"knife-like instruments" used by Hijackers

Sirius, you have stated my position perfectly. It is easy to say that we would have done this or we would have done that. None of us knows what we would do unless we are faced with the same scenario. I hope to God that none of us ever has to make that choice.
 
Originally posted by phatch
Every day, there are 4000 airplanes flying commercially in the US alone. That's a lot of armed guards. Doable, but expensive. Not just in personnel, but the loss of paying passengers and more guaranteed weight per flight.
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I don't see how it would have an impact... From the numbers I heard, none of the planes were carrying anything near a full load of passengers. And 2 or 3 guards on the plane isn't going to have too much of an impact on ticket prices(say two guards on a 5-hour flight making $12/hour(for speculative purposes - who knows what the kind of job would pay) with 100 passengers on board, if you want to go by straight math, should add less than $1.50 to each ticket. I'm sure the marketing people will find a way to gouge your wallet, though) or the weight problems(no more than a couple more passengers, although if we want to get picky we can add those losses into the ticket hike mentioned above).

Personally, I'm glad it happened thise week. Imagine the terror if it happened when the new TV season starts! :D

Seriously though... I was a little freaked out over this entire thing, being a security guard at the FedEx ramp here at the airport Hey, there goes another F-15 over my house. Noisy things. They've been running patrols for a while. Fun to watch them take off with afterburners, and with no other traffic they can black out the lights. Things were pretty quiet last night with the airports all locked down! There go more F-15's... It's comforting having one of the best Air National Guard fighter groups in town...
 
All input here has indeed been valuable. This forum has really shone in the last two days in respect to being a place where like minds can vent and support one another, and we'll need to continue in light of the rough road ahead.

I don't think that I've ever been affected as deeply by an event like this. It's like being beat up on the schoolground by a bully; my (our) pride is hurt. Too bad for the bully that he always inevitably lost in the long run, and that's what'll happen sooner or later with our enemies in this instance.

It's also eating me that we don't have a face to whom we can assign to the damage (at least with no degree of certainty as of today). That would at least give me a mental picture to use as a projective punching bag.

Someone posted the idea over at the BM forum that the terrorists failed in a great way; instead of dividing or psychologically wounding us, they've managed to piss off and unify everyone in this country, regardless of race, religion, or political party. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want the American populus as a whole pissed of at me, no matter how crazy I was!

Professor.
 
You can be darn sure it is not just the American people that are enraged about this. It is America that has paid the price, but it is every country that deplores terrorism that must stand up and help put an end to fanatics like Bin-Laden and all that would support him and his kind. We must strike at all terrorists and the countries and people that support them. There can no longer be room for their kind on this planet.

As far as the knife-like objects is concerned, you can not stop someone from bringing that kind of weapon on a plane without cavity searches. Do you think that terrorists can not get ceramic or plastic weapons on board a plane whenever they want. Enacting rules to stop law abiding citizens from boarding a plane with pocket knives and other such things is a useless, knee-jerk reaction. I am sure that airlines and governments feel that they have to appear to the people to be doing something, even something as utterly worthless as this. Air Marshalls would help, but they are not foolproof, nothing is. In Israel terrorists have gone on board planes with no weapons and overpowered Air Marshalls and taken their guns. As long as people are willing to die for their cause the only way to stop them is to give them their wish before they can hurt anyone.
 
Of four aircraft, three struck their targets. One crashed likely because someone, pilot or otherwise, knew they were going to die anyway, and saved others (maybe they sensed what was going to happen). Again, maybe most people didn't resist because the killers said they just wanted to go somewhere else, and no problem. We don't know. One woman did cell phone her husband there was trouble, if I heard it right.

What's the answer? Move our embassies from those countries protecting bin Lauden or whatever his name is. Then hit the buildings with missiles. Ban those politicians from entering our country, and screw the U.N. if they don't like it. Blockade their countries by telling them no ships or aircraft will be allowed to leave their territory. Do so, they go down. If other nations don't like it, give them the same treatment. Then tell the U.S. oil companies if they jack up gas prices, the government will sock them with a 100% tax. The arabs haven't cut off our oil, so why should prices rise? Bud
 
The passengers were not sheeple. The terrorist said their was a bomb aboard. Most people would comply under these conditions. The people didn't know it was a suicide mission. They are not to blame.

Many people on the board said they would fight but you don't know what you will do less you were in the situation.

Knives will be banned on planes.

The FBI has uncovered a lot of evidence and the mastermind/s will pay for what they did.
 
Another thing to consider when talking about the cost of armed guards, and loss of revenue... the employees of airlines, and friends/family under "companion passes", regularly fly for free. The loss of revenue is a weak reason for them to avoid guards.
 
Originally posted by rogue_spear
The passengers were not sheeple. The terrorist said their was a bomb aboard. Most people would comply under these conditions. The people didn't know it was a suicide mission. They are not to blame.
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From what I gather, the plane that crashed in PA was was one that used the bomb scare tactic. Didn't do them much good.
 
Originally posted by KWM
As long as people are willing to die for their cause the only way to stop them is to give them their wish before they can hurt anyone.
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UM. . . I don't fukking think so. Complying with and appeasing terrorists is not the way to discourage them. A better alternative would be to kill them beforehand, or as soon as they are identified/identify themselves as terrorists. Giving them their wish before they hurt anyone won't stop them, it will only encourage them. They do what they do hoping that everyone will think like you, and they can bully their way to get whatever they want. No, the only way to stop them is to kill them all.
 
The hi-jackers got this one for free. After this, I
can't possibly imagine able-bodied passengers standing
by and allowing a hi-jacking. They have uppped the anti
so-to-speak. Now it should be perfectly clear to every-
one that once a hi-jacking starts, it's either a do or
die situation for the passengers. I sincerely doubt
that hi-jackers will ever be able to take over a plane
again without a fight from the passengers. The Texans at
Goliad surrendered without a fight and 400 men were
massacred. After that there was no more talk of surrender
from the Texans. I would imagine that same psyche is
now becoming ingrained in America.

Looks like the FAA (?) has now banned all knives on planes.

Just think what those 3 brave Americans on the flight that
crashed in Penn. could have done had they all been armed with
Bowie knives!
 
Jason, I think what Keith meant was that since they "wanted" to die, we should certainly accommodate them (before they could hurt anyone).

I'm sure he didn't mean to give them lots of valuable stuff in appeasement...

Yers,
Karl
 
Originally posted by scotjute
The Texans at Goliad surrendered without a fight and 400 men were massacred. After that there was no more talk of surrender
from the Texans. I would imagine that same psyche is
now becoming ingrained in America.
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That psyche should have been, and should be, ingrained in every American from birth. For that matter, it should be ingrained in every human. Period. Name me one other creature on this earth that will knowingly allow themselves to be killed without fighting back.

The only way to react to hi-jackings are the way the PA plane did. I can understand why the other three planes might not have, but there will be no excuse in the future.
 
First off by design one can't build strong doors because of cabin pressure and all that according to flight engineers. Secondly the airlines profit margin is really small they are working with about 4 to 5% so putting armed guards is going to be too costly for most of them. I know that we shouldn't be talking about cost when human lives are at stake, but its the nature of the beast these days. Besides that having an armed guard wouldn't probably stop these kind of people who are willing to die for a cause.

The reason that this happened was probably because the U.S. Government is more talk than action.
 
The doors can be made stronger, the Israeli's have
done it. The foward Cabin pressure can be equalized with that of the rest of the jet. It isn't that difficult.
We need to re-institute the Federal Sky Marshall
program. If these peole die(shot by an armed guard or killed by angry passengers) then you have stopped them.
The passengers/crew of the 4th jet STOPPED the hi-jackers from using the plane as a human-guided missle. Yes the plane did crash, but the terrorists did NOT achieve their objective!
Hundreds or thousands of more lives were saved.
 
While the events are tragic no matter how we debate this out. I'm sorry for that people had to die in such a tragic way. With that being said, I don't know why we must be PC about what happened. I think calling the passengers sheep is an honest statement. When you get 3 guys out of 38 passengers who know they are going to die, are the only ones willing to do something. What does that say about the other 35 people? I'm not sure if that plane was shot down by the arm forces, it seems like it didn't crash since the evidence would dictate that he broke up in mid flight. However, those 3 guys should be honored as brave men.

Oh yes for the record the isarel airlines have been taken over once before. The reason that hijackers won't attack them is because its more trouble than its worth, when there are lots of other wasy to attack them. Plus, the jewish state has a policy of beating the crap out of any state or groups that would dare to harm its people.
 
Originally posted by hannibal lecter spyderco
...the other 35 people? I'm not sure if that plane was shot down by the arm forces, it seems like it didn't crash since the evidence would dictate that he broke up in mid flight. However, those 3 guys should be honored as brave men.
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Where did you hear there was evidence it broke up in flight? The picture of the crater looked remarkably like the impact marks on the sides of the towers before they collapsed. As in, fully intact, dove into the ground.

As for "can't make the doors strong because of cabin pressure"... that's BS. I'm an aerospace engineer, I've been through the design process more than once. It can be done. Equalization of pressure is the LEAST of your worries.
 
to loosley paraphrase mel gibbson, they may take our knives but they'll never take out freedom.

if and i mean if i get on a plane again anytime soon a good ink pen, some old chopsticks, paper clips keys on a string any non weapon weapon will be with me additionall weapon or no weapon if anyone trys to take over the plane i will fight and i mean immediately with extreme fury. in short i no longer give a damn in that situation because logic say my only chance at survival and a good death is by attacking with extreme prejudice
 
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