Knife Clones - What is your beef (if any)?

[Tony8179]

He has a point. You just think about it in a bit too narrow way.

People go to grocery store and buy their house brand, because it is identical in taste to the other brand, but is cheaper. We care less who came up with the idea of potato chips with sour cream and onion and such...
People click away on their windows computers, or apple pcs and don't care who borrowed particular ideas from whom. We just like that it is comfortable.
People care even less about automotive industry, electronics and huge number of other fields where this happens very often. We just like the end products if they work for us and care less who was the first one to come up with the idea.

As others said, this is a knife forums, full of knife enthusiasts with a lot of knowledge in this particular field. Ask a regular guy to go and choose a knife to use. Even if you tell him in advance the brief history, most likely, he will care less about who borrowed the idea from whom, he will just get what he likes and what he thinks (maybe mistakenly) that will work better for him.

If you think you don't do such a thing, you just don't have extensive knowledge about all the products that you buy and use.

Thank you so much for telling me how I shop and what I buy. Whew! I'm glad I have you here to clue me in on the extensive knowledge that the choclate chip cookies I bought at the store weren't the exact same recipe as the first chocolate chip cookie ever made. And here I was all narrow minded and such.

That is not too far away.
How would you categorize Sanrenmu 710 or Sanrenmu copy or buck nobleman (forgot the number), that was compared in the other thread. It is not a clone (different materials, size etc), but definitely a copied idea. So is it OK then?

It's ridiculous to get all caught up in the words that people are using like clones, copies, fakes, and counterfeits. This thread really is loophole central. Here's the deal. If SRM is in fact an OEM for Buck, and they produce the Nobleman for Buck, and the agreement with Buck is that they can sell the same knife made from slightly different materials as model number XXX as a SRM knife then so be it. Same goes for the Axis lock. If BM says it's cool that SRM uses the Axis lock on their knives then what argument is there? That is the business practices of these companies and they can do whatever they like. If SRM is not an OEM for Buck and they are producing this knife with no permission from Buck, then to me they are stealing. Same thing with the Axis lock. I have a hard time believing that Benchmade said yeah go ahead and take our lock and toss it into a $13 folder. If that is the case though then this whole argument is for not. Until someone can prove that is the case then to me SRM and other companies like it are thieving bastards. There you have it. Black and white. My opinion.

 

[effer]

Thank you so much for telling me how I shop and what I buy. Whew! I'm glad I have you here to clue me in on the extensive knowledge that the choclate chip cookies I bought at the store weren't the exact same recipe as the first chocolate chip cookie ever made. And here I was all narrow minded and such.

That's the point, I don't have extensive knowledge of ALL the things that I (or you) buy and use. I'm pretty sure you don't have it either. I just wanted to point out that we do use/buy/support those copied ideas, many times without even being aware of it. That cookie recipe, that you are talking about, might've be exactly the same one that was stolen from a chef who came up with it 300 years ago. I'm not going to google everything what goes on the shelf at the store.
Saying that you have never paid for a stolen idea or design, just sounds too unreal to me. Not knowingly... maybe so.

It's ridiculous to get all caught up in the words that people are using like clones, copies, fakes, and counterfeits. This thread really is loophole central. Here's the deal. If SRM is in fact an OEM for Buck, and they produce the Nobleman for Buck, and the agreement with Buck is that they can sell the same knife made from slightly different materials as model number XXX as a SRM knife then so be it. Same goes for the Axis lock. If BM says it's cool that SRM uses the Axis lock on their knives then what argument is there? That is the business practices of these companies and they can do whatever they like. If SRM is not an OEM for Buck and they are producing this knife with no permission from Buck, then to me they are stealing. Same thing with the Axis lock. I have a hard time believing that Benchmade said yeah go ahead and take our lock and toss it into a $13 folder. If that is the case though then this whole argument is for not. Until someone can prove that is the case then to me SRM and other companies like it are thieving bastards. There you have it. Black and white. My opinion.

I understand your point. Basically you're saying that we shouldn't buy/support the product, if we know for sure that idea is stolen. This is a good position. It can be followed (by knife enthusiast) easy enough, in case of knives. Trying to apply the same point of view to other products might not be that simple. As a matter of fact, most people would rather not care about the issue and leave it to companies to battle out.

It is one thing to decide that I will not buy something, if it goes against my moral principles.
It is different, if I'm trying to convince the other guy that he is a bad person and supports idea thievery, if he will buy such and such knife (product). The good chances are that I have done the same thing myself, just with a different product (be it a car, tv, mp3 player, phone or whatever else).

 

[jakeyjake4528]

i may very well buy "clones ripoffs insert your word here" of various items, BUT, i didnt know that some guy 100 years ago made it and got screwed over blah blah blah...

but im a knife guy, and know a ripoff knife when i see one. i would never justify my ignorance in one area for my knowledge in another, then turn a blind eye to it. but i also have no desire for cheap knockff blades, so im covered.

buying these knockoffs just encourages more to be made, and to eliminate what small amount of originality these companies may have. a seven dollar sebenza knockoff doesnt get a second glance from me. but a seven dollar framelock that isnt a ripoff? id buy a few.

what would we rather have, cheap and original, or cheap and obvious knockoff?

 

[Robert.B]

is it a knockoff when it only looks like a Sebenza from a glance? no doubt they were inspired by one but for a non-work EDC I'd take a Sebenza over any knife, any day! I've posted this video before in the SanRenMu thread but side by side they have their differences which to me do make a difference between a "knockoff" and "inspired by"...I have a 710 on order, and when i get back to the states i'll have a CRK 21 on order (with custom graphics hopefully). But the difference is for use at work I couldn't justify taking a Sebenza, I scape steel components, debur metal i've machined and various other abuse, to do that to a Sebenza would be an attrocity! But when taking a $8 highly replaceable knife to work it isnt an issue with me...this is where the top shelf Chinese stuff has it's place with me, cheap and replaceable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_riSbAjDBY

 

[GIRLYmann]

personally speaking, if i could afford an original product,
i would look for the best deal/offer that's in the market.
if that's still not affordable or within the budget and not an urgent buy,
i guess it can wait until such time when it's within my means
in the meantime, any near similar alternative from a competing producer would suffice...that's for general goods.
the particular wants of a collector or hobbyist is very clear and distinct.
it's about obtaining self satisfaction in having the ability to own deeply yearned for or lusted objects that are largely looked upon like some coverted trophy.
if it's beyond one's means and simply an illogical move to buy,
then such a buy is very likely an ego trip.
the very reason why some people turn to counterfeits of goods;
with originals being largely unaffordable to them.
thus to pacify the uncontrollable desire of wanting to own a status symbol,
it's done with some cheap counterfeit substitute.
such action is basically...turning one's life into a lifestyle of lies.
rome fell because of it's excesses,
now it look's like a nation well known for it's industrial scale counterfeiting has learnt how it can capitalise from this weakness, and rewrite the little book on economic success.

 

[swamp]

Let's not back track. You said "cloned products" not "copied ideas". The Television is a "copied idea". I go out and I buy a Sony. I don't go out and buy a Seny because it's cheaper but looks the same as the Sony.

If anyone wants to buy a seny let them buy one.

But I am with Tony, I will only buy the Sony and for a simple reason. Quality.

I would rather have one quality knife that ten off the home shopping networks.

And also, I don't like blatant rip off's, stealing, clones, knockoff's etc of anything. I think it is stealing, and an underhanded way to make a fast dollar.:barf:

 

[2TONYB]

If anyone wants to buy a seny let them buy one.

But I am with Tony, I will only buy the Sony and for a simple reason. Quality.

I would rather have one quality knife that ten off the home shopping networks.

And also, I don't like blatant rip off's, stealing, clones, knockoff's etc of anything. I think it is stealing, and an underhanded way to make a fast dollar.:barf:

No generics at all? Not even pharmaceuticals?

 

[jakeyjake4528]

is it a knockoff when it only looks like a Sebenza from a glance? no doubt they were inspired by one but for a non-work EDC I'd take a Sebenza over any knife, any day! I've posted this video before in the SanRenMu thread but side by side they have their differences which to me do make a difference between a "knockoff" and "inspired by"...I have a 710 on order, and when i get back to the states i'll have a CRK 21 on order (with custom graphics hopefully). But the difference is for use at work I couldn't justify taking a Sebenza, I scape steel components, debur metal i've machined and various other abuse, to do that to a Sebenza would be an attrocity! But when taking a $8 highly replaceable knife to work it isnt an issue with me...this is where the top shelf Chinese stuff has it's place with me, cheap and replaceable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_riSbAjDBY

i understand what youre saying, but here are a few things to consider.

putting aside our thoughts on the sanrenmu 710, what do you call their unlicensed use of the axis lock? compare that to their lineup of "inspired by" knives, why buy from them when you can get say a kershaw half ton or cheap sypderco?

and why not just use the sebenza? not only will it take whatever you will throw at it, but it will do those dirty jobs better, hold an edge longer, less likely to have the blade snap in your hands, etc.

their really isnt an excuse or even a reason for sanrenmu not to come up with their own designs. whatever we cant agree on, rest assured whoever is in charge on sanrenmu isnt even trying to fool himself on the whole knockoff design theft issue.

 

[jakeyjake4528]

No generics at all? Not even pharmaceuticals?

arent generics usually made by the exact same people that own the rights to the original?

let me be the first to say it, id buy chinese made pharmaceuticals that were absolute theft from the big drug companies, so long as they were the exact same, aka, generic.

i would have no problem denying inflated to the moon profit for the gigantic drug companies, and if enough people felt the same..

say CRK and other knife companies were as big as the big drug comapanies. itd be MUCH harder to get anything like a sanrenmu 710 into the states.

 

[swamp]

arent generics usually made by the exact same people that own the rights to the original?

let me be the first to say it, id buy chinese made pharmaceuticals that were absolute theft from the big drug companies, so long as they were the exact same, aka, generic.

i would have no problem denying inflated to the moon profit for the gigantic drug companies, and if enough people felt the same..

say CRK and other knife companies were as big as the big drug comapanies. itd be MUCH harder to get anything like a sanrenmu 710 into the states.

OK this is one place where I REALLY know my stuff. Generic Prescripion drugs have a 20% variable allowed by law. I personally have found most generics are of a lower potency than the brand. (the patent is only valid for seven years) About the 20% this means your drugs can be 20% more potent or 20% less potent than the brand. And to the other poster, yes the maker of the brand also usually makes a generic too. However, there are tons of other generic manufacturers also. I prefer and buy brand prescrption drugs 90% of the time.