Knife Clones - What is your beef (if any)?

[knifezoid]

So I'm reading this thread bout the Sanrenmu 710 and seeing how
heated it became due to it resembling the Sebenza so much. This
bothers a lot of people and for others they just like getting a cheap
knife. We saw this controversy over SOG and their blatant similarities
to some Spyderco models. Me being mainly in the balisong world
I saw this controversy with the M-Tech Twist (a Darrel Ralph) design.
I'm also about to review a Tach-Bali which is a clone of the Microtech
Tachyon.

I mention the balisongs because the difference with these knives is
that the companies which make them have explicit permission and/or
own the rights to the design. So the cloning is in fact legal and
legitimate.

I guess my questions is what about knife cloning bothers you the most
(if it bothers you at all)? Is it the fact that the knife company is unoriginal?
Or is it more so that they are trying to circumvent copyright/licensing
issues? Or is it something else?

Me personally, I am OK with a cheaper clone of a knife since some
people might want the real thing, but simply can't afford it. But I do
have more respect and am at more ease if the knife is cloned with
the permission of the designer/company.

What's your take on it?

 

[Vicarious Reality]

Making a more affordable, licensed copy of a popular top shelf knife seems like a smart busyness tactic.
Making an unlicensed copyright breaching imitation of the same is just illegal.

 

[ForestRoamer]

Imitation is the greatest form of flattery. Right? I personally don't mind cheap clones of knives because you get what you pay for in knives, when you pay a fraction of the cost of a sebenza for a cheap knock off you're not getting any of the things that make a sebenza such a great knife.

 

[kitkat52]

hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

 

[quick kill]

There only so many ways you can make a FUNCTIONAL knife. Eventually to knives are going to look the same. I don't have a problem with it unless the original maker tells the "copycat maker" to stop and he doesn't. And I also think its in bad taste to make a direct copy of say a sebenza with all the same materials and charging the same or more. But other then that if it's a lower quality knife then who cares it's not detracting from the original makers fame or profit and it allows people that make minimum wage to join in on the fun. But that's only my opinion I'm shore others would and will disagree. And that's the beauty of America.

 

[freedoom]

Oh boy, big can of worms here.

1. Companies put a lot of money into Research and Development and design. Companies that make knockoffs don't have any RnD , hey are borrowing someone else's designs. That is stealing.

2. Knockoffs raise the price of the original product. Sales of knockoffs cut into the sales of the official product so they have to raise the price of the original product to recoup costs.

3. There are also labor issues with a lot of knockoffs. A lot of knockoffs are made in china or 3rd world countries without proper labor laws. They often underpay and mistreat workers so you have an obligation to not buy their products because they don't treat their labor pool properly.

 

[RevDevil]

Oh boy, big can of worms here.

1. Companies put a lot of money into Research and Development and design. Companies that make knockoffs don't have any RnD , hey are borrowing someone else's designs. That is stealing.

2. Knockoffs raise the price of the original product. Sales of knockoffs cut into the sales of the official product so they have to raise the price of the original product to recoup costs.

3. There are also labor issues with a lot of knockoffs. A lot of knockoffs are made in china or 3rd world countries without proper labor laws. They often underpay and mistreat workers so you have an obligation to not buy their products because they don't treat their labor pool properly.

Nailed it! That is my feeling on the matter as well. :thumbup:

 

[effer]

I once tried to explain knife "value" to someone. I have saved a piece. There is also a bit about design and added thoughts about Sanrenmu 710 (for example).

What goes into knife value:

materials
built quality
design
warranty/support
rarity (think prestige, discontinued, custom etc)

... maybe something else...

In case of current production piece, just focus on the first three: materials, quality, design and leave support out just to make things easier.
Different knives might have very different $$ allocation in those categories. Even with materials, where you would think the price is set, there can be a huge difference in this category. The actual cost of material is usually not high at all. For example take Buck vantage Pro with S30V and G10. It costs around $50 all together (built and distributed). At the same time another manufacturer might price the same knife with just "upgraded" blade steel $50-70 more than their basic model, even though their additional cost for materials and manufacturing is probably no more than $15. Even more interesting is that there can be a big variance with the same manufacturer in what the "upgrade" costs from model to model, even though the production cost is the same.
Now build quality... Have no idea how to associate the $$ amount with level of quality. Don't even know how to measure it. Still, in many cases that's what people like to pay a lot for (even if they can't detect much difference). The higher cost can be justified (higher tolerances, cost of equipment to reach this level, cost of better quality control etc), while in other cases quality does not match the asking price at all.
Now the design factor is very interesting too. There is an artistic royalty and also RnD, brand/trademark/model/design recognition. Artist might decide that outline/shape/etc that he came up with should cost lots of money alone. Sometime it is zip (no cost at all). Research and Development (Rnd) might cost a lot of money, or might not cost much at all (no RnD at all). Brand/trademark/model design earns money down the road due to public acceptance and recognition translated into higher number of pieces sold. Amount of $$ associated just with design can be very high. Same manufacturer can charge 30-50% more for a the same materials and same production quality as their other products, just because they think (or know) that this design will be more desirable.
......

That being said, if you look at Sanrenmu 710, that is no doubt has many design aspects borrowed from CRK sebenza, you will see that it earns some money just due to design success and recognition of CRK sebenza, without paying artistic royalty. This is the biggest issue in this case.
How bad this is, everyone will decide for themselves. Before judging others for buying such product as Sanrenmu 710, one should think about other things (like food, cars, electronics etc) that they acquired cheaper without "paying" artistic royalties to the original designer. You will be very surprised how often we do this, in many cases without even realizing the fact or just not paying attention to it.

 

[zyhano]

Oh boy, big can of worms here.

1. Companies put a lot of money into Research and Development and design. Companies that make knockoffs don't have any RnD , hey are borrowing someone else's designs. That is stealing.

2. Knockoffs raise the price of the original product. Sales of knockoffs cut into the sales of the official product so they have to raise the price of the original product to recoup costs.

3. There are also labor issues with a lot of knockoffs. A lot of knockoffs are made in china or 3rd world countries without proper labor laws. They often underpay and mistreat workers so you have an obligation to not buy their products because they don't treat their labor pool properly.

1. No, it is not. How else could we make progress? How would you make a new thing from scratch? People use each others' ideas all the time
2. Welcome to capitalism and free market. Deal with it.
3. Not necessarily so. Do i have an obligation not to buy us knives cause the us is not nice to people in guantanamo admitted even when it's unlawful? No hypocrisy please..

It's just knives. People have good ideas, let's use them

 

[RevDevil]

1. No, it is not. How else could we make progress? How would you make a new thing from scratch? People use each others' ideas all the time
2. Welcome to capitalism and free market. Deal with it.
3. Not necessarily so. Do i have an obligation not to buy us knives cause the us is not nice to people in guantanamo admitted even when it's unlawful? No hypocrisy please..

It's just knives. People have good ideas, let's use them

Can of worms is wide open. Allow me to respectfully disagree:
1- It's called "Ingenuity". Granted, there not much that has not been done already, but it's much better to make something and have that thing earn a reputation for being unique-not a copy. That is a huge aspect lacking in copies/clones/ripoffs/counterfeits.
2- Absolutely so, ask Sal Slesser as an example. He has been in the business 30+ years. Ask Chris Reeve, another cutler with 30+ years experience, the list goes on and on.
3- The US has labor laws, last time I checked no one walked around in a factory beating 5-10 year old workers with sticks for falling asleep after working a 16-24 hour shift. Also, you get paid minimum wage, not much, but it sure beats $.50/week or whatever those poor kids make over there.

The one thing you said I do agree with is that "People have good ideas, let's use them". Kind of hard when in most parts of the known universe if you want to use something that does not belong to you, that is called stealing. If you would like to borrow, you ask... nicely.

 

[effer]

1. Companies put a lot of money into Research and Development and design. Companies that make knockoffs don't have any RnD , hey are borrowing someone else's designs. That is stealing.

Generally, but not always. In case of knives the RnD can cost a lot, but also can cost very little. It can simply go from drawing a design on paper to making a product.

2. Knockoffs raise the price of the original product. Sales of knockoffs cut into the sales of the official product so they have to raise the price of the original product to recoup costs.

Well, sales of knockoffs can cut into the sales of the original product, but it rarely leads to raising the price. It can drive the original manufacturer out of business, but raising the high price of the original even higher to recoup the costs would rarely work, because even less pieces of original will be sold.

3. There are also labor issues with a lot of knockoffs. A lot of knockoffs are made in china or 3rd world countries without proper labor laws. They often underpay and mistreat workers so you have an obligation to not buy their products because they don't treat their labor pool properly.

Not always the case. Knockoffs can also be produced on the factory right next to the one that original manufacturer is using.

 

[zyhano]

Before governments claimed control over your thoughts, ideas were always free to use. It is called stealing because you are raised to believe so. That is the essence.

 

[freedoom]

Not always the case. Knockoffs can also be produced on the factory right next to the one that original manufacturer is using.

That's why i worded my response in such a way as to not include all manufacturers.

3. Not necessarily so. Do i have an obligation not to buy us knives cause the us is not nice to people in guantanamo admitted even when it's unlawful? No hypocrisy please..

how does the way the US military treats its prisoners equate to how a factory treats it's laborers? Don't forget that it was still illegal to treat them like that but lets stay on topic here.

Before governments claimed control over your thoughts, ideas were always free to use. It is called stealing because you are raised to believe so. That is the essence.

So you don't believe in intellectual property, copyrights or patents? When you patent something the government doesn't claim control over it, it protects your rights to make money from your own ideas.

Do you believe you are entitled to copy word for word someone else's novel and publish it under your own name?

 

[zyhano]

My official point: I have no beef with clones.
I think i'll just leave it at that

 

[quick kill]

I don't think knockoff's make a difference,not as bad as people may think anyway the person buying the ten dollar knockoff is buying it because they probably can't afford $400-$500 dollars so they would never buy the original anyway. does anyone pay royalties to the person/family wen they use a drop point,clip point warncliff,?or the person that developed the liner,frame lock? And about RnD just because they spend money to find out what people like or what's "hot" at the time and then take part of one knife say the blade then the handle from another nobody calls it stealing, they call it innovation. If the maker says something and they don't stop then it's a problem but until they (the maker)says something then it's a cheap alternative for people that can't afford to otherwise.

 

[kreole]

The only problem I have with it is not giving credit where credit is due. If it's strongly influenced by another design, say it. If your knife is good on its own--because it's manufactured well or is cheap or whatever--then giving credit to the original designer or manufacturer isn't going to harm your sales. Not giving the source of the design is theft, IMO.

 

[OrdnanceBubbaUSMC]

Quality is the most important thing, not the looks. The type of people who buy sub $20 knives are not the type of people who buy more expensive knives typically anyway.

Everything around is a clone design...you just get picky about just how similar it is. Look at homes, cars, cereal boxes, hammers, shoes, etc.

There is only so far we can go when we try to be absolute about having things completely original in design and only made in our own country. While most people are pushing this they are going on these forums with computers made mostly or completely in China and a copy of a design they probably didn't come up with.

Unless you have some thing in your design that others can not duplicate because it is so innovative and/or difficult to produce you have to expect copy-cats if it seems profitable.

I think in the end its a personal gut-call, no need to try to convert other people's opinions on the matter or even try to bring it up - it's almost a political/religious thing with some people. We are all in the gray area though, we all use clones and cheaply produced products of Asia, shame on us all.

 

[shecky]

Oh boy, big can of worms here.

1. Companies put a lot of money into Research and Development and design. Companies that make knockoffs don't have any RnD , hey are borrowing someone else's designs. That is stealing.

Stealing only happens when the company that's copied actually owns the design. There are very clear procedures to do such a thing. Absent those procedures, and the actual determination that they do own that property, there is no stealing. And even then, it's the owner's burden to police.

2. Knockoffs raise the price of the original product. Sales of knockoffs cut into the sales of the official product so they have to raise the price of the original product to recoup costs.

Knockoffs raise the price of the original product. Except when they don't. Example, the Buck 110, possibly the most copied knife ever. Adjusting for inflation, it's probably cheaper now than it was back in the 70s when I was a kid.

Furthermore, I think you'd have a tough time making a case that Sanrenmu, for example, is cutting in on CRK's business.

Additionally, if they are cutting in on CRK's business, so what? That might light a fire under CRK's butt to get on the ball and improve their lineup. It's called competition, copying or not. That has been the strength of of the Western world (which has a long tradition of copying successful ideas, btw), and the result is the remarkable prosperity we all enjoy today. Competition has this counter intuitive way of making things not only cheaper, but better.

3. There are also labor issues with a lot of knockoffs. A lot of knockoffs are made in china or 3rd world countries without proper labor laws. They often underpay and mistreat workers so you have an obligation to not buy their products because they don't treat their labor pool properly.

This is a speculative argument. They certainly underpay their workers compared to how much we all make. China's cost of living is also significantly less than ours. However, it's entirely speculative to say that any particular company abuses and underpays workers (by their standards), unless you have some real knowledge to back that up.

Furthermore, this charge can be lobbed at any developing nation's manufacturing. Which goes along with being a developing nation. There was a time when the US was a developing nation, and workers didn't enjoy the protections we enjoy today. But that was a growing pain that now affords us all kinds of benefits our predecessors could never dream of. We may never have gotten this far if somehow, the US were to have enforced today's workplace standards on yesterday's workplace. Denying other developing countries their own growing pains slows their own development as well, while denying consumers the potential savings to be had by utilizing their labor.

 

[Tony8179]

That might light a fire under CRK's butt to get on the ball and improve their lineup.

Out of all the blah, blah, blah, that you posted, this is the one thing that I had to read twice and then roll my eyes at. What improvements does the CRK lineup need? I'm really eager to hear this.

By the way, competition isn't stealing someone else's design. Competition is coming up with a design that can be as good or better than the design that you want to compete with.

 

[beau007]

Before governments claimed control over your thoughts, ideas were always free to use. It is called stealing because you are raised to believe so. That is the essence.

What??? How does a discussion about cloning knives degenerate into people being accused of having their thoughts controlled by the government? In the free society of the US, people's physical AND intellectual property is protected by law. THAT is the essence.