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My number one goal at shows, is to sell out as quick as possible...
..
Why?
David
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Knife Show Question
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Why?
David
I see your point. Your point is to make your point, but I think you missed mine. My point, after reading and talking with people about show attendance dropping, is that the internet has been a "game changer" and like Chuck says, the shows must adapt or die. I make the point in an effort to promote thinking of ways to make knife shows more attractive to more people. My reluctance to attend certain shows for the reasons I stated, is felt by many. Years ago, other than a magazine writeup, a knife show was the only way for a maker to gain public awareness. The thinking was different and it has degraded. If you want the industry to grow, if you want shows to cultivate new interest, to benefit new makers, established makers and purveyors, then try to see my point rather than picking apart semantics.
Pete
Pete
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I remember once hearing Les say that when a maker chooses to inflate his prices to the level of the secondary market demand it was the "kiss of death". (As best i can recall, paraphrased)
if a maker sells out before the show opens, does it (sometimes) skew the perception of demand? Couldnt it also say he's just selling out too cheap?
David
if a maker sells out before the show opens, does it (sometimes) skew the perception of demand? Couldnt it also say he's just selling out too cheap?
David
Les Robertson
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HI Pete,
This may be the reason for some confusion. Custom knives is not an industry...not even close. Even though shows are about getting paid.
What you want in a show happens at the AKI. Other than that...all bets are off.
As I wrote earlier it has been that way for the last 25 years....long before the Internet had anything to do with selling a knife.
This may be the reason for some confusion. Custom knives is not an industry...not even close. Even though shows are about getting paid.
What you want in a show happens at the AKI. Other than that...all bets are off.
As I wrote earlier it has been that way for the last 25 years....long before the Internet had anything to do with selling a knife.
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Shows are still king in my book. If I am looking for a knife from a maker who has sold out, it really is not that big of a deal to me. I just ask if they can make me a knife. It may be years before it happens, but it happens. Sometimes you can have one waiting for you at the next show or next years show.
Les Robertson
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HI David,
Im not going to speak for Don other than to say. Don is one of a very few custom knife makers whose sole source of income is custom knives. As such I suspect he has learned that hard lesson...take the money when it is offered.
Close enough. Makers who raise their prices based on after market prices will eventually find themselves out of a job.
Actually when I first became a dealer that was how many makers determined when it was time to raise their prices. They would sell the knife to the dealer and then the dealer would try to get as much as they could for the knife. If the dealer consistently sold the knife for over retail, the maker would raise their price.
Makers who utilized this pricing concept were walking a very thin line. What dealers know (and apparently a larger portion of the makers don't know) is that there are only a certain amount of buyers for any knife at a particular price point. Consequently, eventually you will find that number and that will be it.
The Dealer can move to the next maker...the maker on the other hand is stuck there. If you think Don selling out too quickly sends a confusing message. Imagine what selling your knives for less money than you did 6 months before.
I was asked years ago at a seminar by a maker "When do I raise my prices" .
My answer was, when all you take home from a show is your table cover and an order book...with orders in it.
Don, unlike most makers knows exactly what his market position is. Consequently he knows exactly how to price his knives. I suspect the reason for the quick sell out is not that his knives are under priced. But his collectors see his demand and view his knives a "Value Priced".
Im not going to speak for Don other than to say. Don is one of a very few custom knife makers whose sole source of income is custom knives. As such I suspect he has learned that hard lesson...take the money when it is offered.
Close enough. Makers who raise their prices based on after market prices will eventually find themselves out of a job.
Actually when I first became a dealer that was how many makers determined when it was time to raise their prices. They would sell the knife to the dealer and then the dealer would try to get as much as they could for the knife. If the dealer consistently sold the knife for over retail, the maker would raise their price.
Makers who utilized this pricing concept were walking a very thin line. What dealers know (and apparently a larger portion of the makers don't know) is that there are only a certain amount of buyers for any knife at a particular price point. Consequently, eventually you will find that number and that will be it.
The Dealer can move to the next maker...the maker on the other hand is stuck there. If you think Don selling out too quickly sends a confusing message. Imagine what selling your knives for less money than you did 6 months before.
I was asked years ago at a seminar by a maker "When do I raise my prices" .
My answer was, when all you take home from a show is your table cover and an order book...with orders in it.
Don, unlike most makers knows exactly what his market position is. Consequently he knows exactly how to price his knives. I suspect the reason for the quick sell out is not that his knives are under priced. But his collectors see his demand and view his knives a "Value Priced".
silenthunterstudios
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In regards to makers staying at the shows, the only show I have attended that would be a blip on the radar would be the Chesapeake show. One of the exhibitors, J Neilson, is always there when I get there, with a few of his mid tech models (still great knives), and a photo album full of his work, because he has already sold his work, as far as I know. He stays all day, again as far as I know.
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Hi Pete,
Actually point was to respond to the very first issue raised in your original post:
I neither missed your point nor claimed to have provided an all-encompassing response. You complained that you turned up to a show, first in line and all the good stuff was sold, therefore you'd never back. I responded to that. If you would care to point out where I was picking apart semantics, I'd be grateful - because I don't see it.
Yes - the internet has had an impact on knife shows -I don't know anyone who would disagree with that observation. I also believe the internet HAS contributed to the growth of the industry, the introduction of new makers, and the benefit of both established makers and purveyors, don't you? Tell me - do you think dealers sell more knives now with web sites, or before with mailed out lists and a few poorly developed 4 x 6 colour prints?
Is it all roses? Absolutely not. But pining for the good old days is an exercise in wistful romanticism. They aren't coming back. And as Les has pointed out, makers selling before the show doors open is not a post-internet phenomenon by any stretch of the imagination.
You are correct in that shows need to adapt. The internet will never replace shows completely - but that, together with the increased cost and increased hassle of travelling to a show probably means that there isn't enough of a travelling customer base to support the vast number of shows that currently exist. I see the "too many shows" issue as vastly more significant than the "my favourite maker sold out" issue in an industry-wide context. Others may see it differently.
A point for you to ponder in your effort to think of ways to make shows more attractive to potential attendees: do you think focussing on the ability to get a knife is generally playing to a strength of shows, or to a weakness? There are more knives available right now through a few clicks of the mouse - from dealers, makers and fellow collectors - than I could ever possibly hope to afford. I don't need to go to a show to get a knife or to get as many knives as I could possibly want. I have to have a reason to want to go to the show independent of the opportunity to make a purchase.
Maybe focussing on other aspects of what shows can provide that the internet can't is a more effective approach, than examining ways to make sure that all tables are full of knives when the bell rings.
Roger
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I sure miss the good old days (from a collector's standpoint). If you weren't too far before or after a show, you had a chance a maker had a knife on hand he was willing to sell when you called him up out of the blue. Perhaps a WIP. I got a lot of knives that way, and good ones, too. The same went for some purveyors to a degree, since there was always a lag between preparing and mailing out the lists and the phone orders coming in. Sometimes, you got lucky.
Even when you called a maker and got nothing but an envelope full of 4-6's a week later, you could still call him up and get your knife the way you wanted it in 3-12 months.
Now, it seems to be: "Hmmmm. There's a knife in the style I like, but not REALLY what I was wanting, but unless I want to wait 5 years and chance not finding anything even close like this before then, maybe I'd better just buy it and be happy with it." Same logic with a knife available from certain makers. How many people wanting Bowies from a "hot" MS are settling for 4" hunters at the price of a Bowie because it was "available" and within their knife budget?
I see both points, but it just seems to me like the average collector is always having to "settle," rather than buy what he/she really wants. I agree with Roger that there will probably always be more knives that you're willing to buy than money in your pocket, but the point remains that they were not THE knives you were there to buy.
I've been playing hell trying to find a nice, white elephant ivory handled MS-quality bowie available at a price under $2,500, so I finally just bit the bullet and ordered one from a maker whose work I admire and whose waiting time is still somewhat reasonable. Not that I would turn down the chance to acquire another more immediately, but I don't see that happening any time soon.
These days, if you're not at the right time and place at a show, you have to be on a purveyor's website and find such a knife right after it was posted, or it'll be gone as soon as somebody else finds it. I guess knife collecting has become "dog eat dog" like the rest of the world has. Good, bad or in between, it probably isn't going to change any time soon, so wait, pay-pay-pay, or "settle," we must.
Even when you called a maker and got nothing but an envelope full of 4-6's a week later, you could still call him up and get your knife the way you wanted it in 3-12 months.
Now, it seems to be: "Hmmmm. There's a knife in the style I like, but not REALLY what I was wanting, but unless I want to wait 5 years and chance not finding anything even close like this before then, maybe I'd better just buy it and be happy with it." Same logic with a knife available from certain makers. How many people wanting Bowies from a "hot" MS are settling for 4" hunters at the price of a Bowie because it was "available" and within their knife budget?
I see both points, but it just seems to me like the average collector is always having to "settle," rather than buy what he/she really wants. I agree with Roger that there will probably always be more knives that you're willing to buy than money in your pocket, but the point remains that they were not THE knives you were there to buy.
I've been playing hell trying to find a nice, white elephant ivory handled MS-quality bowie available at a price under $2,500, so I finally just bit the bullet and ordered one from a maker whose work I admire and whose waiting time is still somewhat reasonable. Not that I would turn down the chance to acquire another more immediately, but I don't see that happening any time soon.
These days, if you're not at the right time and place at a show, you have to be on a purveyor's website and find such a knife right after it was posted, or it'll be gone as soon as somebody else finds it. I guess knife collecting has become "dog eat dog" like the rest of the world has. Good, bad or in between, it probably isn't going to change any time soon, so wait, pay-pay-pay, or "settle," we must.
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Hi Tom,
A few observations:
1) As a rule, I don't settle - if the knife isn't one I really want on its own merits, I don't buy.
2) I rarely have to settle, because I find myself spoiled for choice. Rather than not being able to find exactly the right knife, I find there are so many makers out there I would like to have a knife from but don't, because there is only so much frivolous discretionary money to spend.
3) You answered your own question on how to scratch a very specific itch - place an order for the knife you want, by the maker you want at a price you are happy with. The number of MS who could make you that knife, at that price or less, in under two years - not five - is a long one. The list of JS is even longer. I don't view placing and order as having to "bite the bullet" - it's the way I purchase most of my knives.
That said - I remember those envelopes stuffed with 4 x 6 prints - Nordic used to send out a very tempting batch back in the day. I also remember the printed lists with a description of the pieces available. Man, people today who caution against the perils of buying a knife haven't seen and held based on a web photo aren't fmiliar with the leap of faith that came with buying a knife based on two lines of text!
Bought my first fisk that way. 
Roger
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lol Roger, small world it is! I bought my first Fisk after calling Jerry out of the blue, being impressed just by how "folksy" (in a good way) and honest he sounded, and listening to his verbal description of the knife. "Bad Reception Bowie," he called it, and turns out his description -- and name for it -- were spot on.
As I recall the old AZK mailings from Jay Sadow, we bought knives based on a brief description and maybe a single small, photocopied pic. Never once was I disappointed with what I received, from a maker or a purveyor.
I take your point (which is, of course, the right one), but I still stand for my right to instant gratification!
As I recall the old AZK mailings from Jay Sadow, we bought knives based on a brief description and maybe a single small, photocopied pic. Never once was I disappointed with what I received, from a maker or a purveyor.
I take your point (which is, of course, the right one), but I still stand for my right to instant gratification!
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For me what works is attending shows where I like the location and the show has something more to offer than a sales room. Having good demos is a big plus. Being able to tie a vacation into a show really makes it a much more enjoyable experience for me. That way if I'm not able to find anything I want, I don't feel like I've wasted money traveling to the show.
I agree that it sucks making the trip only to find out that a lot of the pieces/makers I'm interested in have sold before the show even opened. I do understand that's the way the world works - but that doesn't mean I have to like it, or pay for it. Consequently I choose to attend shows that are less likely to have those issues.
All that said, I haven't been able to attend any shows this year and I really do miss it.
I agree that it sucks making the trip only to find out that a lot of the pieces/makers I'm interested in have sold before the show even opened. I do understand that's the way the world works - but that doesn't mean I have to like it, or pay for it. Consequently I choose to attend shows that are less likely to have those issues.
All that said, I haven't been able to attend any shows this year and I really do miss it.
Les Robertson
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Hi 2Knife:
The phrase "Perception is reality" comes to mind.
Sold out and/or a long wait list is a double edge sword (no pun intended) that most makers understand.
Most collectors have a second choice, and a third and 4th, etc.
Most of the very hottest internet makers build 40 knives or less a year. Now for someone like Wolf Loerchner that is understandable. A tactical folder maker...not so much.
If that is all they have time to make that is all the time they have. Those knives will always be in demand....MAKER DIRECT. However the aftermarket is a different story.
What happens if you can't get maker number 1...you adjust your sights and go after maker number 2, etc.
Or you find the next hot maker and get in early. Then you become one of those people that all the others who want one of that makers knives...a collector with a long term relationship with the maker...who can get a knife!
Given the amount of knives available (a plus for the Internet) you can probably find the knife you are looking for....unless you have to have it right now!
What has happened in the past and will continue to happen is the hot maker cannot fill all the orders they take (Most makers hate to turn away business...no matter how long their delivery time is).
People get tired of waiting...or more likely the "trend" has passed and collectors move to the next maker or the next trend.
The phrase "Perception is reality" comes to mind.
Sold out and/or a long wait list is a double edge sword (no pun intended) that most makers understand.
Most collectors have a second choice, and a third and 4th, etc.
Most of the very hottest internet makers build 40 knives or less a year. Now for someone like Wolf Loerchner that is understandable. A tactical folder maker...not so much.
If that is all they have time to make that is all the time they have. Those knives will always be in demand....MAKER DIRECT. However the aftermarket is a different story.
What happens if you can't get maker number 1...you adjust your sights and go after maker number 2, etc.
Or you find the next hot maker and get in early. Then you become one of those people that all the others who want one of that makers knives...a collector with a long term relationship with the maker...who can get a knife!
Given the amount of knives available (a plus for the Internet) you can probably find the knife you are looking for....unless you have to have it right now!
What has happened in the past and will continue to happen is the hot maker cannot fill all the orders they take (Most makers hate to turn away business...no matter how long their delivery time is).
People get tired of waiting...or more likely the "trend" has passed and collectors move to the next maker or the next trend.
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Some years I attend many shows and other years maybe one or two CKG shows. Most of the time I find knives I can enjoy for many years. Sometimes at a show I even get a knife from an "in demand" maker or catch the just prior to their rise to "fame".
2007 CKG which does have Friends of the Guild membership ($20) and also I am an Honorary Member (not paid but designated) and does an evening get together that is lightly but nicely attended. A couple purchased that evening from Brian Lyttle
from a US show in Michigan from makers
from a dealer
from makers at the Montana Knifemakers Guild show
2007 CKG which does have Friends of the Guild membership ($20) and also I am an Honorary Member (not paid but designated) and does an evening get together that is lightly but nicely attended. A couple purchased that evening from Brian Lyttle
from a US show in Michigan from makers
from a dealer
from makers at the Montana Knifemakers Guild show
Les Robertson
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Hi Murray,
I bought my first Bob Crowder knife in 1989! He built a great knife then and still does now.
He is exactly the type of maker I am talking about. Just because you never heard of him...doesn't mean is doing excellent work.
BTW, is that Damascus, guard less piece a Casteel?
I bought my first Bob Crowder knife in 1989! He built a great knife then and still does now.
He is exactly the type of maker I am talking about. Just because you never heard of him...doesn't mean is doing excellent work.
BTW, is that Damascus, guard less piece a Casteel?
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to continue showing what can be obtained from makers etc at knife shows
CKG -- end of show
2008 Blade show
prior to the show from an engraver while having breakfast with him and a dealer who was delivering a knife to me
as I recall this one on Friday
this one Sunday morning around 11 am
these I believe late Sunday afternoon
Guild show
Friday or Saturday just don't recall
Sat and Sunday
Sunday if I recall
AG Russell show first day I believe
CKG -- end of show
2008 Blade show
prior to the show from an engraver while having breakfast with him and a dealer who was delivering a knife to me
as I recall this one on Friday
this one Sunday morning around 11 am
these I believe late Sunday afternoon
Guild show
Friday or Saturday just don't recall
Sat and Sunday
Sunday if I recall
AG Russell show first day I believe
Les Robertson
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Hey Murray,
Well now you are just showing off!
Well now you are just showing off!
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so far I think there have been 17 knives posted and I have all but one still in our collection.
2009 we stayed home after the crash but 2010 did see us go to Blade once again.
many know how I spend much of my time at a knife show and the many hours spent after the show in the hotel room and these images can be seen by clicking on the CKCA logo and going to the Forums and then navigating to Knife Show Photo Gallery and then to Murray White Show Photos.
While roaming the Blade show on day one and taking many photos, I finally came to a makers table who had actually put an image and info about one of these knives right here is Bladeforums so everyone had access to it at the show.
Both of these were purchased at the same time.
and then late Sunday afternoon this piece was purchased from the same maker
did many other collectors have an equal opportunity to purchase anyone or all of these knives? Of course. Why they did not is unknown by me and not of concern. The knives we purchased are knives we like and of the bunch all remain on display except for one.
I have gone to shows and not purchased any knives. Just have not seen what I fancied. Many shows I have seen knives that I missed or just could not afford or did not wish to afford.
Do I enjoy every show I attend. Undoubtedly!! They shows are always too short as are the hours as I have to generally be dragged from a show.
Over 30 years of collecting we have attended shows in Canada, all over the US from one coast to the other and from one border to the other and likely will continue to do so. Sometimes we will buy knives and never be disappointed one way or the other. Don't be discouraged by knives gone but be thrilled that there are many knives to purchase.
2009 we stayed home after the crash but 2010 did see us go to Blade once again.
many know how I spend much of my time at a knife show and the many hours spent after the show in the hotel room and these images can be seen by clicking on the CKCA logo and going to the Forums and then navigating to Knife Show Photo Gallery and then to Murray White Show Photos.
While roaming the Blade show on day one and taking many photos, I finally came to a makers table who had actually put an image and info about one of these knives right here is Bladeforums so everyone had access to it at the show.
Both of these were purchased at the same time.
and then late Sunday afternoon this piece was purchased from the same maker
did many other collectors have an equal opportunity to purchase anyone or all of these knives? Of course. Why they did not is unknown by me and not of concern. The knives we purchased are knives we like and of the bunch all remain on display except for one.
I have gone to shows and not purchased any knives. Just have not seen what I fancied. Many shows I have seen knives that I missed or just could not afford or did not wish to afford.
Do I enjoy every show I attend. Undoubtedly!! They shows are always too short as are the hours as I have to generally be dragged from a show.
Over 30 years of collecting we have attended shows in Canada, all over the US from one coast to the other and from one border to the other and likely will continue to do so. Sometimes we will buy knives and never be disappointed one way or the other. Don't be discouraged by knives gone but be thrilled that there are many knives to purchase.
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Les, the Persian damascus piece with the Water Buffalo horn handle is made by Mike Sakmar who I don't think is making anymore but you would know better than I. He was another outstanding maker who few knew of. At the time of my purchase of the little hunter from Bob Crowder, we had made an arrangement for me to be a benefactor to him and he made me some knives in exchange. I still have one which is supposed to be in the mail as I write and I have posted one other in the past. I'll post all when the new one arrives and I get to photograph it. Heck, Les, half the fun for me is to do the photographs of the knives and share them with others. Often at CKG shows I will also do displays and many times do different displays for each day of their show. As I sit typing this, I can swivel my chair and see 60 knives on displays available for visual or tactile enjoyment.