Knife Maker gives customer list to police.

Look you guys, if the internet company had been a hardware store and had sold the guy a large pipe wrench or a car that had then been used to kill someone you wouldn't have any problem about turning over customer lists to solve the crime. And if you did have a problem with it then you're an idiot who does not belong in this society. There is absolutely no difference here. People who commit crimes should be brought to justice. It is too bad that they used a knife in this case.

I read news stories everyday about stabbings and it depresses me. Too many people tend to regard knives as weapons rather than tools. After all, they are convenient, pocket sized, legal and very capable of inflicting damage.

Large tactical folders scare people more than barlow jackknives for a reason. One was designed to inflict maximum damage in a combat situation and the other to open bales of hay. You could use either knife for either task but let's not pretend what they were designed for. It is the identical argument with assault rifles. I would hate to see tactical folders somehow segregated out from other knives and made illegal but it could happen.

I am a big fan of tactical folders and I buy over the internet. I am also a responsible person with impulse control but lots of folks are not. The trouble with internet sales of pipe wrenches, knives, chainsaws, bricks, unopened canned goods and other dangerous objects is that there is no way to regulate them whatsoever. You could never tell how old your clients were if they paid by MO for instance, let alone how mentally stable.

Don't forget that every one of you who posts on this board is leaving a lasting trail of messages for anyone to trace. If someone committed a crime with a knife in your neighborhood they could come knocking on your door for information. We feel pretty cozy here but the fact of the matter is that internet boards are public places so watch what you say. Especially if you're thinking about knocking over that liquor store....




------------------
Peter Atwood

email: fountainman@hotmail.com
 
Totally Fountainman.
I just don't get the point at being mad at a manufacturer for helping.

In the Jon Benet Ramsey case, police went to McGuckin's Hardware and obtained credit card slips, register receipts and security video. None of which proved anything - YET.
Had to do with rope and duct tape purchases.

In the OJ case they've got video of him doing sports announcing in the same brand gloves and shoes as used in the crime and found (glove and shoe prints) at the scene.

In the Columbine case, there were records of gun purchases that were used to catch AND convict two "adults" who supplied weapons in the massacre to MR Klebold and Mr Harris, both minors.One accompiilice pled guilty and now faces civil wrongful death charges. In addition, a major internet provider released information to authorities about the murderers activities on the site.
In the same case, Jefferson County (Colorado) Sherriffs Department is facing multiple suits for alledged mishandling of the incident. Charges are being supported (or not) by videotapes from local news stations as well as security cameras inside the school, 911 phone call recordings and documents submitted at the time of and after the incident.

Anyway my point is that evidence secured prior to an arrest isn't Big Brother stuff but is used to not only apprehend suspects but build the case when it gets to court to secure a conviction. Part of a fair trial. Fair to the accused and the victims and society.

John Row
colobbfan
 
Well Amalgam, it seems you have failed to learn that if we do not police ourselves, it will be done for us! Take your choice. We're not buying and selling cake and ice cream here. I have given over 20 years of my life exclusively to the knife world and would like to be able to see the next generation have the freedom to do the same.

Ted Frizzell
Mineral Mountain Hatchet Works
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ted Frizzell:
I have given over 20 years of my life exclusively to the knife world and would like to be able to see the next generation have the freedom to do the same</font>
Click to expand...

Then you better start standing up for your rights.

If you want to see the definitive answer on this issue look at Busse's responce in the Busse forum.
 
I still think all the people complaining about the release of the list would be complaining just as much if it was your relative that was killed and a company was slowing down the investigation by not releasing their customer list.
 
Brad1407, If it were a family member of mine I don't think I could think objectively about the legalities involved. Some folks condone torture to get a confession from a suspect, but does that make it right?
When we are tampering with the rights of US citizens we cannot allow our emotions to cloud our thinking.
I hope the killer(s) are caught and convicted, but not at the expense of our Constitutional rights (which thousands of men and women have died to protect).
There is nothing wrong with cooperating with the police IF the police are using proper and legal methods. It is a fact that there are good cops and bad cops. I believe most LEOs are good honest folks, but there are some who will bend and break the law when it suits their purposes. That is why our nation has established checks and balances of power (from the President to the street cop). The court order and the warrant are tools to make sure the police are not abusing their power.
I believe the police should have obtained a court order or warrant for the information they recieved. The system is sometimes painfully slow but that is the cost of maintaining our rights and freedoms.
 
So, is there any evidence that the authorities have acted in a criminal manner with info provided?
Are we just assuming they will? Guilty till proven innocent?
John
 
Would it be okay if the FBI tapped your phone without a warrant or court order, just as long as they did'nt use any info in a criminal manner?

 
I'm sure that several members of this forum are, as I am, target shooters, gun collectors, reloaders, etc. And I bet many of them are reading this thread and, as I am, muttering: "Oh, geez - here we go again." Whatever your thoughts about this topic, the details, the results - get vocal! Protect your rights as a knife owner. Do it now. Do it often. Or, the days of requiring a "carry licence" for a tactical folder will be just around the corner. By those who hold the power, silence is interpreted as approval. So, get loud. Before it's too late. Make phone calls to state representative, write to government agencies, whatever. If you want to write a letter and feel your skills aren't up to it, ask for help. BTW, I have a standing offer at the range and club that I belong to: if you want to write a letter to an agency to express your displeasure at some idiotic new, or old, firearms restriction and feel you don't have the skills necessary, send me a rough copy and I will write it for you, for free of course (I'm a professional writer). Go ahead, ask me how many people have taken me up on my offer! Don't be shy - ask! In nine years of membership, how does ZERO sound? And these are fellow gun owners who are constantly discussing the absurdity of magazine and barrel lengths restrictions. But actually DO something? Nawwww - the other guy/girl will do it. Yea, right.

Love knives? Get involved in guaranteeing you'll get to keep them.

------------------
Holger
:c{{{&lt;
 
Well from the sounds of the info being released,I'm not sure it was necessary to release a whole list of names.Wouldn't have been possible for the Police to just ask the maker specifically the names that were needed,they already had a fingerprint to boot.I don't see what was gained to release a complete list of everyone that purchased that type of knife if they already knew who they were looking for.I'm for catching the bad guy's but not at any expense, and I'm interested in keeping my personnel info from being uneccessarily released. I agree what was posted about staying within the confines of the constitution and the proper legal procedures to gain information,particularly when it involves innocent parties.I see where Ted F. is coming from,however you have to remember there are people that your releasing info on that have absolutely nothing to do with the situation.I don't say to protect a criminal,but everyone jumps to a conclusion that just because police are questioning about a suspect,does not mean they are guilty.We have a big problem in the USA,people jump to conclusions and your convicted the minute the handcuffs are on,and we need to remember not to prejudge"Innocent Until Proven Guilty"It is also true that personal feelings have no business getting involved in peoples rights.This is the reason we have our constitutional rights assaulted on a daily basis,because people allow themselves to get sweeped up in emotions rather than facts and wind up with truly useless and overly imposing
(often unconstitutional) legislation
P.S. I'm glad they caught the individuals.
 
I'm not aware of most members' of the forums jobs, but are there any LEO , detectives and the like, who want to comment on this? I'm sure there may have have been some who have contributed but not sure.
And a arbitary wire tap or surveillance on me just doesn't add up to the same as a directed inquiry into a double homicide investigation. We may be basing too much of our discussion from a news report that it was a "list" and not simply the single inquiry mentioned already about an individual suspect.
 
There would be a big hole in the prosecution's case if they neglected to look for other owners of the "unusual" knife used in the murder who might have had motivation for the murder.

I would hate to be the supplier of a murder weapon who failed to cooperate with the police and subsequently another murder was commited. You would be reasonably safe from criminal prosecution, but you might find yourself included in a wrongfull death civil suit.
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by colobbfan:
I'm not aware of most members' of the forums jobs, but are there any LEO , detectives and the like, who want to comment on this? .</font>
Click to expand...

I have been a cop for nearly 8 years. I think my comments have been clear. You dont violate the constitutional rights of innocent peaple. Not even to catch a murderer.
 
Thanks AR15
Just don't know everyone well enough to know their occupations.

I FOUND THE POST AT BUSSE!

Also, my apologies I'm a bit rusty, which Constitutional Right is in question as to the list? NOT FIGHTING just interested!
Thanks
John

[This message has been edited by colobbfan (edited 02-21-2001).]
 
From the story I think we lack sufficient information to formulate an opinion as to the propriety of the dealers actions (not that dealer had much choice, BTW).

If the facts are: the murder weapon was left at the scene, it was an extremely unique knife, the police traced it to dealer X,I am not troubled by the dealer cooperating. I suspect that that may have been what happened. I'm sure the authorities didn't blindly canvas every dealer on the net (it would take a long time); they probably had a good reason to ask the dealer that they asked.

Frankly, as for 4th amendment protections, you would be shocked at some of the inquiries by the authorities that are not deemed even to be "searches". Remeber, warrants are only required for searches. In inquiries that don't rise to the level of a "search" the authorities really only have to ask in order to obtain information.

Generally, bank records, phone records, video store purchases/ rentals
eek.gif
, and most business transactions are not viewed as activites about which we have a legitimate expectation of privacy; hence, inquiries about them are not searches.
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by 10-5K:
If the facts are: the murder weapon was left at the scene, it was an extremely unique knife, the police traced it to dealer X,</font>
Click to expand...

Actually, from reading everything i could find about the case, It appears the suspects left the knife SHEATH at the scene. It was a relatively unique knife sheath. The cops were able to identify the knife by its sheath. The police contacted the MANUFACTURER who sells manufacturer direct. The manufacturer gave the Police a list of EVERYONE who had bought that model of knife.

 
I'm an LEO also and have a different take than on this that AR15fan. I just don't see this as a violation of anyones rights. If the maker gave up the list after being asked for one there is no violation of law. It's the same as doing a consent search. If I ask to search your car and you say yes your rights weren't violated you made the choice to say ok. Before you say "but I didn't give permission for my info to be released the maker did that". You don't have to give your permission. When you had some type of business transaction with the maker and he made a record of that transaction the record is the makers property not yours and as such he can release it if he wants to. If I work a theft case where the suspect was video taped I don't need to get a warrant to take that tape into evidence as long as the store is willing to give it to me.
 
Hello! Okay, everyone take a breather! In...out...in...out. Now, I just read all this arguing. Pretty intense stuff. First off, I'm going to assume that everyone who posts here loves knives, as this is not exactly a place where newbies gather. Second, let's remember that we do not have many definitive facts about the police investigation. We only have what the reporters have given us. And I think we all know we can't put much faith in those folks at all. Remember the election night results? Thirdly, stick together on being responsible knife owners. Before yall's arguments give any politicians bright ideas about restricting knives, remember our president is now a gun and knife loving Texan (see, there's one good thing). And, it would be pretty damn funny to watch these politicians eat their fancy steak dinners (paid for by lobbyists) without a steak knife. OG likeum steak!!!

Now here's something for thought. The fact that the internet knife sales exist is what allowed these dudes to purchase a knife that was so easily traced. The fact that everything done on the internet is so easily traced is what facilitated this investigation. Internet knife sales practically solved this case. When a person is nuts...they are nuts. If those kids hadn't gotten their fancy knives, then they would have used a generic axe, butter knife, plastic spork (who knows). They would have found a way.

Now, here is my question. In all my years, I've only ever owned one mass production knife that asked the owners to register it. I seriously doubt these kids bought a custom-made knife, and only a custom made knife would be sold only directly from the manufacturer. I'm betting they bought a couple of nice, mass produced knives and sent in the owner registration materials. Remember, we've already established that they are a few cards short of a full deck. I'm thinking they used a Boker Applegate / Fairbain combat knife. That sheath is a dead give away, and it's the only knife I've ever owned where the manufacturer required me to register in order to get my warranty.

Anybody else have any suggestions on the type of knife?



------------------
Stay back! or I'll...OUCH...cut myself.
 
Several makes and models come to mind. BTW on CNBC reporting, the knife in question was "down graded" from a Commando type to just a "Miltary" style knife.
John Row
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top