"knife-like instruments" used by Hijackers

Professor - if I may interject here --- anytime an event of this nature occurs, the "protect us from ourselves" folks jump on the loud-screaming bandwagon for more repressive anti=gun / anti= knife laws. Not to pretend to be a mind reader, but I think the post you were referring to by "Razoredge" ---- may have had some remarks to "the sheeple" that may have been irritating !! To most folks who travel by plane, security is not an issue and never think of, or beleive it's the airline responsibility that they take care of in great fashion and are prepared for a "take-over". We can't always be successful in war against terrorism, but it's a fact that the "Sheeple" politically outweigh us warriors !! Always be vigilant !!! Thanks !!!
 
Originally posted by Professor
Razoredj, as a long-standing member of this forum, I've gotta say this is one instance where I don't really understand or appreciate your cynism. Perhaps you can clarify?
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I don't understand why you classify my comments as cynicism. When dozens of people sit meekly by while their fellow passengers are stabbed -- or worse, cower in fear while men with blades merely threaten to stab or slash them -- and thus two or even three men take over an entire plane with nothing more than sharp edges, we have witnessed a particularly chilling manifestation of a society whose citizens are completely cowed. The appropriate response to a couple of men with knives is to rush them and overpower them, when you outnumber them twenty or thirty to one. You have nothing to lose but your life, after all.

There was a time when you needed firearms to take over a plane, or to rob a bank. These days all you need, it seems, is a sharp edge -- or, in the case of your average bank, a slip of paper that says, "Give me money." I think we, as a society, are becoming incredibly weak -- and I wish it was not so.
...but somehow the future of my "knife rights" is not a real key issue on my mind right now.
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It is not the primary issue, nor was the subject the first one brought up when the news occurred. It is, however, an ancillary issue, and an important one -- because politicians inevitably whore tragedy to advance their agendas, supported by those who, in their sadness or hysteria, seek something to ban in order to feel they are accomplishing something.
 
In the half hour or so after the first reports, I was talking to my Dad trying to figure out how the bastards could have acheived what they did. Two things came to mind (this is 12 hours ago and we know a little more now)

1) It would be conceivable for a larger number of determined hijackers than normal, say 15, to take over a smaller passenger aircraft without any weapons at all. Or by improvised weapons (bottles, parts of the plane interior, etc.)

2) It is also conceivable that the hijackers may have infiltrated the airline, perhaps being employed by them, which would make bypassing security easier. I think this is very unlikely, though, due to the high degree of coordination bteween all four attacks.

ITN reported 'mass stabbings' and the phone call from the solicitor general's wife about an hour ago. the source was a US official.

In terms of controlling the passengers with knives, it is common practice, even for untrained criminals, to encourage their victims to think that they will be OK if they comply. I seriously doubt that a terrorist with such a well defined objective as these would endanger his mission by giving the passengers 'nothing to lose' by having a go.
 
I agree that there will be repurcussions felt the world-round in regard to personal rights. No doubt about it.

However, we were not on those planes, and despite the "black box," or the FAA and FBI's best "theories," we will never know exactly what happened. I'm sorry, but I will not use this as yet another primer to subscribe to the "society as a whole is squeamish" modality of thinking. I've encountered a hell of a lot more ballsy people in this world than not.

More importantly, I wouldn't go within a hundred miles of a victim's loved one or family member with a "sheeple" statement. Not in this context. The heavier issues here make "knife rights" look really stupid, and I'm as Republican as they come.

Professor.
 
It certainly was not my intent to insult or offend anyone. Nor do I indict the victims; instead, I criticize the society that ingrains in them the idea that it is best to give an assailant what he wants, in the hopes that he will not hurt you. I think it is always preferable to resist. That's my opinion, and mine only. I genuinely apologize if I upset you, Professor.
 
I can see this very keenly, this sheeple mentality being to the detriment of our modern society. This could have been prevented if only a dozen willing souls were ready to put their own lives on the line for the sake of hundreds of others.

On the other hand, I'm not sure if many of the people on board realised what was happening until almost the last minute. Sure, they were being taken over by terrorists, but usually that only results in some standoff, a ransom or the release of political prisoners. It would have been inconceivable to have the aircraft used in this way.

Sure, it would be great if people are willing to give up their lives to take down the terrorists. It would send a message to others around the world that we are not a pushover, that they can't frighten us in to submission with a couple of guys brandishing knives or even guns, that they can expect a terrific fight from all the passengers and that their objectives would never be completed because all those on the plane would already be ready to give up their lives to destroy the terrorists as readily as the terrorists are to accomplish their objective. This would be a great thing as then there would be no hope for the terrorists to achieve their aims.

But still, we have to realise that with all previous hijackings, all the passengers had to do was remain calm and follow the hijacker's orders and most of the time, they could walk away from the experience relatively unharmed. In such circumstances, people are loathe to do something that might jepeordise their personal chance of survival. And just as bad, are loathe to allows others who might be willing, to do something that might affect their own safety. What can one do in this case? I am ready to put my life on the line, but can I, in good conscience, put the lives of my fellow passengers at risk when they are unwilling to do so themselves?
 
How does one go about rushing a group of knife wielding terrorists when one or all of them are holding their weapons to the neck(s) of a young child? Rushing some sick bastard with a knife and taking your own life into your hands is one thing. How do you make the decision to sacrifice a twelve year old girl for instance? These creeps had their every move well planned out or they would not have been so "successful".

Paul
 
As soon as I heard of the hijackings involved, I said to my coworkers, "all it takes is 4 big guys with pointy sticks to hijack a plain load of unarmed civilians". Two block the aisles and two to handle the cockpit. The real trick was training the pilots well enough to hit a building.
 
Paul, call me a sick MF, but the answer to your question of how do I sacrifice the child who the terrorist has a knife to her throat??

Regretfuly, in that situation, easily. But when I get my hands on the fu-c-k I'm going to rip out his throat, pull of his head and yank out his heart and eat it before his eyes.

If its a hijacker and he has a knife and I can get my belt off that guy is gonna DIE in a brutal, vicious manner.
 
I must admit I hadn't considered taking a child or children hostage in order to gain the compliance of the other passengers. For that matter, others have made very valid points describing precisely how the passengers might very reasonably have believed compliance would lead to a beneficial outcome. Hell, I've been wrong before. Why should now be different?
 
Tell me this. . . How easy would it be to hijack a plane full of armed passengers? It would be next to impossible. We've just seen that it is possible, with little frigging boxcutters, to hijack a plane full of unarmed passengers trained to comply with criminals. We make it too easy for them. Terrorism will never be eradicated completely, but more could be done. We are heading in the wrong direction by clamping down on weapons.
 
A while back I gave the security of the airworld a test. On a trip to visit my parents in the middle east (Oil Related) I brought a large BM Spike with me included in my carryon. LAX: Failed to detect it, London Heathrow: Failed, Qatar, Doha: Passed. It wasn't till I came back from the Middle East did they find the contraband & confiscat it. Knives are tools ... insane men turn them into weapons against innocent people. I love to carry my tool with me at all times ... after today & the massive loss of life ... I can wait till I get off the plane to carry it. Is this theory wrong?

This test only took place after the 20th-30th time that I was able to carry a pocket knife on board that I felt should have raised an eyebrow with security.

God rest all of their souls, let their deaths be avenged.


In the most devastating terrorist onslaught ever waged against the United States, knife-wielding hijackers crashed two airliners into the World Trade Center on Tuesday, toppling its twin 110-story towers.
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Edit: I see from the news I have been reading, I will be defending my knife rights no matter if I am on a plane or not. :(
 
It seems pretty insensitive to call the victims of this horrible tragedy "sheeple", especially when we don't yet know exactly what went on. I'm not trying to chastize anyone here though, as I must admit that I also wondered how a couple of guys with knives could take over a plane. It could have been that the passengers were just in a no-win situation.

The news has been speculating that the terrorists were flying the planes, so it seems possible that the first thing the terrorists did when they took over was to kill the pilots. That could have happened before anyone even knew what was going on. If that was the case, the passengers couldn't kill the terrorists or they would destroy any hope of landing safely. Plus, the terrorists probably also took children as hostages and assured the passengers that they would be safe if they complied (which is usually the case).

Edit - Well, I just saw this report that says that the pilots in one plane were kept alive and herded to the back of the plane.
 
If they can't assess how many, where, or what may be available on board, and the calculation for a successful hijacking would become impossibly complexed.
 
Along with the knives and box cutters it has been stated that in a phone call from one of the planes that the terrorists told the passengers that they had a bomb. They were also probably told that they would be OK if they did what they were told.

The people on these planes can not be blamed in any way for what happened. They all wanted to get home to their families. God take care of them, they didn't make it.:(
 
Originally posted by Razoredj
When dozens of people can be taken hostage by two or three men with knives and box cutters, we have seen the sheeple mentality manifested at its very worst.
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I don't understand how this is even possible??? How do you hold hundreds of people, who know they are going to die if they don't act, hostage with box cutters? The worst part is that the result of this will be a reduction in the freedom of the average american citizen. They'll strip search american citizens before they dare to offend the arabs...
 
I just saw the report that said the terrorists claimed they had a bomb on board the plane. That would seem to be a pretty good explanation of why the passengers complied. Makes more sense than if they just brandished knives.

The passengers probably weren't aware that the hijackers intended to kill themselves and more people on the ground. Maybe on the plane that crashed before it reached its target, the pilots and/or passengers figured out what was going to happen and sacrificed themselves so others wouldn't die.
 
I just heard a news report that the terrorists repeatedly stabbed stewardesses with their "knife-like objects" to lure the pilot out of the cockpit so they could gain control of the plane. What were the passengers thinking while they were stabbing them?

It will take a while for the authorities to piece together what happened, but if the terrorists were stabbing women, the mob should have ruled and stomped the crap out of those fellows, bomb threat or no bomb threat. We have all heard the stories of trouble-making passengers being subdued by other passangers, in one case, subdued to the point of death. But then, I don't believe he was armed with sharp object...
 
Well, then again, this isn't W&C "kiddie land", so maybe I can post something of import (to me anyway), without getting pacifiers tossed in my general direction...

As a knife enthusiast DOD field engineer I fly alot...with my wife living 500 miles away, I fly even more...5 flights in the last 3 weeks...

(For those W&C whiners that get upset because I don't get "right back to ya", I'm not here...I'm there, there being anywhere but here...)

I carry Spyderco's mostly, some Endura's, some Delica's....some fully serrated, some 50/50...and lots of little stuff, LST's, non-serrated stuff, folders mostly...

If I try to carry "it" through, I inveribly get stopped...and then the security guards do all kinds of weird "stuff" trying to determine if it's "legit"...measuring the blade length with their fingers and silly stuff like that...all very abitrary, and the ok seems to be given on a whim.

Sometimes I bluff with a "No, it's ok", and show my company badge with a comment that it's "issue", and "we all have them"...and away I go...

When I'm told it's not ok, I walk away it, go have a smoke, and try another "checkpoint"...or drop it in my carry-on bag and try again at the next checkpoint...it never fails, I always get through, and these knives are sharp, sharp, sharp!

Or, I just put it in the bag, or in the bag with my tools...and away I go...

It's all very arbitrary indeed.

Some airlines have been tougher than others....the South has proven rather "funky"

As far as a terrorist on board....people are sheep for the most part, I'm a half asleep sheep myself most of the time...the only time I really "freak-out" in my life is when I'm threatened with bodily harm, and then I do very inappropriate things like hurt people...

My response comes from being abused by a mentally ill relative over the course of many years when I was young...it's more of a panic response than anything else...I just wish others on the planes today would have had the same response today that I would have had...

Small children with knives to their throats...or a bomb? I'm sorry folks, but I'd be the guy leading the way to Valhalla...

I've got to agree with Ryan here, if you want to take it on, you can...at least, you could've, prior to today...
 
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