Knife locks: Strength, Reliability and Spine Whack tests

what real live situation does a spine wack reproduce?

Just last week I was cutting open a bag of dog food under the kitchen table, while talking on the phone, when a loud noise outside startled me and I raised up quickly and the back of the knife hit the bottom of the table, a solid WHACK. If that folder had failed my accidental spine whack it would have been a bloody mess.
 
I spine whacked my Groove on several occasions, just to see what the fuss was about. I nailed it pretty hard on the edge of the desk, and nothing happened. Not even any extra play.
 
A "spine whack" test is one way to induce lock failer. Unlike the fellow above, I can't remember a single time when I "whacked" the blade and induced lock failure in a real life situation.

Another way, and one that is more realistic for me is a "wiggle" test. This is just a simple, low force approach where I use my left hand to wiggle the blade while holding the frame in the right hand. This test works really well on liner locks. This test is particularly good for testing when a knife will fail when cutting thick cardboard or other fibrous materials that can "grab" the blade. When you try to free the blade, usually by pulling "up and out" you get a "wiggle" on the blade that has a tendency to loosen a liner-lock.

When it comes to liner locks, there are a number of problematic issue such as gunk collecting in between the scale/frame and the lock and detent "drag-out" and "catch-in" that are a much bigger deal to me from an overall performance perspective than lock failure.
I think lock failure on most higher-quality knives is going to be much less of an issue than day-to-day performance on ease of opening and closing, cleaning and clip issues.

I do the same thing with my emerson commander. I do the wiggle test, if it seems a little loose I'll just tighten the pivot a little bit and that's that. I've never had a knife fail me, but to be honest, the emerson commander is the only liner lock that I trust. I have batoned with it and done everything else that I can think of and the lock hasn't failed me even when pulling the knife out of the logs. I do like my benchmades with the axis lock, but it just seems tedious having to clean them up so much after a weekend campout. Liner locks and frame locks just seem a lot simpler to clean.

Here is a link to a thread I made earlier if you guys want to put in your input about a locks lifetime expectancy.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=528281
 
Why are we purchasing knives blatantly marketed for their lock strength and promoted by the companies that make them as being able to hold specific amounts of weight, then claiming that performing tests ourselves on these claims is heretical?

There is nothing wrong with a spinetap. A full force spinewhack can and often will damage the knife, even if its just minor denting in the liner / tang junction. But a light tap to the spine, along with applying pressure to the spine are both good ways to check for lock consistency rather than relying solely on visual means.

I don't understand the controversy. In normal use, a knife won't be pushed in this manner. But that doesn't preclude the possibility of an accident, not to mention that there are some, albeit rare real world uses that can induce lock failure.

-Stabbing into an object to start a cut, especially if care is not taken to properly thrust into the object loading the edge.
-Having the knife wedge in wood, cardboard, thick plastic etc. and trying to pull it out.
-Tapping the spine on the edge of a trash can or a cutting board to remove debris after cutting up food.
-Using the spine of a folder to create sparks from a fire steel or scrape things

I EDC slipjoints such as a Spyderco UKPK, Leathermans and SAKs and traditional stockmans. When I buy a locking folder I expect a quality lock, for that is one of the features I'm spending my money on. Why would you want to own a lock knife that can't take a simple 50 pound load to the spine or handle an accidental bump against the spine when there are many, many knives that can take much more "abuse" than this?

I had a Buck Strider 889 that failed light spinetaps. Buck essentially told me after I sent it in that the knife was up to their standards. I could of kept the knife and used it and probably been alright, especially considering the choil in that specific knife design, but it seemed like an accident waiting to happen. I didn't want to poke the knife into a box one day and have it fold like a weak slipjoint. That to me contradicts the whole idea of having a locking knife. I never use my locking folders like a fixed blade because I do not wish to tempt fate, but any folder that has a lock should have a safe, secure and reliable one. If they're an added safety measure, what's the point if it folds under light pressure? That's worse than using a slipjoint because at least those have resistance when they close while most locking folders swing freely after disengaging the lock.
 
Vivi very well said.

I don't understand the controversy either. Why is this an issue?
 
Vivi very well said.

I don't understand the controversy either. Why is this an issue?

What he said, good words Vivi :thumbup:. In the end, it's best to treat all folding knives as if they are slipjoints. I would expect a lot more resistance from my benchmade's with the axis lock than my liner and frame lock knives regardless of the brand names on them. I love my emerson commander, but I wouldn't expect it to withstand a 1000 pound test like the axis locks. You get what you pay for, and if you paid for a quality locking knife, then good for you, but if you paid for a knife with a questionable lock, treat it as such and watch your index finger 'cause that's the first one to go. There's nothing wrong with spine wacking a few knives if that is the kind of personal testing that some people choose to do. Knife companies do far worse to make sure their products are up to par. *gets off soap box* I'm done, J.
 
In the end, it's best to treat all folding knives as if they are slipjoints.

When I "test" the lock on my knives, I just give it a firm little push on the spine as if I was closing a slippie. If it doesn't close, and they never have, it's strong/reliable enough for my use.
 
With such great concerns allover the forums about lock failure, why is it that I have never heard anything positive about the CRKT LAWKS/AutoLAWKS feature?

I have it on my M16 and don't see how it could possibly fail. I mean sure, if you put it in a vice and hit it with a hammer you could probably bend the liner lock. But IMO this system completely elimates the possibilty of of the lock wiggling open during ANY of the normal use situations discussed so far.
 
With such great concerns allover the forums about lock failure, why is it that I have never heard anything positive about the CRKT LAWKS/AutoLAWKS feature?

I have it on my M16 and don't see how it could possibly fail. I mean sure, if you put it in a vice and hit it with a hammer you could probably bend the liner lock. But IMO this system completely elimates the possibilty of of the lock wiggling open during ANY of the normal use situations discussed so far.

I do have an M16-14, and I do like the LAWKS system but there are those who disagree. Some people don't have the dexterity to mess with so many "Gadgets" even if it is purely for safety ;). Good knife too, one of my favorites to flip flop around to during my personal EDC dispute.
 
Cant comment on auto lawks , plain lawks was a flawed concept , a poorly executed , weak liner lock , an a saftey device ya forgot to engage . Now picture yourself in a real stress situation , Murphy lives !!

Knife safties follow the same general rule as firearm safties , always use , never trust .

Chris
 
lots of guys carry a folder as a means of defense, especially in areas where they can't carry a gun. This is where the potential for lock failure is at it's greatest. I don't worry about lock failure while doing chores or cutting open boxes. But if you have to use a folder to defend yourself and your target trys to wack it out of your hand... you can definitely experience a lock failure. And from that point maybe lose a finger. No sir... I don't trust folders. When I go into an area where my HK USP is a no no... I take a small fixed blade horizontal belt carry in the Small of my back. This is why just a leatherman does me fine as a chore folder. 154cm blade and stays razor sharp. Don't need anything else. No body needs a $500.00 folder with a vault like lock to open boxes and cut rope. Everything else is just personal preference.
 
i think spine whacks should be called spine taps, ya dont have to hit it hard to see if the lock is locking properly, a lite tap will show ya all ya need to know imho.

heavy whacking is just too hard on the knife imho and is needless anyway.

agreed. light spine-tapping is enough and could be useful just for reassurance that your knife won't fail. doing hard spine-whacks can instantly increase the age of your brand new knife's lock by five years of wear

i noticed most failures occur on liner-locks and cheapo backlocks and framelockers. least failures occur with axis lock, compression lock and automatics

slip-joints are notorious for whack-failure too......just kiddin'

d75
 
1st, inspect the lock. dirt in a lock-back well will cause a defeat that will "cap" the adjacent corners of the tang & lock and cause permanent damage.

Then a light spine tap.

I have seen more than one knife that was destroyed by spine whacking and the customer blamed it on the knife and expected a replacement. :rolleyes:

sal
 
i give most of my folders and fairly stiff tap on the edge of my desk. not that hard, though. probably about as hard as you would hit when setting a nail into a piece of wood.
 
With such great concerns allover the forums about lock failure, why is it that I have never heard anything positive about the CRKT LAWKS/AutoLAWKS feature?

I have it on my M16 and don't see how it could possibly fail. I mean sure, if you put it in a vice and hit it with a hammer you could probably bend the liner lock. But IMO this system completely elimates the possibilty of of the lock wiggling open during ANY of the normal use situations discussed so far.

i dont like it myself, especially the auto lawks, its not needed on a good lock anyway imho, of course imho ALL CRKTs should have one lol.

i can tell ya one thing for sure, CRKT locks can fail on ya,
 
i dont like it myself, especially the auto lawks, its not needed on a good lock anyway imho, of course imho ALL CRKTs should have one lol.

i can tell ya one thing for sure, CRKT locks can fail on ya,
Have you ever had a CRKT with AutoLAWKS fail?
 
Two points

Unbreakable makes an excellent point; any folder is, by definition, a compromise and not equivalent to a fixed blade in terms of strength. I agree, carrying a folder means you value the convenience over the strength and accept the compromise . . . of course, you look for the least compromise possible.

If people want to test their knives by spine hits, taps, whacks or whatever that's fine by me but I haven't had a folder lock fail yet in normal usage. On the two occasions I can recall when a folder closed unexpectedly, I had accidentally pushed the lock aside as I held it . . . lock fine, operator unattentive.
 
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