it everyday and it still works great!" And the diver calmly replies back, "yes, but do you dive with it everyday? Does your life depend on that watch? There are other watches made specifically for diving that don't have these problems, and even this same company produces good watches every once in awhile that are good for diving, but most aren't. If you want a timekeeping device meant for going deep, then you should make sure that it is properly sealed." Then I scream back " I swim with my watch all the time, it never fails me!" And he says "yes, but that's not professional diving. If you like it, then wear it, but it shouldn't be marketed to professional divers, or at least it shouldn't be marketed as a watch MEANT for professional divers, because this company, and others too, have this consistent flaw in their designs, I wear this watch over here for everyday purposes, and I wear this watch which is bulkier and less attractive for diving because it works, it's proven to be reliable, but I can see how you'll be happy with the watch you have because you won't likely go do 100 meter depths, so wear it and enjoy it, but just know that it's not a diver's watch." Then he get blasted by everyone for saying that like people actually produce that watch or have a vested interest in the company that makes it, which makes no sense.

 

[craytab]

Again, obtuse. One was great but I sold it because it just wasn't for me, truth be told I regret that sale. One is good and my wife carries it but I can't test it without my wife flipping out. One is kind of acceptable, I kept it simply because I don't want to lose even more money by selling it so yeah, I kept it. I just can't trust it because of the half assed grind on the lock, i still like the steel, flipper, and ergos. One was sold at a big discount because of a weak detent and the same lock issues. Two were sent in and kept by KAI because they were failures, one of those, again, terrible lock grinds. Go look in the GBU thread if you want to see pics because you don't believe me. I started that thread so it shouldn't be hard to find. Should I really need to go through 6 knives from the same company to find two that unequivocally pass inspection?

I never said I didn't believe you. In fact I said I had no reason not to. I remember that thread in the GBU.

If you care, you may want to look in the GBU folder, the thread is labeled KAI Warranty Service or something similar. Some people are so invested in the company that they fail to hear what I'm saying. Nothing is wrong with someone wanting or buying a ZT if that's what they want. Hell, I've owned several and still own two. This whole thing started with someone saying that ZT is KAI'S answer for military and police. I said not really because of x and y, but they are pushing what is capable of a production knife company, which is good. I also said that in an emergency, I prefer to have something that won't fail, which is a thick fixed blade. For everything else, a relatively thin bladed folder is good. I said in my opinion, ZT knives don't make sense for my uses. I don't see a point in having a folder for rough duty unless they fix the known issues with their locks, and that same problem is there for most folding knife manufacturers. Since we were talking about ZT, I showed and explained exactly what I was talking about with their lack of attention when grinding lock bars and/ or lock faces. I explained that it's happened multiple times, enough to where their locks shouldn't be trusted, also a problem with multiple other companies. The whole reason I now carry a fixed blade is because I don't trust knives that fold, precisely because of ZT's inability to get it right, even though that kind of rough usage us what they're marketed and designed for.

It seems that all they're truly concerned with is not having lock rock, blade play, and blade stickiness. Well, that doesn't cut it for me, whether it's KAI or any other company. If they spent more time ensuring well ground locks and less time worrying about 3D machined titanium, then I would definitely reconsider. But well ground locks aren't able to be marketed and hyped like 3D machined titanium.
.

The problem becomes when you say all x on y product has been proven unreliable. You seem to have gone back on it a bit now by saying it is your opinion and you also have had other issues with ZT. But then in the same breath you say their locks should not be trusted. No, in you opinion and in some of the examples you personally have had you did not trust the locks. Don't blanket your opinion to all of our experiences. I and many other don't share your opinion. It doesn't make either wrong necessarily, as long as we keep in mind they are opinions based on personal experience rather than empirical fact.

 

[celtic11]

If you care, you may want to look in the GBU folder, the thread is labeled KAI Warranty Service or something similar. Some people are so invested in the company that they fail to hear what I'm saying. Nothing is wrong with someone wanting or buying a ZT if that's what they want. Hell, I've owned several and still own two. This whole thing started with someone saying that ZT is KAI'S answer for military and police. I said not really because of x and y, but they are pushing what is capable of a production knife company, which is good. I also said that in an emergency, I prefer to have something that won't fail, which is a thick fixed blade. For everything else, a relatively thin bladed folder is good. I said in my opinion, ZT knives don't make sense for my uses. I don't see a point in having a folder for rough duty unless they fix the known issues with their locks, and that same problem is there for most folding knife manufacturers. Since we were talking about ZT, I showed and explained exactly what I was talking about with their lack of attention when grinding lock bars and/ or lock faces. I explained that it's happened multiple times, enough to where their locks shouldn't be trusted, also a problem with multiple other companies. The whole reason I now carry a fixed blade is because I don't trust knives that fold, precisely because of ZT's inability to get it right, even though that kind of rough usage us what they're marketed and designed for.

It seems that all they're truly concerned with is not having lock rock, blade play, and blade stickiness. Well, that doesn't cut it for me, whether it's KAI or any other company. If they spent more time ensuring well ground locks and less time worrying about 3D machined titanium, then I would definitely reconsider. But well ground locks aren't able to be marketed and hyped like 3D machined titanium.

It's like a car, it has the best engine, best interior, best body shape, but if they use crappy tie rods, then it's all for nothing because they'll fail you when you using the car how it's made to be used. What I'm saying is that the engine should match the other components. People driving the car around at 60 miles an hour to the grocery store every couple of days probably shouldn't and wouldn't worry about something like tie rods, and truth be told, those tie rods are probably good enough for them. But that's not what the car is marketed for. The car is marketed for race car drivers, but race car drivers don't drive it. So what do race car drivers drive? They don't drive this car marketed to them, but a bunch of non-race car drivers do, and flame the hell out of a race car driver when he pops up on a car forum and says "hey, you guys drive it all you want, I won't and this is why" Most race car drivers drive Hondas and Toyotas, and most are happy with them. They definitely don't see a point in paying a lot of money for this suped up version and think guys are kind of crazy for buying them. Well, to a point, they're right, but they're also ignorant about what CAN be done with a car, they're drivers, not manufacturers or mechanics. But every once in a while, a race car driver takes enough interest to learn about cars, and can appreciate what this suped up car can do, but they warn about certain aspects that may be dangerous if the car is used as a race car. So in the end, the car marketed as a race fails as a race car because of the tie rods, but everything else is really well done. That can be appreciated, but it still likely won't be driven by professionals because they know that one, you can drive to the grocery store in a car far cheaper than this super car, and two, when it comes to professional duties, they need a different car, one actually built for that purpose and not built for driving to the store but marketed like it's a race car.

If that makes sense.

You're projecting your experiences onto the whole company as if it is fact. I have 2 ZT frame locks and I'm sitting here telling you they're both ground perfectly and lock up rock solid at 50% so why does your experience represent KAIs ability to grind locks while mine doesnt?

When you say an over built folder with a frame lock doesn't make sense to you, no one cares. When you say their locks are proven failures and they can't properly grind lock geometry is when people get touchy. Your experiences are the opposite of the great majority of this forums, yet you act as though yours is the truth while all of us are just blind homers.

 

[bodog]

You're projecting your experiences onto the whole company as if it is fact. I have 2 ZT frame locks and I'm sitting here telling you they're both ground perfectly and lock up rock solid at 50% so why does your experience represent KAIs ability to grind locks while mine doesnt?

When you say an over built folder with a frame lock doesn't make sense to you, no one cares. When you say their locks are proven failures and they can't properly grind lock geometry is when people get touchy. Your experiences are the opposite of the great majority of this forums, yet you act as though yours is the truth while all of us are just blind homers.

I didn't say they WILL fail, I said they CAN be unreliable. There's a difference. I said that any real uncertain reliability is not something I want to deal with. I also said that IN MY EXPERIENCE the company does not produce locks that are reliable enough for ME to trust. I said that if YOU can and will, that's ok. We each have different needs and wants. I did not push you or anyone else to accept my desires. I said that I had this level of experience with the company and that, to me, makes them something other than what they purport themselves to be. I'm glad you have a different experience. If you find yourself in a situation where either your life or someone else's life depends on the knife you carry, I hope that it does not fail you. Me, I don't want to hope. I want to KNOW that I can rely on it. So I use something else. To each his own.

 

[PURPLEDC]

I hate to say it but bodog and I share similar experiences. about 9 years ago I got into kershaw in a big way. At one point it was all I collected. I think I was even one of the first USA citizens with a scavenger because I imported one when they werent available for sale to the public. I was a huge huge fan. But I have simply had bad luck with their quality control. I have had a lot of lock failures. Most were in the Kershaw line and mainly the blur model. But one of the scavengers from zt had lock issues and would close with little force applied. I had a 0560 with a bad elmax blade that I barely used yet dulled extremely quickly. When I tried to bring the edge back on the edge pro I discovered the blade grind was uneven so when I used the same angle for both sides the edge was 1/16" wide on one side and almost a 1/4 on the other. And even though it dulled quickly none of my stones wanted to bite into that steel. I had 2 new 0777M390's. One came out of the box with a long scratch on the blade and pivot as if someone slipped screwing it together. That knife also had a stop pin that was so crooked It only contacted the blade on the far right side when opened. That was promptly returned. The second one I got was better but still had a few scratches in the blade that werent part of the stonewashing process.

I had a 0600 that had such late lockup that it made it hard to get your thumb in to close the lock. I sent it in and when they tried mating a new blade to it they found that the lock had been cut too short somehow and no other blade would work. They replaced it and the replacement came with several scratches in the blade, a non existent detent and a severely off center blade. I sent that one back and got another which wasnt that bad. The blade had one scratch but it was centered and had a decent detent. The point is not everyone has had the stellar performance and quality that most people rave about. But what really sealed the deal for me and has me not buying their products was being told that perhaps I was expecting a bit too much from a production company and that maybe the brand just wasnt for me. And this person in a round about way told me that if I ever had a problem with their products again to not come to him with the issue. I simply couldnt agree with this, because when you drop over $300 on a knife yeah, I expect a higher level of execution not just materials.

I would suggest that if you have an issue with your lock to send it to ZT for warranty repair. I and many many other people have had absolutely no problems with our locks. This makes your claims completely inaccurate based on our experiences.

all it really means is that you didnt get knives that had poor locks. That is it, nothing more. Saying that someone else's experience is inaccurate based on your own being different is really the only inaccuracy here. Because if you flip it around by his experience your account is inaccurate. This is what I really dont understand about die hard fans of any company. It would appear that they defend unconditionally with no real need to do so. If your mileage varied then great, we are all happy that you have had only positive experiences to report. I just dont understand what is is with ZT and its really hardcore followers who seemingly desire to either sweep any reports of quality control problems under a rug or disqualify those experiences as being false. You know I drove a Datsun 280ZX as my first real car for 7 years. It was the best car I ever owned. Plowed through snow and never gave me problems. But that doesnt mean every datsun ever made is as good of a car as that was. And just because I had nothing but positive things to say about it doesnt mean that everyone who doesnt is lying or mistaken. It just means we have had different experiences.

 

[craytab]

I didn't say they WILL fail,

So what exactly do you mean when you say "they have been proven unreliable"? Cause that sounds a lot like certain failure at some point. If something is unreliable doesn't that mean it will fail?

I said they CAN be unreliable.

No, you said they are proven unreliable.

There's a difference. I said that any real uncertain reliability is not something I want to deal with. I also said that IN MY EXPERIENCE the company does not produce locks that are reliable enough for ME to trust. I said that if YOU can and will, that's ok. We each have different needs and wants. I did not push you or anyone else to accept my desires. I said that I had this level of experience with the company and that, to me, makes them something other than what they purport themselves to be. I'm glad you have a different experience. If you find yourself in a situation where either your life or someone else's life depends on the knife you carry, I hope that it does not fail you. Me, I don't want to hope. I want to KNOW that I can rely on it. So I use something else. To each his own.

Well, I am glad you have changed your tune from "they have been proven unreliable" to "they can be unreliable". There is a huge difference between these two statements with the later being much more reasonable.

 

[craytab]

all it really means is that you didnt get knives that had poor locks. That is it, nothing more.

Right! I don't expect it to mean more. I am not the one claiming the the design and execution is flawed. I am not claim that the lock has bean "proven unreliable". I simply made statements about my experiences.

Saying that someone else's experience is inaccurate based on your own being different is really the only inaccuracy here.

I never said anyone else's experience weren't accurate. In fact if you read my post I don't question his experience. What I do question is the statement that all ZT products have locks that are "proven unreliable". Based on my experience this is not correct. Has he handled every ZT? Does he know for sure every lock has been proven unreliable? No. All he knows for sure is his own experience. And if you have noticed he has backed off this statement.

This is what I really don't understand about die hard fans of any company.

Not a die hard fan. I have lots of blades from lots of companies. Mostly fixed blades. ZT is not the company I have the most blades from. I do not collect them. I buy and use them though.

It would appear that they defend unconditionally with no real need to do so. If your mileage varied then great, we are all happy that you have had only positive experiences to report. I just dont understand what is is with ZT and its really hardcore followers who seemingly desire to either sweep any reports of quality control problems under a rug or disqualify those experiences as being false.

I know that is what other people have done but I certainly haven't so please don't lump me in with that crowd. No where in this thread will you find me disqualifying anyone's experience. What I do though is point out that the blanket statement that ZTs locks have been "proven unreliable" is inaccurate as it relates to I and other people's experiences. Don't tell me what my experience is or should be and pass it off as fact. It is fine to have you own opinion based on your own experience but at the end of the day it is just your opinion and your experience so please refer to it as such.

 

[bodog]

So what exactly do you mean when you say "they have been proven unreliable"? Cause that sounds a lot like certain failure at some point. If something is unreliable doesn't that mean it will fail?



No, you said they are proven unreliable.



Well, I am glad you have changed your tune from "they have been proven unreliable" to "they can be unreliable". There is a huge difference between these two statements with the later being much more reasonable.

If something is not reliable, then it is by default unreliable. If 4 out of 6 knives I've owned made by them have had bad locks, then it's not reliable for anyone else, unless they have a specific knife in hand that they can inspect, and even then, they have to know what makes a good lock or have seen enough to ID a bad one. If 99 percent of their produced knives had good lock grinds, then I'd say they were reliable with the remaining one percent just the cost of doing business. When 5, 10, or 15 percent have bad locks, then, that is unreliable manufacturing. My personal experience is 66, or 2/3, have bad locks. But let's keep it at 85, 90, or 95 percent may be a good product, but you cannot rely on the company to do it right. For a knife priced as high and with the specific marketing strategy applied to ZT, it's in the name itself, zero tolerance, then one would assume that there would be ZERO defects, or else it should be named something else and marketed differently.

So while it IS proven unreliable, and the knife CAN fail due to a bad lock, it doesn't necessarily mean that EVERY knife is unreliable. I didn't change my tune, I tried explaining in different ways to people who refuse to admit that the knives, in fact, don't have a ZERO TOLERANCE for defects.

 

[bodog]

Premium quality, professional knives that our customers can depend on everyday. I don't find that to be all that true and that's the whole point. They're not for professionals to depend on everyday, unless that professional wants a knife that may very well fold up on them when using it hard. That's concerning to me.

 

[PURPLEDC]

I never said anyone else's experience weren't accurate.

I would suggest that if you have an issue with your lock to send it to ZT for warranty repair. I and many many other people have had absolutely no problems with our locks. This makes your claims completely inaccurate based on our experiences.

Im not trying to be combative for combative sake. But what we type is open to interpretation. When I read his statements I took as "in his experience they have been proven unreliable for him". I didnt take it as a blanket statement or him speaking for others. You interpreted it as something completely different. My reason for bolding the above is because you did in fact say that you and others have had absolutely no problems with your locks and that it makes his claims completely inaccurate based on your experiences. So that really isnt even interpretation. That is exactly what you wrote. You may have said something different in other posts but you did in fact write the quote above. And in doing such you yourself could be views as having changed your tune. What we write isnt always exactly what we mean. And it doesnt mean anyone is back pedaling. It simply means we either were misunderstood or we made a mistake in our wording.

What I do question is the statement that all ZT products have locks that are "proven unreliable". Based on my experience this is not correct. .

I never saw him utilize the word all. He stated that "they have proven to be unreliable". A person from your point of view could ad lib and assume he means that all ZT knives are unreliable as a blanket statement but it is still projecting and you would be making assumptions. Just as I was making an assumption when I said I thought he was making those statements in relation to his own experiences and nothing more. The only fact here is that the only person who really knows what he meant is bodog.

I know that is what other people have done but I certainly haven't so please don't lump me in with that crowd. No where in this thread will you find me disqualifying anyone's experience. What I do though is point out that the blanket statement that ZTs locks have been "proven unreliable" is inaccurate as it relates to I and other people's experiences. Don't tell me what my experience is or should be and pass it off as fact. It is fine to have you own opinion based on your own experience but at the end of the day it is just your opinion and your experience so please refer to it as such.

Apologies to that effect. I have just seen a lot of defending of this brand. At one point I used to defend them too. But then i thought about it and I asked myself what am I gaining by covering for them. What does me essentially lying for the company and pretending I never have any problems with their products do for anyone? Sure it helps keep Kai a stellar record. But I look at it this way. When new people come to this forum and they want to know about their products if we all keep our issues on the hush hush we portray the company as perfect. People read nothing but good things. Then they may get a knife that isnt up to those expectations and then they want answers. When they come back and go "hey everyone told me these guys were great and they never had quality problems and then I get this whats the deal?" Then we berate them and tell them that they should shut up and send it in for warranty service and there is no reason to make mountains out of mole hills.

Im sorry I just dont agree with that. I am all about being a fan of a company. I even understand product loyalty. But sometimes I just get the impression that there is almost a Kai cult that protects the company. And at some point some of these followers are either lying to others about their experiences or they simply dont have the eye for detail or standards some others have gained with years of collecting under their belt. I have collected knives for 25 years. And I have had over 100 different kai products. And I can say that maybe 2 or 3 of those products were without any flaw of any kind. So for me when I see so many reports of complete and total superlative fit and finish, I either question the ability to spot flaws or I question the honesty. But that is only because my experiences are so much different than so many others. But my wild conspiracy theories wouldnt be fueled if these reports of perfection were not also peppered with these same people telling anyone with a problem to be quiet. It doesnt help that some of these people that ask others keep quiet have received some pretty impressive donations to their collection from Kai.

Either way, you have stated you are not one of these individuals. So I have respect that you are speaking simply from your own experiences and have no other motives. I am simply an individual who believes in the truth whether that is good or bad. I dont believe in covering up for anyone. If you get a bunk knife you should be able to say something. If you get a perfect knife, just the same. But I dont think anyone should have to keep silent and only be allowed to speak up if warranty doesnt fix the knife. Even in those cases I have seen some guys send a knife back 3-4 separate times with still no resolution. And those people are STILL told to be quiet and send it back in and talk to so and so and they will make it right. My feelings are if you have nothing to hide and are really that good, no one needs to be quiet about anything. Especially when the company claims we are such an insignificant contributor to their profit margins. Our voices shouldnt have any ill effects.

 

[bodog]

Im not trying to be combative for combative sake. But what we type is open to interpretation. When I read his statements I took as "in his experience they have been proven unreliable for him". I didnt take it as a blanket statement or him speaking for others. You interpreted it as something completely different. My reason for bolding the above is because you did in fact say that you and others have had absolutely no problems with your locks and that it makes his claims completely inaccurate based on your experiences. So that really isnt even interpretation. That is exactly what you wrote. You may have said something different in other posts but you did in fact write the quote above. And in doing such you yourself could be views as having changed your tune. What we write isnt always exactly what we mean. And it doesnt mean anyone is back pedaling. It simply means we either were misunderstood or we made a mistake in our wording.



I never saw him utilize the word all. He stated that "they have proven to be unreliable". A person from your point of view could ad lib and assume he means that all ZT knives are unreliable as a blanket statement but it is still projecting and you would be making assumptions. Just as I was making an assumption when I said I thought he was making those statements in relation to his own experiences and nothing more. The only fact here is that the only person who really knows what he meant is bodog.

You're pretty right in that I'm only speaking about my experiences, and my experiences with ZT have been 50% bad or terrible, 33% good or great, and 12% bad but not bad enough to bitch about it. Others may have all of their experiences be great, and that's awesome. What I'm worried about is some guy who may not know knives all that well pull 200 bucks or more, that they had to scrounge and save up, to buy a "premium, professional grade" knife and get a shoddy example like what I've seen 4 out of 6 times myself. I would hope no one gets the stuff I've had, but the only entity that can ensure that is ZT, and their own statements have proven that "manufacturing tolerances" aren't that big of a deal. That's what a rep from their own company stated in an email and I posted in that GBU thread. They'll just say that they're "handcrafted" to excuse locks that would likely fail under use. That's not zero tolerance.

I have to say, they fixed it, but it shouldn't have been that way to begin with, and I can say at least I know enough about knives to have seen that failure coming. Other guys might not, depending on their experience. I don't want to be an indirect cause of someone losing their life because a "premium, professional grade" tool failed when they needed it by sitting on the sidelines and not mentioning what I've personally seen. It's not a war against ZT or the people who have had great experiences with them. It's simply a word of caution to those who may not know to look for certain things that really do matter and hold the manufacturer up to their own claims. Don't just sit idly by trusting that the name, marketing, and thick blades will perform when needed. That's what should be expected from a "premium, professional grade" product.

When a major law enforcement department or branch of the military puts a product out for use, standards are set, multiple vendors are solicited, and rigorous tests are performed to ensure that a product really is for "professional" use. Would the FBI purchase firearms for their agents if there was a 15% failure rate? Would the army or marines? Would the LAPD? I think they wouldn't, especially when it comes to tools meant to save lives, or even just possibly save lives. I don't think demanding the same standards is unreasonable for a knife manufacturer who claims to sell products for that very purpose. It's not the 85% who have good or great examples of of the product that's an issue, the standards are to protect the other 15%, if the product is, in fact, for professionals in the line of fire.

If they're for other people who can live with a failure rate of even 5%, then so be it, but market it as such.

 

[guyleone]

Love my current ZT0350BW for what it is...a great folder, and I would even say a professional grade folder. but it is a folder, it lives in my pocket and is pulled out for small cutting jobs.

 

[craytab]

My reason for bolding the above is because you did in fact say that you and others have had absolutely no problems with your locks and that it makes his claims completely inaccurate based on your experiences. So that really isnt even interpretation. That is exactly what you wrote. You may have said something different in other posts but you did in fact write the quote above. And in doing such you yourself could be views as having changed your tune. What we write isnt always exactly what we mean. And it doesnt mean anyone is back pedaling. It simply means we either were misunderstood or we made a mistake in our wording.

But we are talking about different things. I never said that what happened didn't happen. I know it did. We have all seen his pictures. I am not in any way "disqualifying his experiences as being false" which is your accusation. I do take it as a blanket statement when some one refers to a design as proven unreliable. He has only recently qualified that statement with his "in my experience" and changing "proven unreliable" to "can be". So to clear this up so we can hopefully move on. I said what you said I said and I meant it. His claim of "proven unreliable" is inaccurate based on my experience. I have seen no proof in my own experience of a flawed design. "Proven" is a very strong word. If you use it, you should be prepared to prove it or risk having your statement inaccurate. Might be true for him, and I am not saying his experiences aren't true but to call it proven, you had better beable to proven it in my knife, or your, knife, or at least a number of knives, and we need real data for proof. Only ZT would know that info and they are still selling these things so to call it proven is wrong. All in my opinion of course.

 

[craytab]

If something is not reliable, then it is by default unreliable. If 4 out of 6 knives I've owned made by them have had bad locks, then it's not reliable for anyone else, unless they have a specific knife in hand that they can inspect, and even then, they have to know what makes a good lock or have seen enough to ID a bad one. If 99 percent of their produced knives had good lock grinds, then I'd say they were reliable with the remaining one percent just the cost of doing business. When 5, 10, or 15 percent have bad locks, then, that is unreliable manufacturing. My personal experience is 66, or 2/3, have bad locks. But let's keep it at 85, 90, or 95 percent may be a good product, but you cannot rely on the company to do it right. For a knife priced as high and with the specific marketing strategy applied to ZT, it's in the name itself, zero tolerance, then one would assume that there would be ZERO defects, or else it should be named something else and marketed differently.

So while it IS proven unreliable, and the knife CAN fail due to a bad lock, it doesn't necessarily mean that EVERY knife is unreliable. I didn't change my tune, I tried explaining in different ways to people who refuse to admit that the knives, in fact, don't have a ZERO TOLERANCE for defects.

Still using the term proven. I give up.....oh and nice ZT blast at the end....I knew it would eventually come to that...

 

[SunOfAtom]

If something is not reliable, then it is by default unreliable. If 4 out of 6 knives I've owned made by them have had bad locks, then it's not reliable for anyone else, unless they have a specific knife in hand that they can inspect, and even then, they have to know what makes a good lock or have seen enough to ID a bad one. If 99 percent of their produced knives had good lock grinds, then I'd say they were reliable with the remaining one percent just the cost of doing business. When 5, 10, or 15 percent have bad locks, then, that is unreliable manufacturing. My personal experience is 66, or 2/3, have bad locks. But let's keep it at 85, 90, or 95 percent may be a good product, but you cannot rely on the company to do it right. For a knife priced as high and with the specific marketing strategy applied to ZT, it's in the name itself, zero tolerance, then one would assume that there would be ZERO defects, or else it should be named something else and marketed differently.

So while it IS proven unreliable, and the knife CAN fail due to a bad lock, it doesn't necessarily mean that EVERY knife is unreliable. I didn't change my tune, I tried explaining in different ways to people who refuse to admit that the knives, in fact, don't have a ZERO TOLERANCE for defects.

Perhaps I can try a different angle to clarify the point. Do you rely on a gun for your job? I don't care what manufacturer or model it is, per your definition, it is proven unreliable. Do you drive a police car? Yep, proven unreliable. Radios, batteries, ammunition, flashlights, all proven unreliable. How do you get through the day having to rely on nothing but proven unreliable items?

While I am against making blanket statements, I feel I can safely state that no manufacturer makes products that will 100% of the time stand up to whatever a customer feels it should stand up to. Do you not see the problem with your unreachably high criteria?

And again, why is this being made a ZT issue? Name one knife manufacturer that has never produced something with a defect. One. Defending ZT against these bizarre claims does not make me a "fanboi" it makes me a rational, reasonable human being. I would do the same thing in any of the other forums.

 

[bodog]

Perhaps I can try a different angle to clarify the point. Do you rely on a gun for your job? I don't care what manufacturer or model it is, per your definition, it is proven unreliable. Do you drive a police car? Yep, proven unreliable. Radios, batteries, ammunition, flashlights, all proven unreliable. How do you get through the day having to rely on nothing but proven unreliable items?

While I am against making blanket statements, I feel I can safely state that no manufacturer makes products that will 100% of the time stand up to whatever a customer feels it should stand up to. Do you not see the problem with your unreachably high criteria?

And again, why is this being made a ZT issue? Name one knife manufacturer that has never produced something with a defect. One. Defending ZT against these bizarre claims does not make me a "fanboi" it makes me a rational, reasonable human being. I would do the same thing in any of the other forums.

I guess you didn't read my post about the testing done to "professional grade" products issued to law enforcement and the military. There is no testing done by independent researchers with knives for some specific organization, so we have to rely on more or less anecdotal evidence. When a law enforcement officer presents his findings through honest to God rigorous testing, take it for what it's worth. One honest man's opinion based on what he's been presented. I listed some basic things I do, how I use my tools, and what I expect of them. ZT has a failing score based solely on what I've been presented. If you choose to not accept those findings, then that's your prerogative. I can only say that I'm a professional that they market to, and I don't find their products worthy of being carried, with the exception of one or two out of six, which happened to be at least good. That's not a good track record for any company. If I was issued a pistol that kept failing, but not only that, 4 or 5 percent or more of my coworkers experienced similar failures, I can guarantee that a serious re-evaluation would be undertaken, poste haste. None of the other redeeming factors would matter at that point, it's the failure rate that matters.