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Knife Show Question
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Kohai999
Second Degree Cutter
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Just out of curiousity, how many shows do you go to on average, per year?
Which shows are they?
Best Regards,
STeven Garsson
black mamba
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I've never been in the military, but I taught in public schools for 10 years, so pretty much the same thing. 
The phrase, "Adapt and overcome," popped into my mind when reading this thread, particularly Les and STeven's comments. If the shows don't conform to your exact vision of perfection, you can either take your ball and go home, or observe, learn and prevail in the end.
I went to BLADE for the first time this year and had a blast. Met a lot of great people (both makers and forumites), saw a ton of great knives, and learned plenty. Did I find exactly what I was looking for? No, but I ordered it (from Dave Lisch) and it should be ready in about another month. I got on John White's list, bought a beautiful John Howser stag damascus lockback, took a lot of photos and developed a lot of great memories.
The glass is either half full or half empty. Half full tastes a lot better!
The phrase, "Adapt and overcome," popped into my mind when reading this thread, particularly Les and STeven's comments. If the shows don't conform to your exact vision of perfection, you can either take your ball and go home, or observe, learn and prevail in the end.
I went to BLADE for the first time this year and had a blast. Met a lot of great people (both makers and forumites), saw a ton of great knives, and learned plenty. Did I find exactly what I was looking for? No, but I ordered it (from Dave Lisch) and it should be ready in about another month. I got on John White's list, bought a beautiful John Howser stag damascus lockback, took a lot of photos and developed a lot of great memories.
The glass is either half full or half empty. Half full tastes a lot better!
I could not imagine anything more lifeless than a knife collection built up purely from Internet purchases.
It is the years of face-to-face interaction between makers, dealers, collectors and embellishers which gives a collection its soul.
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Knife Shows are VERY IMPORTANT to the advancement of custom knives and to the positive preservation and growth of the custom knife community.
Notice I didn’t qualify my above statement with “IMO” or “I believe” as I always try to do. That’s because the above is not my opinion but a FACT.
Even though the Internet has done wonders in progressing the knives and the community it will never be able to replace Knife Shows as is it can not provide or totally provide very important elements that Knife Shows do.
In attending 5-7 knife shows per year and speaking to hundreds of knife enthusiasts while working the CKCA Booth and from taking the many general and “someone has done me wrong” e-mails from collectors to our CKCA website and forum “contact us” functions, I’m able to somewhat keep a finger on the pulse of knife shows. And as a result, I’m starting to worry more and more about their future and what this could mean to custom knives.
Unfortunately, it’s not just the poor economy (as economies turn around), but also the popular opinion that everything a collector or maker needs is available from the Internet and a growing negative opinion of knife shows in general brought on by practices discussed here in this thread.
In my opinion, Knife Shows in many respects is what it's all about, however they will only survive as long as collectors/buyers attend and purchase knives.
Notice I didn’t qualify my above statement with “IMO” or “I believe” as I always try to do. That’s because the above is not my opinion but a FACT.
Even though the Internet has done wonders in progressing the knives and the community it will never be able to replace Knife Shows as is it can not provide or totally provide very important elements that Knife Shows do.
In attending 5-7 knife shows per year and speaking to hundreds of knife enthusiasts while working the CKCA Booth and from taking the many general and “someone has done me wrong” e-mails from collectors to our CKCA website and forum “contact us” functions, I’m able to somewhat keep a finger on the pulse of knife shows. And as a result, I’m starting to worry more and more about their future and what this could mean to custom knives.
Unfortunately, it’s not just the poor economy (as economies turn around), but also the popular opinion that everything a collector or maker needs is available from the Internet and a growing negative opinion of knife shows in general brought on by practices discussed here in this thread.
In my opinion, Knife Shows in many respects is what it's all about, however they will only survive as long as collectors/buyers attend and purchase knives.
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Les Robertson
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Hey Kevin,
1) If that is a FACT...whose fact? Where did you get that Factoid from?
2) If that is a FACT...why were the Expo and Chicago show so poorly attended by collectors/buyers?
I agree that Shows are very important to the advancement of custom knives. I think perhaps the biggest issue is that there are so many shows.
If you 5 Shows and there are 5,000 collectors that attend those shows...
Now make it 50 shows and there are the same 5,000 collectors...hell make it 10,000.
Because there are so many shows...they have hit the point of diminishing returns.
Knife shows seem to gravitating towards being more specialize.
Chicago show...High End knives...Big dollar Makers/Collectors/Dealers.
USN Show...more tactical...big name makers with drawings
Expo...All Forged, wide selection of makers...however it will generally only appeal to those who collect or have an interest in forged blades. If you like tactical why would you go to the Expo when two weeks later you could go to Vegas for the USN show?
If you like forged blades, why would you go to Chicago? Probably just go to the Expo...especially if you are flying.
If like stock removal from good makers who won't be charging top dollar and there won't be 30 dealers there...maybe you pass on Chicago and go to the Guild Show?
You get the idea.
For those of us who have been at it for awhile, have the means to travel to shows (perhaps because we make it a priority), have developed friendships...the shows become something we look forward to...and can't imagine not going to.
If you are active on the forums, have made relationships over the internet and buy the knives that are the favorites on a particular forum...maybe you just don't need to go to many shows.
Im going to the Guild show this weekend primarily to see friends and look at some knives. I will have nothing to sell. Im taking delivery of one knife (which will be shipped to me as I am not checking a bag).
Im staying across the river in Indiana as the hotel is less than half of what the hotel is charging where the show is held. The hotel is 6 minutes away by car. And they offer a shuttle to and from the Airport.
Gives me more money to spend on knives.
Since I won't be there Thursday night...I'll miss out on all the good knives being shown as part of the "Pre-Show" Preview and Sale prior to the show opening on Friday. I won't get to the show till about 1PM....I expect nothing but empty tables and sold signs as Im sure all the good stuff will be gone!
(that was for you Pete). Yet I am still going!
I'll try to take note of how many tables and who is sold out early on Friday.
1) If that is a FACT...whose fact? Where did you get that Factoid from?
2) If that is a FACT...why were the Expo and Chicago show so poorly attended by collectors/buyers?
I agree that Shows are very important to the advancement of custom knives. I think perhaps the biggest issue is that there are so many shows.
If you 5 Shows and there are 5,000 collectors that attend those shows...
Now make it 50 shows and there are the same 5,000 collectors...hell make it 10,000.
Because there are so many shows...they have hit the point of diminishing returns.
Knife shows seem to gravitating towards being more specialize.
Chicago show...High End knives...Big dollar Makers/Collectors/Dealers.
USN Show...more tactical...big name makers with drawings
Expo...All Forged, wide selection of makers...however it will generally only appeal to those who collect or have an interest in forged blades. If you like tactical why would you go to the Expo when two weeks later you could go to Vegas for the USN show?
If you like forged blades, why would you go to Chicago? Probably just go to the Expo...especially if you are flying.
If like stock removal from good makers who won't be charging top dollar and there won't be 30 dealers there...maybe you pass on Chicago and go to the Guild Show?
You get the idea.
For those of us who have been at it for awhile, have the means to travel to shows (perhaps because we make it a priority), have developed friendships...the shows become something we look forward to...and can't imagine not going to.
If you are active on the forums, have made relationships over the internet and buy the knives that are the favorites on a particular forum...maybe you just don't need to go to many shows.
Im going to the Guild show this weekend primarily to see friends and look at some knives. I will have nothing to sell. Im taking delivery of one knife (which will be shipped to me as I am not checking a bag).
Im staying across the river in Indiana as the hotel is less than half of what the hotel is charging where the show is held. The hotel is 6 minutes away by car. And they offer a shuttle to and from the Airport.
Gives me more money to spend on knives.
Since I won't be there Thursday night...I'll miss out on all the good knives being shown as part of the "Pre-Show" Preview and Sale prior to the show opening on Friday. I won't get to the show till about 1PM....I expect nothing but empty tables and sold signs as Im sure all the good stuff will be gone!
(that was for you Pete). Yet I am still going!I'll try to take note of how many tables and who is sold out early on Friday.
Les Robertson
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Hey Dan,
I have been giving people plenty of notice that I was going to be there....so you can't use me as a last minute excuse!
See you next time.
I have been giving people plenty of notice that I was going to be there....so you can't use me as a last minute excuse!
See you next time.
sheathmaker
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Paraphrase: "If that is a fact why were the Expo and Chicago so poorly attended by buyers/collectors?"
Les, why would you, the consummate fact checker, write a statement like that about the Expo? You jump Kevin out about "who's fact", and then make a factual sounding statement in the very next line of your post. I say factual sounding , because I was actually at the Expo both days and I never saw your smiling face once, so I'm wondering, how you know it was poorly attended by collectors/buyers.....for a fact.
If it is because general knowledge of an event is passed from person to person and the story is generally or exactly the same, then a rational person accepts it as fact, then I understand how you might come to your conclusion and make such a statement as though it were fact.
Now apply that same logic to Kevin's statement and I feel sure there is a large enough concensus in favor of that idea to have it qualify as a fact, at least as much as yours.
The balance of your post was/is as usual full of good information and thought, and given that I'm wondering why you must so often start out taking a shot at someone when it does not add anything of worth to your idea and sharing of information and knowledge.
I keep thinking you are much better than that.
Paul
Les, why would you, the consummate fact checker, write a statement like that about the Expo? You jump Kevin out about "who's fact", and then make a factual sounding statement in the very next line of your post. I say factual sounding , because I was actually at the Expo both days and I never saw your smiling face once, so I'm wondering, how you know it was poorly attended by collectors/buyers.....for a fact.
If it is because general knowledge of an event is passed from person to person and the story is generally or exactly the same, then a rational person accepts it as fact, then I understand how you might come to your conclusion and make such a statement as though it were fact.
Now apply that same logic to Kevin's statement and I feel sure there is a large enough concensus in favor of that idea to have it qualify as a fact, at least as much as yours.
The balance of your post was/is as usual full of good information and thought, and given that I'm wondering why you must so often start out taking a shot at someone when it does not add anything of worth to your idea and sharing of information and knowledge.
I keep thinking you are much better than that.
Paul
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Les Robertson
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HI Paul,
I based my statement on information from both makers and collectors that were there.
This is true of both the Expo and The Chicago show.
Just because you are not at a show doesn't mean that the information you get is not accurate.
Others, not just myself who were at both shows posted here on BF that both shows were slow, limited attendance.
Perhaps "limited" attendance is a different number from each persons perspective.
Perhaps Josh could give us the exact number of attendees broken down by paid and guests. Per day would be great.
Paul, I am not calling out either of those two shows in particular...show attendance has been dropping for years at shows across the country.
The Expo was in Reno for several years...the crowd thinned and they (in the correct business move) took the show to San Antonio 18 months later. This year Josh announced there would be no show in 2011...and they were moving the show back to January. Staying in San Antonio but moving the show from August to January. Seemingly to eliminate the "Hot Weather" complaint..but that is only a guess on my part. I suspect that the weather there will be very nice that time of year...unless of course they get really heavy rains or freak snow storm... We got 8" in late January this year.
The Chicago show was in a NW Suburb for years (I think 5). I like the location, was there for 3 years and stopped going as attendance (read SALES) dropped to almost nothing. So Ed made the right business decision and moved the show to Downtown Chicago (one of my favorite places in the world) and traffic was slow...some even wrote in this thread that they wouldn't go to downtown Chicago for anything! So apparently there are some people using that as a reason to attend.
The Guild Show was in Orlando for years...moved around within Orlando for 3-4 years. Attendance dwindled...so the moved to Louisville for the last 2-3 years. They too changed the date from last week of July to mid-September.
Paul, in every case these moves were not made because the show was doing well. To the promoters credit they identified a problem and did what they thought would be best for those setting up at and attending the show.
Do you know why the Blade Show has been at the Cobb Galleria (with a shifting date in June) for 15 years? Because attendance has steadily increased...as such there is no reason to move the show's location or the dates (within a weekend or so).
My point is now and has been...that show attendance has been slowing for at least the last 5 years. For several reasons:
1) The Internet
2) The cost of travel
3) The restrictions when flying
4) 50+ shows across the US
I used the Expo and the Chicago shows as an example for two reasons.
1) Their attendance has dwindled over the last couple of years.
2) They offer a primarily niche group of makers.
The Expo is all forged (Their goal from the outset was to be an exclusively High End MS Maker only show..as we all know that never happened).
The Chicago Show has become a Hybrid, High End primarily stock removal show...Hybrid being Auction and Show.
I don't know if the Hybrid type show hurts or helps the table holders. I think you could get arguments both ways.
Lastly, I was asking Kevin what he based his FACT on. I think you will admit to claim something is a FACT should have something to back that up with.
We all know how much Kevin loves printed material to back up statements...a spread sheet is preferred.
For all I know...he is 100% correct and it is a fact.
Facts can be tricky things, especially in custom knives. As often truth changes....and so do the facts.
Oh Lorien...back at ya!
I based my statement on information from both makers and collectors that were there.
This is true of both the Expo and The Chicago show.
Just because you are not at a show doesn't mean that the information you get is not accurate.
Others, not just myself who were at both shows posted here on BF that both shows were slow, limited attendance.
Perhaps "limited" attendance is a different number from each persons perspective.
Perhaps Josh could give us the exact number of attendees broken down by paid and guests. Per day would be great.
Paul, I am not calling out either of those two shows in particular...show attendance has been dropping for years at shows across the country.
The Expo was in Reno for several years...the crowd thinned and they (in the correct business move) took the show to San Antonio 18 months later. This year Josh announced there would be no show in 2011...and they were moving the show back to January. Staying in San Antonio but moving the show from August to January. Seemingly to eliminate the "Hot Weather" complaint..but that is only a guess on my part. I suspect that the weather there will be very nice that time of year...unless of course they get really heavy rains or freak snow storm...
We got 8" in late January this year.The Chicago show was in a NW Suburb for years (I think 5). I like the location, was there for 3 years and stopped going as attendance (read SALES) dropped to almost nothing. So Ed made the right business decision and moved the show to Downtown Chicago (one of my favorite places in the world) and traffic was slow...some even wrote in this thread that they wouldn't go to downtown Chicago for anything! So apparently there are some people using that as a reason to attend.
The Guild Show was in Orlando for years...moved around within Orlando for 3-4 years. Attendance dwindled...so the moved to Louisville for the last 2-3 years. They too changed the date from last week of July to mid-September.
Paul, in every case these moves were not made because the show was doing well. To the promoters credit they identified a problem and did what they thought would be best for those setting up at and attending the show.
Do you know why the Blade Show has been at the Cobb Galleria (with a shifting date in June) for 15 years? Because attendance has steadily increased...as such there is no reason to move the show's location or the dates (within a weekend or so).
My point is now and has been...that show attendance has been slowing for at least the last 5 years. For several reasons:
1) The Internet
2) The cost of travel
3) The restrictions when flying
4) 50+ shows across the US
I used the Expo and the Chicago shows as an example for two reasons.
1) Their attendance has dwindled over the last couple of years.
2) They offer a primarily niche group of makers.
The Expo is all forged (Their goal from the outset was to be an exclusively High End MS Maker only show..as we all know that never happened).
The Chicago Show has become a Hybrid, High End primarily stock removal show...Hybrid being Auction and Show.
I don't know if the Hybrid type show hurts or helps the table holders. I think you could get arguments both ways.
Lastly, I was asking Kevin what he based his FACT on. I think you will admit to claim something is a FACT should have something to back that up with.
We all know how much Kevin loves printed material to back up statements...a spread sheet is preferred.
For all I know...he is 100% correct and it is a fact.
Facts can be tricky things, especially in custom knives. As often truth changes....and so do the facts.
Oh Lorien...back at ya!
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Les, we certainly agree that there are TOO MANY Knife Shows.
A huge competitor of the traditional knife Show are the small format "Maker" Shows (Jerry Fisk, Josh Smith, Tom Ferry and others). These shows are very successful in spite of the bad economy. Jerry's show even has a waiting list of collectors who want to attend.
These shows will continue to take collectors (mostly collectors who purchase a LOT of knives) aways from the regional and major shows.
A huge competitor of the traditional knife Show are the small format "Maker" Shows (Jerry Fisk, Josh Smith, Tom Ferry and others). These shows are very successful in spite of the bad economy. Jerry's show even has a waiting list of collectors who want to attend.
These shows will continue to take collectors (mostly collectors who purchase a LOT of knives) aways from the regional and major shows.
Les Robertson
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Kevin,
Exactly right about Jerry's and others shows. I don't know if there is any way to calculate how many people pass on other shows to save up for those shows.
Josh's show is 2 months before the Expo and Jerry's show is 2 months after the Expo. Is that enough time for the collectors to "recover" and the makers to create what they want to? I don't know.
Moving the Expo to January may have answered that question.
Exactly right about Jerry's and others shows. I don't know if there is any way to calculate how many people pass on other shows to save up for those shows.
Josh's show is 2 months before the Expo and Jerry's show is 2 months after the Expo. Is that enough time for the collectors to "recover" and the makers to create what they want to? I don't know.
Moving the Expo to January may have answered that question.
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Josh & Tom's shows are ones that I have attended, and really enjoyed - definitely my favorite type of show. As Steven noted - there's more to shows then just buying knives and by providing some excellent truly demonstrations these shows rise above for me.
That said, what really put me off going to Expo the last two years was that it was in San Antonio, in August. I live in Phoenix - I'm not going to visit somewhere just as hot, at the hottest time of the year. Might be a silly reason to most people, but it's absolutely the reason I didn't go in 2009. 2010 was hampered by other issues, but if I had had the time/money, I still would have passed on Expo due to the location/season combination.
I hope to attend some shows next year - and will definitely will have a look at Expo again in 2012, since it's in January.
That said, what really put me off going to Expo the last two years was that it was in San Antonio, in August. I live in Phoenix - I'm not going to visit somewhere just as hot, at the hottest time of the year. Might be a silly reason to most people, but it's absolutely the reason I didn't go in 2009. 2010 was hampered by other issues, but if I had had the time/money, I still would have passed on Expo due to the location/season combination.
I hope to attend some shows next year - and will definitely will have a look at Expo again in 2012, since it's in January.
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The one thing you cannot do over the internet that you can do at a knife show is inspect a knife for balance.
A pretty, eye-catching clunker with bad balance will not bring a decent resell price at a knife show.
Oh yeah, I forgot, you can always resell it -- on the internet.
A pretty, eye-catching clunker with bad balance will not bring a decent resell price at a knife show.
Oh yeah, I forgot, you can always resell it -- on the internet.
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This is true in general terms, and particularly true for newer collectors. But for more experience collectors, it is less of an issue. There's plenty I don't know and there are lots of makers whose work I am not particularly familiar with.
But for makers like Dan Farr, Russ Andrews, Nick Wheeler, Burt Foster, Jason Knight, John White, Bailey Bradshaw, Lin Rhea, Kevin Cashen - just to name a handful - I can make an on-line purchase based on a photo with a VERY high degree of confidence that I know how the knife will feel in hand with zero clunker worry. Why? because I've owned several examples of their work and handled many more examples at prior shows.
No, I'm not saying shows are obsolete. Apart from the social aspect, there is an unequaled educational opportunity in being able to simultaneously examine and compare the work of several makers - not to mention seminars and demonstrations. And it's a great way to "discover" new makers. I'm not fond of that term as it sounds like these good poeple didn't exist until I laid eyes on them, but you know what I mean.
It seems counter-intuitive, but I really do think that focussing on the ability to buy knives as the primary "pull" to bring collectors to the shows is barking up the wrong tree.
Roger
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There are many reasons for makers and for collectors to attend knife shows in addition to selling and buying knives.
IMO, education is a primary reason. I've always believed that if a newer collector goes to one Blade Show and uses his time wisely by examining hundreds of knives by different makers, goes to seminars and spends time conversing with makers and experienced collectors he can not only have one of the most rewarding experiences but also be making one of the best investments he will make during his entire collecting experience.
As far as the more experienced collector, I feel a knife show (especially Blade) is not too unlike attending a trade show for work. It's much about education. You go to keep up on the latest products, to network and make new contacts, to meet new suppliers, to attend seminars and to visit and enjoy time with colleagues.
IMO, education is a primary reason. I've always believed that if a newer collector goes to one Blade Show and uses his time wisely by examining hundreds of knives by different makers, goes to seminars and spends time conversing with makers and experienced collectors he can not only have one of the most rewarding experiences but also be making one of the best investments he will make during his entire collecting experience.
As far as the more experienced collector, I feel a knife show (especially Blade) is not too unlike attending a trade show for work. It's much about education. You go to keep up on the latest products, to network and make new contacts, to meet new suppliers, to attend seminars and to visit and enjoy time with colleagues.
black mamba
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GREAT post, Kevin, 100% on.
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I've been thinking on the "education" aspect of it. While a show can provide a wealth of variety i dont feel i've ever been influenced or "schooled" in what to purchase, by other collectors.( Which is good, in my book.) though Surely the vendors are interested in promoting their wares. Also, i hear the term "advanced collector" being thrown around as if something to aspire to.. I'm not sure what it means.
I think a show allows a customer the opportunity to compare many things, and learn many things. But in the end it should be a decision you make alone, sometimes just instinct. Your first impression should not be ignored, or influenced against- if it's not someone else's taste. I think the perception is a big part. Some people need security, and that's where someone else's opinion matters. But the best way would be to make an unbiased decision, just seeing and handling everything. Talking and investigating comes after the initial interest is sparked. There are some knives that i have never seen any appeal in whatsoever, no matter how popular. And this is how it should be.. Not everyone likes the same things.
Kevin, was your post regarding education targeting the investment?
David
I think a show allows a customer the opportunity to compare many things, and learn many things. But in the end it should be a decision you make alone, sometimes just instinct. Your first impression should not be ignored, or influenced against- if it's not someone else's taste. I think the perception is a big part. Some people need security, and that's where someone else's opinion matters. But the best way would be to make an unbiased decision, just seeing and handling everything. Talking and investigating comes after the initial interest is sparked. There are some knives that i have never seen any appeal in whatsoever, no matter how popular. And this is how it should be.. Not everyone likes the same things.
Kevin, was your post regarding education targeting the investment?
David