Knife ambassadors

bernard levine posted this in his forum when asked about a particular custom knife

bernard_levine said:
The custom knife market is a fashion market. The serious money follows the newest fashions.

Lots of newbies, also folks like you with one or two knives, don't want this to be so, but it is despite their desires. The people spending the money make the rules.

It's a lot like couture clothing or luxury cars. Most older once-fashionable items are just obsolete, quaint and old-fashioned, although a few might eventually start to attract collector interest -- but collecting of vintage fashion items (including custom knives) is itself also subject to fashion changes.

Pugh is not among today's fashionable few, though he might have his own insular following. What you need is a buyer who does not realize this. ;) You may have found and lost one at that show. Did you get his card?

BRL...
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do you agree?

a lot of the discussion here relates to the appearance and styling of knives. that is a useful thing for objects that are purchased primarily to be admired.

will the popular knives of today still be admired in 10 or 15 years?

how much "knife expertise" is actually "fashion expertise"?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RL View Post
The bottom line is that you can't give meaningful feedback until you have seen the knife in person (or at the VERY minimum, handled other knives by the same maker)...otherwise it is like trying to argue whether a ferrari is a better drive than a lamborghini based on pictures...until you get in the driver's seat...

RL
Disagree with this completely. To suggest you can tell nothing (or nothing "meaningful") from a photograph is as unsupportable a proposition as suggesting you can tell everything from a photograph.

Photographs show plenty - though not everything, to be sure. The aesthetic appeal of a knife (or lack thereof) will largely be evident in a photograph. Certain functional aspects will also be apparent. The "feel" of the knife in hand and the performance of the blade in use can't be communicated in two dimensions, but that hardly supports the conclusion that "you can't give meaningful feedback" based on a photo.

You can't tell how a Ferrari drives from a photo, but you can discern the aesthetic differences between it and a minivan. Certain functional differences will also be quite apparent.

I have to take a position somewhere between these two thoughts.

I own a knife that took "best of" in its class at Little Rock and for some reason the knife is yet to photograph well. The positive remarks that were expressed here about this knife were primarily from the collectors that had the opportunity to examine the knife first hand.

I've also had the opportunity to closely examine some of the knives that have been shown in this forum and have been enthusiastically endorsed based on the photo's that were posted. In several cases I did not feel that the photo's posted were truly representative of the actual fit , finish, and balance of the knife.

I have purchased knives based on a photo but only from dealers with a clearly worded return policy and no restocking fees.

To borrow a previous quote from the Forum, " until you have the knife in hand your are only voting for a photo."

Paul
 
Bandaid,

Bernard is pretty much incorrect.

Lets address Jim Pugh (his example). Jim made several knives and put cast animal heads as the pommel of the knife. Ray Beers did this to a lesser degree with Birds.

In both cases, both men were excellent craftsman who basically peaked, and then hit a plateau. Unable to build on their success they became known primarily for this one "feature".

As such Jim Pugh knives, if the do sell, sell for less than 50% of their original value.

I think Bernard used the animal and bird features with regards to his "fashion" comment.

This is where I disagree. The lack of continued success had to do with lack of marketing and/or business planning.

While their knife fashion was still popular, they should have created another style. Either something along line extension or do completely different so as not to be "put in a box".

Both makers violated this basic marketing principle.

Yes, those with unlimited funds can steer the market in the way they want it to go. Generally this is for short term.

As we have seen in 2007, both the Onion and Boguszewski have started to collapse. Due not to the makers, but to the main primary and after market buyers pulling out and moving to other areas Anyone seen the record prices for the Michale Walker knives lately???

This is another area in which collectors need good intelligence. Know the players and you will know the short term trends.

Too many "club" members buy high and sell low. This is due directly to their lack of independent thought.

As a collector you have to do your homework and develop your criteria as to what to buy and what not to buy. When to buy/sell/hold.

The time it takes to reach the maximum level and the time it takes to reach selling a knife for a loss is getting closer and closer.

What it comes down to whether a maker or a collector. You are responsible for your knives.

Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
 
Too many "club" members buy high and sell low. This is due directly to their lack of independent thought.
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This is very usual, happens more often than the makers think and actually brings their after market prices down. Not good at all for the business. Ok, maybe in shork terms cause he´ll get more orders immediately if his stuff is good, but in the long therm his price level tends to drop or to be stationary.

Jeff Velasco
 
bgspecialk said:
Quote:
To borrow a previous quote from the Forum, " until you have the knife in hand your are only voting for a photo."Paul
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I will have to agree. ;) Photos are great for general idea as to what's going on with the knife but no substitute for actual examination. To get a true assessment one needs to handle it, look from different angles, flip to check plunge lines, blade centering etc.

Photos can even depict proportions as being off. How many times have we seen a photo taken from an odd angle that makes the blade appear too long or short for the handle.

Generally photos are taken to make the photos and knives look good.
 
Les Robertson said:
As we have seen in 2007, both the Onion and Boguszewski have started to collapse. Due not to the makers, but to the main primary and after market buyers pulling out and moving to other areas Anyone seen the record prices for the Michale Walker knives lately???
This is another area in which collectors need good intelligence. Know the players and you will know the short term trends.

Too many "club" members buy high and sell low. This is due directly to their lack of independent thought.

As a collector you have to do your homework and develop your criteria as to what to buy and what not to buy. When to buy/sell/hold.

The time it takes to reach the maximum level and the time it takes to reach selling a knife for a loss is getting closer and closer.

What it comes down to whether a maker or a collector. You are responsible for your knives.
Click to expand...

Just to be clear......the PRIMARY AND SECONDARY establisher of the rise and fall of these prices is ONE PERSON.

Grant Wells drove the prices of the Onions and Bogis through the stratosphere because he was willing to pay just about any asking price to get them...he doesn't actively collect them anymore, so the price has fallen, and stabilized to a very fair level. To be completely fair to the makers, their prices have not gotten stupid from what they were before the brouhaha...kudos to BOTH Ken and Phil!!!:thumbup:

Everyone....at the highest level of collecting(that collects THIS type of knife) wants Lake, Steinau, Walker and Loerchner right now...and would kill their mother to get knives from these makers...at the highest is, you guessed it, Walker...and that is because Grant has a serious jones that he has not been able to scratch. The Walker at the AKI sold for the HIGHEST price that Michael has EVER gotten for one of his knives.

Lack of independant thought is RIGHT ON, Les!! Rather than find the best NEW thing....the money boys roll serious cash on established makers, and drive the prices higher. I watched Grant try to work on Tim Galyean, and have to give Tim huge, huge props for not letting his market get cornered by the biggest current shark in the tank.

The only ones who really lose are those that pay with "scared money" in the hopes of making a profit....if you do that, you are better off taking your chances in Vegas. The big money boys shake off losses of thousands of dollars like it is meaningless...and to them....it mostly is. Grant is NOT a bad guy...but he isn't real good for you if you are trying to get a knife from the same maker he wants....He will get it, 90% of the time, every time. Kevin, Roger, Peter, Stephen....be glad that he has not shown any interest in forged blades..I am!!!!..because he will drive the friggin price through the stratosphere in a heartbeat.

You would NOT know this information unless you go to some of the shows that I do, or KNEW someone that goes to the shows that I do....and just like in "The Color of Money"...the biggest action happens before and after the shows.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
bgspecialk said:
I have to take a position somewhere between these two thoughts.

I own a knife that took "best of" in its class at Little Rock and for some reason the knife is yet to photograph well. The positive remarks that were expressed here about this knife were primarily from the collectors that had the opportunity to examine the knife first hand.

I've also had the opportunity to closely examine some of the knives that have been shown in this forum and have been enthusiastically endorsed based on the photo's that were posted. In several cases I did not feel that the photo's posted were truly representative of the actual fit , finish, and balance of the knife.

I have purchased knives based on a photo but only from dealers with a clearly worded return policy and no restocking fees.

To borrow a previous quote from the Forum, " until you have the knife in hand your are only voting for a photo."

Paul
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I wouldn't dispute any of that. As I said, a photo can't possibly tell you everything - a point which I would have thought to fall beyond meaningful dispute. A photo can make a knife look better than it is. The reverse is just as possible. A photo can't tell you how a knife feels in the hand, or how it cuts. All true.

But to make this the basis for the assertion that "no meaningful feedback can be given" based on a photograph is to abandon both logic and experience quite completely, IMHO.

Roger
 
.. I never got a good response about post #62. Anyone care to speak about it?...

I do like the name "the love club" has a funny ring to it. Maybe it could be considered for that 'forged knife collector' club Kevin talked about. I think it would give people a chuckle.

agree with some points made by RL, speaking his mind.. i've had many knives come through the mail, all (or most) of them have a feel and look that isn't Translated well by photograph. <really a side issue to this discussion.>
David
 
Hi David,

With regards to post #62...yes they do.

I base this on numerous conversations....many after judging at a show.

The makers wanted to know, in the case of a show...why they didn't win.

Others just want to know what they can do better.

Almost without exception after I point out the area(s) in question, the makers response is (to paraphrase), "yea I know I've been working on doing that better".

Doesn't mean they were not doing the very best. Lack of experience and/or equipment are generally the culprits.

Les Robertson
2008 Blade Show Judge...I'll be looking...close. :D
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
 
Snody

That is not your girl, you pervert. The photo is an unauthorized picture of my wife, and unless you fork over $25 per thread viewer I'll slap a lawsuit on you that will rock the foundations of BF.

Les

I know all about Love Clubs because I'm one of the legion belonging to the Les Robertson Love Club. Though I'm nothing more than your lowly automaton, I was rather flabbergasted by your promulgation that every maker knows his mistakes and the yellow brick road to perfection. That is like saying every American Idol contestant given some time and practice can find his way to actually become the Idol. In just a short time, through streaming tears of gut-busting, hysterical laughter, we'll once again be reminded unequivocally why that ain't so.

It's true that most can master the techno-physical part (metallurgy, fit & finish, etc) with dedicated, passionate study and practice, but to put it all together into a package that is real art--and I'm not talking adornments--is a summit that few will reach.

The true genius will benefit little from criticism. Can you imagine Rembrandt benefitting from the advice given by a mixed audience of forumites. Even the top critics of his day were incompetent to critique his art, which his why he died broke and broken. The genius is a genetic anomaly. The best advice for him is the voice of the old Jedi urging Luke Skywalker to listen to the Force within. The challenge for the genius is keeping the fire aflame and deciphering the cryptic tumult emanating from his genes. If he perseveres eventually breathtaking, innovative art will arrive independent of help from all the King's horses and . . . and BF forumites.

How many geniuses do you know? By definition they are one in ten thousand or less. The non-genius needs help. Though he will never be the transcendent master he can be a solid journeyman that can make a nice living, but he will have to work hard and take advice from other makers, knife entrepreneurs, knife collectors, and tax consultants, etc.

I don't get the Love Club thing. Of course there are herds running in the wrong direction. So what. Bad advice is bad advice whether by herds or individuals. Aren't some herds (and individuals) running toward Nirvana and offer sound advice? Do we shun all advice good because much of it is bilge? Do we give up friendships because many people are unfriendly? What skookum maker listens to one person or one herd? What maker is so weak that he is unable to winnow away feces from jewels? If he can't, he is doomed, just as the scriptures say.

Every maker needs his mettle tested in one way or another to keep him growing. Some criticisms promote growth; some promote clinched fists, but even the latter may prove useful if it causes self-examination. A good example is found in SAR's last thread where he deflects Steven's criticisms not by defensive tough talk but with humorous rejoinder. He displayed his mettle, and I was wonderfully entertained, which is why I stay tunned.

Ken
 
Nobody wants to admit it, it doesn't sound very masculine, a knife cheerleader. That's why i get so tired of the other forum, the more artsy-fartsy stuff always takes center stage. And grown men, drooling over knives like they had pom poms and skirts, or like drug addicts waiting for their next fix.
David
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Ummm ..... ring a bell 2knife? ..... Seriously, whats your agenda?

Stephen
 
I agree that MUCH of the styling aspect of a knife can be discerned from a photograph. Some of the Fit and Finish can also be determined. This pendulum can swing in two directions...

Of course I have shot knives that simply made ME shrug and attempt to figure out how to show off their best aspects. But, the maker or owner was impressed enough to be willing to pay a professional to help further their exposure. I give them credit.

The best photograph can hide discrepancies, yes. But I will submit that the best photograph STILL can't capture that incredible F&F and feel of the good knives. And.... that number will outweigh the knives who are lesser.

All-in-all Custom Knives had a banner year in 2007, and the internet (photos) and magazines have been key players. Good photography will never replace a handshake or a hand grip, but it's all we got.

Back to the topic at hand.

Coop
 
It is not necessary to trust everything,that people say,but it is also not necessary to consider also that they say without reason. ;)

Doug
 
SharpByCoop said:
I agree that MUCH of the styling aspect of a knife can be discerned from a photograph. Some of the Fit and Finish can also be determined. This pendulum can swing in two directions...

Of course I have shot knives that simply made ME shrug and attempt to figure out how to show off their best aspects. But, the maker or owner was impressed enough to be willing to pay a professional to help further their exposure. I give them credit.

The best photograph can hide discrepancies, yes. But I will submit that the best photograph STILL can't capture that incredible F&F and feel of the good knives. And.... that number will outweigh the knives who are lesser.

All-in-all Custom Knives had a banner year in 2007, and the internet (photos) and magazines have been key players. Good photography will never replace a handshake or a hand grip, but it's all we got.

Back to the topic at hand.

Coop
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Well said Coop. :thumbup:
 
HI Ken,

I know all about Love Clubs because I'm one of the legion belonging to the Les Robertson Love Club. Though I'm nothing more than your lowly automaton, I was rather flabbergasted by your promulgation that every maker knows his mistakes and the yellow brick road to perfection. That is like saying every American Idol contestant given some time and practice can find his way to actually become the Idol. In just a short time, through streaming tears of gut-busting, hysterical laughter, we'll once again be reminded unequivocally why that ain't so.
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Stop it. LOL

I did say that every maker knows their mistakes. I did not say that they know how to fix every mistake.

Most will only achieve a certain amount of skill with regards to building a knife.

Lots of "mediocre" everything out there.

What is interesting about the Idols is that many of the non-winners are doing as well if not better than the winners. Perhaps they did get more practice, took some lessons, hired a manager with a MARKETING PLAN, etc.

The "Love" Club is pretty much a virtual fraternity. On occasion they can turn vicious on an "outsider".

Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
 
2knife said:
The preface to Stephen F's mystery quote, which taken from another website, and in part, does not relay the entire thought. Thanks for creeping me out Stephen F.

One of the reasons i posted the initial question, wanting answers about this stuff. And, it is good to see everyone is offering so many honest responses. David
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You really don't deserve spit, David...you're a tumorous, parasitic growth on this community....I've had it with you.....you offer nothing...and take...take...take.

I'm putting you on ignore......mostly because you always seem so "high minded" in your judgement of us "silly art-knife collectors".

STeven Garsson
 
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