Knife "batoning" for camp/survival fire making

[Thomas Linton]

Wilderness fatalities. Roughly:

25% heart attacks
25% drowning
25% falls

 

[mountainmist]

Bingo! An axe will work circles around a knife in wood processing tasks... but I guess some need to feel "cool" cutting sticks and shrubble with their 10" blades hahahaha

A little opinionated don't you think?

 

[Skrapmetal]

Bingo! An axe will work circles around a knife in wood processing tasks... but I guess some need to feel "cool" cutting sticks and shrubble with their 10" blades hahahaha

My SYKCO 1311 chops nearly as well as my SFA and better than my Lee Reeves Belt Axe (which I no longer have). It limbs just as well. And it can do things an axe can't do worth a crap.

Sure, I could carry a full size axe and outchop it, but I don't need to. So I don't.

Has nothing to do with cool. Or having a judgemental attitude and a false sense of superiority on an internet forum.

HARHARHARHAR.

 

[Balboa256]

Or an accident, a wrong turn, misjudging time, unexpected weather, equipment failure........

All those things would be "numerous mistakes"......

Think about how many mistakes lead to an accident or a wrong turn etc...

Wrong turn- Not paying proper attention, not having a compass, wandering too far in unfamiliar territory.

Misjudging time- Wandering too far in unfamiliar territory, not having a watch, not paying attention to the sun or moon, IGNORING WIFES PHONE CALLS.

Unexpected weather- The weathermen are never correct. Expect the worst.

Equipment failure- Using worn or torn equipment. Not inspecting every buckle, snap, zipper and seam before hike. Using cheaply made equipment. Not having anything to do quick repairs (i.e. duct tape, sailing needle, fishing line or waxed thread). Paying $40 a month for internet and not updating equipment. Ok, the last one was a joke, but could be true. LOL

Accident- In any accident a series of mistakes are made. They may be small unnoticable mistakes but none the less they are mistakes.

 

[jdk1]

All those things would be "numerous mistakes"......

Think about how many mistakes lead to an accident or a wrong turn etc...

Wrong turn- Not paying proper attention, not having a compass, wandering too far in unfamiliar territory.

Misjudging time- Wandering too far in unfamiliar territory, not having a watch, not paying attention to the sun or moon, IGNORING WIFES PHONE CALLS.

Unexpected weather- The weathermen are never correct. Expect the worst.

Equipment failure- Using worn or torn equipment. Not inspecting every buckle, snap, zipper and seam before hike. Using cheaply made equipment. Not having anything to do quick repairs (i.e. duct tape, sailing needle, fishing line or waxed thread). Paying $40 a month for internet and not updating equipment. Ok, the last one was a joke, but could be true. LOL

Accident- In any accident a series of mistakes are made. They may be small unnoticable mistakes but none the less they are mistakes.

Some involve mistakes and could possibly be avoided, but it's a bit unrealistic to believe these things only happen to the unprepared, unskilled masses. In the real world things like this happen all the time. Slipping on a rock, dropping your compass, a gust of wind ripping your map from your hand. The list of possible things which are hard/impossible to prepare for is endless. I fell and broke my leg 15 minutes from my vehicle, but because it was up a draw, I couldn't go back. Had it been a different bone (instead of fibula) I'd have needed rescue. My radio and cell phone didn't work in the canyon, so it would've been a long wait. It took me well over 2 hours of walking to get out. Luckily I always took a cane with me when walking. $hit happens and to believe it can't happen to you is a dangerous mindset. Be safe.

 

[b yond]

batoning, like most other things, has a place. Getting at some dry wood, in a time of need, is the place for this practice. I have to say though, in some 60+ years afield, I have yet seen the need to do so myself.
Oh, I mess around, chopping and abusing wood, not out of need, but because it's fun.

'Round here it usually rains most of the year, and it's always humid in the subtropical rainforests in which I play. If I want to make a fire with "found" materials, I need a way to get at the dry wood in the center of otherwise wet dead wood. This is where a trustworthy fixed blade and some careful and reasonable batoning come into play for me.

I'm not talking about splitting firewood, just cracking open a piece of wood or two so I can shave some kindling out from the center.

I've never damaged a blade batoning, but I have broken some chopping.

 

[Balboa256]

Some involve mistakes and could possibly be avoided, but it's a bit unrealistic to believe these things only happen to the unprepared, unskilled masses. In the real world things like this happen all the time. Slipping on a rock, dropping your compass, a gust of wind ripping your map from your hand. The list of possible things which are hard/impossible to prepare for is endless. I fell and broke my leg 15 minutes from my vehicle, but because it was up a draw, I couldn't go back. Had it been a different bone (instead of fibula) I'd have needed rescue. My radio and cell phone didn't work in the canyon, so it would've been a long wait. It took me well over 2 hours of walking to get out. Luckily I always took a cane with me when walking. $hit happens and to believe it can't happen to you is a dangerous mindset. Be safe.

Glad you ended up ok, sorry to hear about the broken bone. I dont believe I or anybody for that matter can avoid all mistakes. I am always prepared brother. You be safe to dude.

 

[Shotgun]

'Round here it usually rains most of the year, and it's always humid in the subtropical rainforests in which I play. If I want to make a fire with "found" materials, I need a way to get at the dry wood in the center of otherwise wet dead wood. This is where a trustworthy fixed blade and some careful and reasonable batoning come into play for me.

I'm not talking about splitting firewood, just cracking open a piece of wood or two so I can shave some kindling out from the center.

I've never damaged a blade batoning, but I have broken some chopping.

Same here. Get a fire going in 15-20 mins with splitting or baby a fire for a few hours with nothing but wet materials. I'll take the lazy way.

 

[NeedItCheaper]

So...what are your thoughts? Do you baton with a knife for camp fires? Why, or why not? What are your thoughts on this topic?

I'm not talking about processing small pieces of wood for kindling; I'm talking about splitting logs.

Ever since I started backpacking for real, I have come to realize that in the woods, you virtually never need to baton anything more than 2-3 inches. It's just wasted calories, and the logs will burn anyways. Once the fire gets going, there is no reason for the batoning at all, and here's why.........

First, this is how I make a fire:
I get a bunch of shavings, twigs, finger thick sticks. Light 2-3 long shavings and use them like a candlde. Then light a lot of twigs, then feed the finger sticks in. From there I need no batoning. This has been true everywhere I have camped.

My main point:
The wood is pre-cut for you. Other than the shavings, all the sizes you need are just laying around for you to pick up. To try any harder than that is just a waste.

 

[Jastab]

I agree about the axe, but who carries an axe out into the woods unless you know ahead of time that you'll need it or you are carrying everything on a horse or ATV? You might carry the big knife however.

The title of the thread is knife batoning for CAMPING.... the name of the tread implies your going camping, so you pack up your shit including an axe. So if I'm going camping, I will carry an axe into the woods KNOWING I will use it.... read the title next time.

 

[stabman]

The title of the thread is knife batoning for CAMPING.... the name of the tread implies your going camping, so you pack up your shit including an axe.

Depends on your definition of camping.
I usually don't even bring a tent.
Often I don't bother with a sleeping bag.
Or an axe.
I bring a few knives, some food, and whatever else will fit in a regular size backpack.

Some people basically move into the woods for a bit, with a wood-stove, tent, chairs, folding table, full cook set, etc.
THEY should totally bring an axe.
And a saw.

 

[smokinbasser]

I use a baton with my Machax to spit kindling for my fireplace, I have an ax for knotty wood logs, knowing my tendency for missing the mark prodded me to get an unbreakable handled ax, the fiber-core Chopper brand.

 

[jdk1]

I did some batonning yesterday. I used a CS Gurkha khuk and had an oak log about as big as my forearm (not very large). Batonned with grain from the side to get it started, as the wood was very well seasoned and rock hard. I finished by using the blade like a wedge in the crack I'd made, and I could have made a wooden wedge as well, but didn't want to take that much time. Once split, I had a nice area to get shavings by dragging the inside of the log along the blade. From start to finish I had fire using a firesteel in a few minutes. It was dry and I could have easily grabbed grass and done it faster, but had everything been wet, I see what I did as a reasonable thing which was quick, easy, and safe. I may never NEED to do it, but It's good to know I can. Had I had just a smaller knife, I wouldn't have pounded it into that rock hard log, but could likely shave workable pieces from the side using the same techniques. I think it's a valid, useful technique to know. Take care.

 

[olybears57]

Wilderness fatalities. Roughly:

25% heart attacks
25% drowning
25% falls

I don't believe those stats... The number one killer in the wilderness by far and away has got to be exposure... right?

 

[Thomas Linton]

I don't believe those stats... The number one killer in the wilderness by far and away has got to be exposure... right?

Oh yes. All those former sperts telling you that.

When I read that stuff in books or government websites, I ask them for the basis of their statements. The most I get is "everybody knows . . . ."

I have no personal knowledge. I can only rely on every statistical study that I can find. For example: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1304948/

But feel free to present other statistics. Always more to learn.

By the way, alcohol use is a common contributing factor.

 

[Myal]

Oh yes. All those former sperts telling you that.

When I read that stuff in books or government websites, I ask them for the basis of their statements. The most I get is "everybody knows . . . ."

I have no personal knowledge. I can only rely on every statistical study that I can find. For example: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1304948/

But feel free to present other statistics. Always more to learn.

By the way, alcohol use is a common contributing factor.

Id have thought that it would more be the lack of alcohol ..
as in when one lets go of ones alcohol
Most alcohol related accidents I have seen happen usualy involve a " here hold my beer and watch this " ...
that they let go their alcohol has been a definite factor in their having an accident , had they continued sucking on their cans , theyd not have got hurt .
My thoughts on this subject anyway .

 

[olybears57]

Well, from my persons experience in search and rescue, the vast majority of deaths we come across are from exposure. I could see in the front country falls and drownings would be more common... But if we are talking real backcountry wilderness, exposure is generally what gets them.

 

[Thomas Linton]

Anecdotes are just that. They may be valuable lessons, but they are not statistics.

So these are just anecdotes, some from fairly remote places:

A college student died Monday after jumping from rocks into a pool of water in the Angeles National Forest during a recreational outing with about a dozen other students, authorities said.
The group of 13 college students was hiking near Hermit Flats when some of them decided to jump off the rocks.
After five people had already jumped, the victim took his turn.
"After the victim jumped, he appeared on the surface but appeared to be unconscious," according to the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department.
Some in the group pulled him from the water and tried to perform CPR while others tried calling for help on their cellphones.
The student was airlifted to a hospital where he was pronounced dead.
A Los Angeles County coroner's official said the man's identity could not be released Tuesday morning because his next of kin had yet to be notified.

In 2010, two European hikers were trying to reach the bus [the infamous bus] when they attempted to cross the Teklanika River; one, Claire Jane Ackermann, was pulled under and drowned. It was the same river that McCandless found too turbulent to cross, keeping him from returning to civilization.

The group turned back, and soon spread out along the trail, leaving some boys on their own. They began taking dangerous shortcuts between switchbacks. After stepping off the trail, Luis lost his footing and slid out of control over an edge. He plunged 300 feet to his death.

While vacationing with her family in Hardy, Carla Jo Davenport, 41, of Lonoke, Ark. drowned July 25 when she was thrown from her raft and trapped between rocks near Rio Vista.

And this one lived:

Killip began scrambling up a steep scree slope, determined just to get the hell out. Going in the wrong direction in a rainstorm, then, with fury casting caution to the wind, Killip lost his footing and went tumbling down the long grade. As he was being battered on the sharp rocks, his map and rope were snatched away. His knees and ankles were badly battered and torn. At last, he managed to grab a branch, wrenching his shoulder out of joint, but finally bringing himself to a stop. From there, he slid carefully down to a small pond, where he removed his boots and soaked his ankles. His injuries were worse than he thought: Severely pulled muscles in his shoulder, two seriously injured knees, and two badly sprained ankles. Despite wearing boots, several of his toenails had been ripped off. He had no choice but to stay the night.

As did this one:

Lisa Tabb went into the Utah wilderness looking for an adventure and a chance to test her limits. She left with a broken hip, a broken leg, three broken ribs and a dislocated shoulder. Midway down, as the guides tried to talk Tabb down, she shouted that she was slipping. She fell from the rock and dropped about 25 feet. The guides quickly provided medical help and called for a medical evacuation by helicopter.

Not sure how to classify this except death by stupidity:

The Boulder Outdoor Survival School, or BOSS for short, says they didn't give Dave Buschow water because they wanted to help him pass their rigorous course, which teaches people how to survive in extreme wilderness. Their rules at the time stated you could only drink what you find along the way.

Dave Bushchow's mother says that's "macho stupidity." She says when he began showing signs of severe dehydration they should have given him water.

Dave Buschow dropped dead July 17th of last year. According to witnesses, he was cramping and delusional. He died an ugly death in a beautiful place, but it's not without consequence.

An autopsy for a hunter whose body was found Thursday has determined his death was from natural causes.

The man, James J. McCarthy, a 49-year-old resident of Glenwood Springs, was hunting with his father-in-law in the area of Mosquito Lake when he got lost on Tuesday.

His body was spotted Thursday morning by an Army National Guard helicopter crew and civilians.

An autopsy ... reveled the weather did not cause his death, but rather heart disease did.

DETROIT -- For Earl and Matt Zellen, the outdoors was about spending time together with family.
The father and son from metro Detroit took off July 21 for a weeklong fishing trip to the northern Canadian wilderness, a couple of hundred miles from the Arctic Circle. It was the same spot they had been the year before with Matt's two younger brothers to celebrate Earl's 70th birthday. This year's trip — with just the two of them — ended in tragedy.

The pair of experienced outdoorsmen went missing from Dubawnt Lake, Nunavut, on July 29 when they failed to show up at the designated time to catch their plane back home.

All that Matt Zellen, 40, of Bloomfield Hills, Mich., the entrepreneur behind the Detroit Outfitters store in Warren, and Earl Zellen of Brighton, a longtime Ford executive turned housing volunteer, left behind was an empty boat washed up on the shore.

"The day they went missing was 72 degree and sunny and weather was not factor," said Mike Zellen, son of Earl and brother of Matt."

A San Rafael man whose body was found Wednesday on Mt. Langley in the Inyo National Forest died in a fall, an Inyo County coroner's deputy said Tuesday. Thomas Heng, 31, died of "multiple traumatic fractures and hemorrhages due to a mountain hiking accident," Inyo County deputy coroner's investigator Jeff Mullenhour said.

Five hikers were killed by a rock slide on a trail in south-central Colorado on Monday, and another was pulled out with injuries and flown to a hospital, authorities said.

EMS and park rangers are investigating after officials said a 70-year-old man was found dead at Pilot Mountain Tuesday morning.
Lloyd Ewing Ramsey, of 4948 Baux Mt. Road in Winston-Salem, died after falling more than 50 feet near Three Bears Gully Trail, said Surry County EMS Director John Shelton.
Authorities said he had a medical condition, but the official cause of his fall remains uncertain. The investigation is ongoing.

Thomas Plotkin and his group treaded slowly in the light drizzle toward the village of Lilam — their destination following a grueling daylong hike across the northeast Indian landscape.
The 20-year-old Minnetonka native slipped on one of the wet cobblestones along the 6-foot-wide path, falling to the ground as the weight of his pack pulled him over the edge of a 300-foot drop-off and into the rain-swollen Gori Ganga River below. Despite two weeks of searching, Plotkin’s body was never found.

A student at the University of Maine died Saturday evening after falling 60 feet from a trail in Acadia National Park, The Bangor Daily News reported.

Mr. Sheppard said it may not be possible to determine what happened, but the trail crosses Whiskey Creek upstream from where the remains were found, and it is possible Mr. Sill was swept away while trying to wade the stream. “At the time it was a raging creek,” said Whitney Numan, of Smithers Search and Rescue, the group that led the search effort in July. He said said the canyon wasn’t thoroughly searched last July because it wouldn’t have been safe to go into it with the water so high. “There’s a fairly good-sized creek that narrows down into basically vertical canyon walls and multiple waterfalls. It’s extremely dangerous to put anyone in that area.”

And since someone was interested:

Wilderness mortalities: a 13-year experience. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11223764

One hundred fatalities occurred during the 13-year study period. There were 59 unintentional traumas, 18 suicides, 9 homicides, 12 medically related deaths, and 2 deaths of unknown causes. Toxicology tests performed on body fluids yielded positive findings for alcohol in a total of 50 (50%) cases and positive findings for drugs of abuse in 12 (12%) cases. It was estimated that alcohol was "a very probable" or "a probable" causative factor in 23 (40%) of the 59 unintentional trauma deaths, and in 1 (8.3%) of the 12 medically related deaths. Fifty-five (55%) deaths were witnessed events, with 45 (80%) of these victims reported as dying immediately or before arrival of search and rescue personnel. Ten (10%) victims received resuscitation in the field, and according to a review of hospital charts and autopsy reports, only 2 victims had a potentially survivable injury or illness.
CONCLUSION:
Many wilderness mortalities are related to incidents involving alcohol. Once the accident or injury has occurred, the majority of deaths are immediate, or at least before the arrival of medical personnel. Higher levels of medical care would not have improved the outcomes of those who did survive long enough to receive medical care. Therefore, primary efforts to reduce mortalities in the wilderness should be directed toward prevention, especially diminishing alcohol use in wilderness areas.

 

[olybears57]

A definition of "wilderness" would be helpful with that breakdown. Does it mean trees were present? Because once again... I can see where hicks would be dying by the truckload from a mixture of alcohol, long drops, and water... But generally speaking, said drunk hicks don't make it far up a trail into the backcountry.. more like side of a forest service road, in a big backyard... etc. Which some may not really consider wilderness.

 

[Thomas Linton]

There are cliffs and bodies of water in the "backcountry." Perhaps fewer middle-aged types to fall over from heart disease. But the above anecdotes include some pretty outback country.

Epidemiology of wilderness search and rescue in New Hampshire, 1999-2001

CONCLUSIONS:
The most prevalent demographic group requiring search-and-rescue efforts in New Hampshire was men aged 30 to 40 years who were hiking and who resided within a 4-hour drive of the area where they encountered difficulty. To decrease the number of people involved in most search and rescue, efforts should be focused on preventing wilderness users from getting lost and preventing lower extremity musculoskeletal injuries. Wilderness deaths may be prevented by focusing attention on cardiac health in wilderness users older than 50 years and on water safety.