Knife Clones - What is your beef (if any)?

I don't think knockoff's make a difference,not as bad as people may think anyway the person buying the ten dollar knockoff is buying it because they probably can't afford $400-$500 dollars so they would never buy the original anyway. does anyone pay royalties to the person/family wen they use a drop point,clip point warncliff,?or the person that developed the liner,frame lock? And about RnD just because they spend money to find out what people like or what's "hot" at the time and then take part of one knife say the blade then the handle from another nobody calls it stealing, they call it innovation. If the maker says something and they don't stop then it's a problem but until they (the maker)says something then it's a cheap alternative for people that can't afford to otherwise.

If someone would make a decent clone of the SnG, but not out of titanium, perhaps using stainless steel for the framelock, and G10 for the scale, and a decent, lower grade steel for the blade, say something like an AUS 4 or 8, and priced it reasonably enough, I'd probably buy one, just for the looks. To me, the Buck Striders don't answer/fulfill the need/desire. Somehow they seem alright, but not adequate.

If you notice in my signature, I'm in the market for a user SnG... I simply like the look...

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Edit: Just looked at a Buck Strider Police Advocate. Looks alright, but it has rivets to hold the handles on. Even much cheaper Cold Steel knives have torx screws. (Ditto for I don't know how many Chinese clones.) Not gonna spring $80 for a used BSPA... not worth it, at least to me.
 
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I'm tending to agree with most of the points made, but some designs I would like in my collection even though they are either rare or expensive so I would never afford them.
I do think it is wrong to blantantly copy some elses design, but I will never afford or find a Loveless or a Randall...... So never have these designs or buy a ODA or a OSS?
Well I have them both, so that's the answer.
Maybe more designers should allow their design to be made by more affordable companys. Ken Onion makes his own and CRKT & Kershaw also makes his designs, I doubt I'll ever buy a handmade but a CRKT Ripple is a possibllity.
 
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Good points from everyone.

In the case of the Twist Darrel Ralph gets royalties from the design and
they have his permission to use the design.

If this is the case does it still bother you (planterz, as well as all forum
members)?

I'm not 100% sure on this, but I believe in this case the permission/royalties came after they had taken DDR's designs for their own, and DDR brought legal action to them. There's also quite a few of DDR's designs that are copied, not just the Twist, but I don't know if any or all of them are included in their agreement.

I'm less certain about the timeline of the Tach bali, although I know that the design belongs to Mike Turber, not Microtech, and the agreement is between MTech and Mike.

Whether or not these 2 examples are "OK" because permission/credit/royalties were granted at some point to produce these copies, there's still many others where no agreement was made, and hardworking knife makers had their designs blatantly stolen by MTech. Terry Guinn, Flavio Ikoma, Larry Davidson/Strider, Spyderco, and of course Benchmade (specifically Jody Samson's designs), to name a few.
 
If somebody painted a picture, in impressionistic style, of a man on a dock by water against a red sky, with his hands to his face and mouth agape, and called it "The Shriek", nobody on the planet would argue that it's not a copy of Edvard Munch's "The Scream".

Believe it or not, there are rules about this. But the rules for paintings are different than what apply to knives. Copyright would apply to a painting, but you might have trouble applying it to a knife. A patent might apply to a knife, but not a painting. In addition, they offer different protections.

Copying somebody else's work and presenting it as your is wrong. It doesn't matter if it's a knife, a painting, a watch, a designer handbag, a microprocessor, test answers from the smart guy sitting next to you in class, etc. It's wrong. If your moral compass can't tell you that, then you're already heading in the wrong direction.

Unfortunately the world isn't quite so black and white when it comes to manufactured products.

Certainly there will technologies that will eventually be copied. Somebody originally came up with the backlock, and now countless companies use it. Countless makers use Michael Walker's linerlock, which Chris Reeve adapted into his integral framelock, which countless makers also now use. Eventually the AXIS lock patent will run out and other companies will start using it.

They're taking someone else's design and profiting from it. Without permission, without giving credit, without royalties. That's wrong. Some people will try to give justification to it, but that statement in itself shows that it's wrong. If it was "right", it wouldn't need justification.

Do you really care about patents? You seem to think if a patent has run out it can be copied. OK so far. However, you also seem to think that if something is copied across the board, it's wrong. What if it never had a patent? We're all supposed to threat it as if it did? And perpetually, even more than the term of a real patent? This makes no sense.

Perhaps you're just offended that copiers are not genuflecting to to the original designers when they otherwise ethically make their copies? I dunno... all I can say is... tough titty. *

A design belongs to the designer. Copying a design is stealing from the designer. If you've ever had an original thought of your own, you might someday balk at somebody stealing it for their own use.

No. Once again, a design does not belong to a designer, unless the designer takes very clear steps to get legal ownership. No doubt many people in history have had their feelings hurt by having their ideas copied. If one thing history shows it's that any idea that's worth copying will be copied. End of story. If creative people cannot deal with this reality, they can take their toys and go home. Having good ideas does not make one entitled to be successful, respected, or even employed. Nobody ever said running a knife making business was easy.

FWIW, there's a very interesting Ted talk by a woman named Johanna Blakely on the topic of intellectual property, dealing specifically with the fashion industry, but applies to many other fields, including to a large degree, the knife market.
 
When did this become a thread about loopholes? :rolleyes:

This started as a legitimate thread that posed the question why people may or may not have an issue with clones. It rapidly turned into a thread about defending those who steal. You can all fancy dance around all the words and google searches you want. Stealing is stealing. Let's get real with each other here. I'm not in my lawyer suit today so when I see a blatant ripoff I'm going to call a spade a spade. I'm not going to argue that the spade is a malformed club.
 
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tony how does taurus legally make identical stuff as smith and wesson as well as berreta?.never could figure.

joey
 
tony how does taurus legally make identical stuff as smith and wesson as well as berreta?.never could figure.

joey

I have no idea. I'm not really a gun guy. Probably the same way that San Ren Mu is legally making knives with an Axis lock.
 
When was it not about loopholes? Everybody likes clone products when it suits them. It's no surprise, however, that knife nuts (like enthusiasts of any stripe) will go to bat for their favorite brands. Even then, how many folks around here get all bent out of shape when someone makes a new Barlow without lighting a candle to the original Mr. Barlow and sending a residual check to his heirs?
 
tony how does taurus legally make identical stuff as smith and wesson as well as berreta?.never could figure.

joey

Okay. Three minutes on good old Google and this came up.

In their early years of pistol production, Taurus firearms was fortunate to be a “sister company” of legendary and reputable Smith & Wesson, and then a later buyout of a Beretta plant in Sao Paulo, Brazil. With ties to and help from such outstanding firearms producers, Taurus was able to perfect its art of pistol production.
 
There are many smart people on this thread.The thoughts you all are sharing is very thought provoking.I have much to think through about the issue.
 
"Clone" isn't really an accurate term. I think that cast pot metal, mystery steel blades, and every possible manufacturing shortcut being taken, while resulting in a knife that may externally resemble another knife to some degree, doesn't really result in a knife being close enough to the real thing to be truly considered a clone.

A more accurate term is "counterfeit knife".

Also, it's not unknown for counterfeit knives to be passed off as the real versions.

It makes me a bit upset, really. It's stolen intellectual property, damages the manufacturer's reputation, and damages the market for the actual goods.
 
Don't get too indignant. If you think you haven't benefited from copied ideas, it's most likely because you haven't looked closely enough.

Let's not back track. You said "cloned products" not "copied ideas". The Television is a "copied idea". I go out and I buy a Sony. I don't go out and buy a Seny because it's cheaper but looks the same as the Sony.
 
A more accurate term is "counterfeit knife".

A counterfeit isn't really the same as a clone, which seems more a colloquial term for "copy". A counterfeit is a misrepresented item, not necessarily a copied item. This may sound like splitting hairs, but the difference is very clear.
 
Let's not back track. You said "cloned products" not "copied ideas". The Television is a "copied idea". I go out and I buy a Sony. I don't go out and buy a Seny because it's cheaper but looks the same as the Sony.

I know a genuine Panaphonics when I see it. And look, there's Magnetbox and Sorny.
 
I know a genuine Panaphonics when I see it. And look, there's Magnetbox and Sorny.

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Speak for yourself guy, because you don't speak for me.

He has a point. You just think about it in a bit too narrow way.

People go to grocery store and buy their house brand, because it is identical in taste to the other brand, but is cheaper. We care less who came up with the idea of potato chips with sour cream and onion and such...
People click away on their windows computers, or apple pcs and don't care who borrowed particular ideas from whom. We just like that it is comfortable.
People care even less about automotive industry, electronics and huge number of other fields where this happens very often. We just like the end products if they work for us and care less who was the first one to come up with the idea.

As others said, this is a knife forums, full of knife enthusiasts with a lot of knowledge in this particular field. Ask a regular guy to go and choose a knife to use. Even if you tell him in advance the brief history, most likely, he will care less about who borrowed the idea from whom, he will just get what he likes and what he thinks (maybe mistakenly) that will work better for him.

If you think you don't do such a thing, you just don't have extensive knowledge about all the products that you buy and use.
 
Let's not back track. You said "cloned products" not "copied ideas". The Television is a "copied idea". I go out and I buy a Sony. I don't go out and buy a Seny because it's cheaper but looks the same as the Sony.

That is not too far away.
How would you categorize Sanrenmu 710 or Sanrenmu copy or buck nobleman (forgot the number), that was compared in the other thread. It is not a clone (different materials, size etc), but definitely a copied idea. So is it OK then?
 
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