Knife locks: Strength, Reliability and Spine Whack tests

orthogonal1 said:
And, the issue is?

Send the knife back to Benchmade for repairs.

BTW - Just for giggles, just did a 25 set of pull-ups using a Rukus as a peg to pull-up from.
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The issue is the knife failed. What part of 'failed' is confusing you? BTW I just did 50 pullups using a Buck 110 as a peg, bite me. I live in an area where the failure of a knife may mean the difference between life and death for me or my family. Fixed blades are not always practical, most of my work is done with a slipjoint but when I need my tactical folder I NEED MY TACTICAL FOLDER! You wanna make wise-ass remarks, fine, don't expect any respect from me.
 
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yobbos1 said:
The issue is the knife failed. What part of failed is confusing you? BTW I just did 50 pullups using a Buck 110 as a peg, bite me. I live in an area where the failure of a knife may mean the difference between life and death for me or my family. Fixed blades are not always practical, most of my work is done with a slipjoint but when I need my tactical folder I NEED MY TACTICAL FOLDER! You wanna make wise-ass remarks fine don't expect any respect from me.
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There is no "issue". You have an apparently faulty knife that needs to be sent in for repair. Or, if you have the skill, repair it yourself since Axis-locks are pretty easy to figure out.

Determining whether a lock is faulty or trustworthy is the whole point of doing any of the various tests of lock integrity.


Didn't ask for "respect".

Keep that 110, the lock is stronger than average in my experience.
 
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I've been using folders for over 50 years and have never spine whacked a slip joint. Never had one fail either. We have drifted away from spring resistance to lock designs that depend on quality manufacturing to work safely. A lot of locking knives have the tip too low in relation to handle which could put pressure on closing.

I think Spyderco is going in the right direction with their UK series non locking knives where finger choil is part of anti-closing design.
 
wally@ferguson said:
I've been using folders for over 50 years and have never spine whacked a slip joint. Never had one fail either. We have drifted away from spring resistance to lock designs that depend on quality manufacturing to work safely. A lot of locking knives have the tip too low in relation to handle which could put pressure on closing.

I think Spyderco is going in the right direction with their UK series non locking knives where finger choil is part of anti-closing design.
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You make some arguments with merit.

You also point to a minor issue I have with the UKPK, i.e. the blade tip is below the pivot axis of the blade such that in stabbing moves the blade wants to close.

I've had slipjoints where the tip is above this axis.

"Finger choils" are a give and take. When many agencies measure blade length, it is from blade to handle. The "finger choil" in some designs results in a measured blade length noticeably less than the cutting edge length.
 
orthogonal1 said:
There is no "issue". You have an apparently faulty knife that needs to be sent in for repair. Or, if you have the skill, repair it yourself since Axis-locks are pretty easy to figure out.

Determining whether a lock is faulty or trustworthy is the whole point of doing any of the various tests of lock integrity.


Didn't ask for "respect".

Keep that 110, the lock is stronger than average in my experience.
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Faulty knives marketed as the best in the business don't get sent in for repair, they get retired. I have good knives, I will continue to carry my good ones regardless of the make or the country of origin. I reserve the right to judge quality and reliability by my standards. As for respect; you ain't gettin' any due to your flippant remarks about a legitimate issue. Don't imply that I have no repair skills, I have them and I use them. I will not waste my time in a futile attempt to repair any tool that has a serious design flaw.
 
I prefer a snipe-tap test, rather than a full-force spine-whack. I tap about as hard as you would if you were setting a nail into some wood.
 
yobbos1 said:
Faulty knives marketed as the best in the business don't get sent in for repair, they get retired. I will not waste my time in a futile attempt to repair any tool that has a serious design flaw.
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Many people(myself included) have had no problems with th AXIS lock; none.
It appears you just have an issue with Benchmade.
 
I have absolutely NO issues with Benchmade. This particular knife FAILED, my others do not. I also mentioned my SOG with a similar lock FAILED my other SOG's did not. I do not mention the model because I don't have a problem with the brand. I have four Benchmade's and all the others are perfect. They are just not my first choice for EDC due to size, blade length etc.
 
Orthogonal1 said: Keep in mind that 110, the lock is stronger than average in my experience.






I take it you admit the axis lock is not as foolproof as marketed.
 
yobbos1 said:
I have absolutely NO issues with Benchmade. This particular knife FAILED, my others do not. I also mentioned my SOG with a similar lock FAILED my other SOG's did not. I do not mention the model because I don't have a problem with the brand. I have four Benchmade's and all the others are perfect. They are just not my first choice for EDC due to size, blade length etc.
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just because one knife has problems doesnt mean the whole axis concept is flawed, i have had around a dozen axis lock knives and all have been 100%, if your BM has lock issues ya need to send it in to BM for repair, lock problems with axis locks arent common imho, some knives, for example CRKT, have a lotta issues with locks, BM does not be it liner lock, axis, whatever.
 
yobbos1 said:
Faulty knives marketed as the best in the business don't get sent in for repair, they get retired. I have good knives, I will continue to carry my good ones regardless of the make or the country of origin. I reserve the right to judge quality and reliability by my standards. As for respect; you ain't gettin' any due to your flippant remarks about a legitimate issue. Don't imply that I have no repair skills, I have them and I use them. I will not waste my time in a futile attempt to repair any tool that has a serious design flaw.
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I don't get it :confused: You have a knife that does not work as advertised and you are not going to send it back in for repair? There is no "design flaw" with the axis knives. You just got a lemon - it happens.
 
yobbos1 said:
I do not mention the model because I don't have a problem with the brand.
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So now we are left with one single unknown knife failing one single test, and no one can test theirs to corroborate it

yobbos1 said:
Orthogonal1 said: Keep in mind that 110, the lock is stronger than average in my experience.

I take it you admit the axis lock is not as foolproof as marketed.
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Cannot see what a stronger than average lockback has to do with an axis lock reliability. Two different locks, two different attributes.
 
Alright, alright! Just to prove I am not totally unreasonable, I will send the knife back to Benchmade for repair. I know when I'm beat. For the record I will state yet again that I LIKE Benchmade, there is another active thread right now where I have extolled the virtues of the 710 D2 as a classic design. Just got irritated at the snide remarks at my displeasure of having a relatively expensive knife not live up to the hype. For anyone who cares I will report on Benchmade's service and the reliability of the repaired/replaced lock when it is returned.
 
yobbos1 said:
Orthogonal1 said: Keep in mind that 110, the lock is stronger than average in my experience.


I take it you admit the axis lock is not as foolproof as marketed.
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Use the correct quote. I wrote: "Keep that 110, the lock is stronger than average in my experience".

I admit is that you have reported a knife possessing an Axis-lock that is faulty.

I admit you should send that knife in to be repaired. Not a big deal for most people.

I admit is that you have reported a knife possessing an ARC-lock that is faulty.

I admit you should send that knife in to be repaired. Not a big deal for most people.


I further admit that since apparently you need a knife to determine the "difference between life and death for me or my family" you should avoid any "TACTICAL FOLDER" that has an easily accessable, modern lock, since you appear to be cursed when acquiring them, i.e. you seem to repeatedly get faulty examples as examplified by your statement "I just tried a spine whack with an axis lock. Failed miserably... Tried one more with SOG's axis copy-failed as well".

EDIT - Missed the posting of the indication of sending the knife in for repair.
 
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I am not cursed with acquiring faulty locks I test them to best of my ability without being abusive and some fail. If memory serves in 15 years of collecting and using I have had 1 framelock fail, two or three linerlocks fail and one axis and one arc fail. Out of 150 or so locking folders this is in the 3-5 % range, not bad really. The reason I posted here was to express my surprise at the type of lock that failed, I just didn't expect it. It is not unreasonable to record this sort of reaction at all. I suspect the hostility here is due to some sort of misdirected brand loyalty I can't see any other reason for attacking someone for honestly bringing an issue to people's attention. My test is not scientific but it is the one I have always used and will continue to do so. I would have prefered to keep brands and trademarks out of this discussion but the axis is kind of unique to the brand and was unavoidable. BTW since it is Sunday morning and I had some time on my hands I decided to take the knife apart and refit the omega springs, reassembled the knife and tested it very hard. PASS. May have some trouble working up the level of trust I like to have in a folder but it doesn't seem necessary to return it now.
 
I'm down to one Axis lock right now(HK14210) and I've always stripped the knife down and stretched the Omega springs. I learned this on the heavy bladed Rukus which I believe had the same Omega springs as the 14210.

IMO Axis lock bar on tang ramp is one hell of a strong lock design, but it needs stromg Omega spring pressure to keep blade closed and more importantly, to prevent spine whack vibrations from dislodging lock bar.

Axis lock wasn't designed to pass spine whacks. That test seemed to surface when crummy liner locks started showing up.
 
I personally think spine whacks are dumb. In use a folding knife never experiences a fast sharp impact to the spine.

I like seeing the weight tests that multiple companies have done. Clamp the blade in a vise, and start hanging weight off the butt of the handle. That better replicates, in a scientific and quantifiable way, what extreme pressures the lock can sustain.
 
from a mechanical standpoint, shouldn't the axis lock be very reliable since the omega springs are at rest when the blade is in the handle, and they're also at rest when the blade is deployed? I'm not sure but for a frame lock or liner lock isn't the spring only at rest when the blade is deployed?
 
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