knife size

I have no use for a 7" blade. I own a couple and have learned this the hard way. For cutting wood, I would just as soon have a 4" knife and a wood baton. It won't be any slower and will be tons better for small tasks.

There is a HUGE difference between the chopping/slashing capabilities of a 9"+ blade and a 5-8" one of similar stock/design. It's simple leverage and weight/balance. 8" is the bare minimum length were you start to get that sweet, powerful, controllable swing, without having to force the blade. Take that same blade material, an inch longer, and you "magically" pull the balance forward and also get much more speed at the tip from the same swing. This makes 3" saplings fall in 2 or 3 strokes instead of 10 or 15. I'm talking about the difference between a smart snap of the wrist and forearm, making the same cut as a full swing with your whole arm. Which do you think will be more accurate/safe and tire you out less?

Take a regular claw hammer and balance it on the side of your finger, you'll see my point about balance. Would you want to drive nails all day with a hammer that balanced in your palm? Heck no. Nor do I want to chop anything with a knife that balances near or behind the guard.

3/16" thickness is plenty of strength, my big'uns are thicker but I'm pretty sure 3/16" would stand up fine. If the bevel goes all the way up to the spine, you will find that even a 5/16" thick bowie slices surprisingly well. ABS competition cutters built like that glide cleanly through water bottles and apples on a regular basis.

A mid-length knife won't give you the precision that a 4" or less blade does, nowhere close. It's not as easy to carry. It weighs more. It costs more. All with virtually zero increase in performance, in fact they often cut much worse, if ground from thicker stock with a short bevel.

If you want a big knife that will cut like blazes without wearing your shoulder and elbow out, go for 9" or more. I honestly feel you're wasting your money if you try to half-step with a 7" of similar design. If you don't want to invest in a big camp knife, try a $20 machete like others said. The longer but thinner blade will give you a very good idea of the balance and slashing/chopping ability I'm talking about, without breaking the bank. A kukri is a chopping and slashing MONSTER from all reports (I've never owned one), look at the design and it's not hard to see why. You'll notice that many traditional kukris are sold with a small knife to go with them.
 
Hi there GibsonFan how would you compare a $20 machete to a 9" knife?? on pine or other large trees??

sasha
 
The machete will likely take longer and may want to bind up more. Because of the wider, thinner blade. But it will certainly work, people all over the world use machetes for rough work. Just cut a notch and make it progressively wider/deeper. Of course an axe or saw is far better if you really are going to cut down sizeable trees, say 4" or thicker. I would hesitate to baton a machete through a piece of wood across the grain, but I think it would be just fine to baton it to split wood. Use a wooden baton for cripes' sakes, not the back of a hatchet!

On the other hand, if you're mostly clearing brush or grasses, you will love the machete over the big knife. Its thinness, light weight, reach and speed will be a big advantage cutting through flexible stuff like that. Lots of folks leave a rather coarse edge on their machetes, I'm not sure if this is necessary. They can take a shaving edge the same as anything else, assuming it's made of good steel/heat-treated OK. It mainly depends on whether you're willing to touch-up that fine edge each evening (5 minutes' work or less) or would rather just stick it in a stump and forget about it. Either way will work.

As always, this is just my $.02, your mileage may vary, etc. :) There are so many good ways to fulfill your cutting needs, it's really a matter of personal taste and to some extent, budget.
 
last night i were looking at my gear and cleaning up. I find that all i ever use were smaller knifes. I never had to chop anything yet. Damn i need more excitment in my life.

sasha
 
GibsonFan said:
I have no use for a 7" blade. I own a couple and have learned this the hard way. For cutting wood, I would just as soon have a 4" knife and a wood baton. It won't be any slower and will be tons better for small tasks.

There is a HUGE difference between the chopping/slashing capabilities of a 9"+ blade and a 5-8" one of similar stock/design. It's simple leverage and weight/balance. 8" is the bare minimum length were you start to get that sweet, powerful, controllable swing, without having to force the blade. Take that same blade material, an inch longer, and you "magically" pull the balance forward and also get much more speed at the tip from the same swing. This makes 3" saplings fall in 2 or 3 strokes instead of 10 or 15. I'm talking about the difference between a smart snap of the wrist and forearm, making the same cut as a full swing with your whole arm. Which do you think will be more accurate/safe and tire you out less?

A mid-length knife won't give you the precision that a 4" or less blade does, nowhere close. It's not as easy to carry. It weighs more. It costs more. All with virtually zero increase in performance, in fact they often cut much worse, if ground from thicker stock with a short bevel.

If you want a big knife that will cut like blazes without wearing your shoulder and elbow out, go for 9" or more. I honestly feel you're wasting your money if you try to half-step with a 7" of similar design. If you don't want to invest in a big camp knife, try a $20 machete like others said.

. A kukri is a chopping and slashing MONSTER from all reports (I've never owned one), look at the design and it's not hard to see why. You'll notice that many traditional kukris are sold with a small knife to go with them.
Click to expand...

You are one of the few people to mention exactly what I have believed for the last 6 years or so. I use to be a mid size knife fan a long time ago, but when I started treking further away from civilization I started favoring the really small blades and the really big ones and the mid size knives started staying home or in my car.

as for machete you can get a 14 inch tramontina which makes a great blade. I really like that for it's overall size.
 
I have never used large fixed blades, but I really like machetes for chopping work. Yesterday I weighed my cutdown Corona at 15oz, if I remember right. It has about an 18" blade. I do not believe there is anything that weighs less than half again as much that will chop better than this or a similiar tool. YMMV. I am not sure exactly what a 20 oz(guess I better check some specs before I say that.) thick bladed knife does for a person exactly. I went out in the cold a couple weeks ago, walked for hours in the snow, stopped and built a fire, made lunch, and walked back home. If I needed to keep that fire going all night, I would have wanted a saw, or an axe, or a machete, but that 7" knife would have been waaaay down on the list. Different strokes I guess. I think I would rather have a machete and a mora than a large knife that outweighed the both of them.


Edited to add: BK-7 is 12.9oz. BK-9 is 18.25
 
i would rather have a combo of a chopper and a small knife that a single six or seven inch blade, even the bk9 and bk 7 are not the same knife, the 9 is a much heavier knife. as far as game processing you can process a large animal with just about any blade, but three to five inch works well for me. i have skinned with fixed blade knives, axes, folders, machetes, you need something sharp to process a game animal that is about it. if i had a razor blade i could take apart most north american game, so i would not get too caught up in this as a criterion for blade selection. a big chopper-- axe/machete and a mora make a good combo along with a SAK or multitool. to me the seven inch blade is neither fish nor fowl, it is a compromise. since we get to pick our gear then choose what feels best for you. i would get a 12 inch tramontina machete, and a seven inch knife and try them out. you will get down to your personal likes and dislikes pretty quickly.

alex
 
I started at the 7" blades myself. They seemed to be like the best compromise between basic utility and girth to handle light chopping,etc.. I don't find the compromise to be very successful, they just tend to do nothing well instead of several things fairly well. I like having a good 4" blade, a good SAK/multitool, and a longer chopper. I've used a Junglee bolo for a while but just picked up a new Fiskars hatchet that I have high hopes for.

I'd go for the longer blade, 9" or so. I really reccomend finding basic items that work well for you, rather than a 'jack of all trades, master of none' tool.
 
For the last few weeks it seems like the knives are the main topic we all talk about. I noticed a pattern to all of it. There is no one knife or even a group of knives we would all agree on. Now the funny thing Every one seems to take care of everything with what ever knife is with us at the time. Its either we learn to use what we got. Or we carry what we learned to use in the first place. I find that for me i use mostly smaller knifes like Mora's. I want to find something that i can use to take down a 2"-4" limbs. With my type of the outdoors i dont know if i would ever need it. Still thinking about what would work best for ME. Its realy is great that most of us cant agree on the one knife. Wont it be boring if we did.

Sasha
 
Not pushing anything, just adding some info. This afternoon, just for kicks, I cut a frozen, green, 2 1/2" spruce. I will put in the pics of the two machetes I used just because. Gratuitous, I guess.:D The 12" Ontario required 25 strokes, if I had been a little more precise I could have used a few less. The Corona required 19, and once again, a little more precision would have required a few less. The Ontario weighs 1 oz more. Both are considerably longer than a 9" knife though.:)



 
I can't be bothered with in between lengths. Basically once you've solved the 90th Percentile which is knives of 6" blades or shorter (90% of all used knives) everything else becomes special purpose. So for me, I jump from a 5.5" Custom Survival knife right to a 13" Mach~Axe. Now others do find those middle blades useful for specialized tasks so it really depends on what you end up doing.For me, I wanted a general purpose combination machete and axe. I stick with a formula we came up with. For serious 'swinger-choppers' make the blade length at least equal to the distance between your elbow and the center of your palm. For me that's 13". Anything shorter than 11" and I'm struggling to gain momentum on the strike.Anything longer needs to be proportionately lighter which means thinner bladed.
My Fav is No. 5 in this lineup
MACH_1.jpg
 
Gday there Any Cal. I been looking at the machete too. I just got one which is 11" long. I havent tried it yet but maybe next weekend. The more i look at it the more it looks as the best Tool for ME. I guess also watching all the discovery shows. The native people build houses to boats to everything else. Not becuse its the best there is. They know how to use the machete and even clean fish and game with them too. Its all the got and they learned how to use it well.

Sasha
 
sasha, make sure that you work the edge over on your machete. If not before you use it, then after you have decided it is junk and all a hoax. I don't have the link, but there is a hossom.com link on putting a convex edge on a machete. It makes a lot of difference, esp. compared to a non-existent factory edge.
 
Thanks Any Cal, thats a good heads up.

Moodino what brand and model Machete is the #5 The #1 also looks nice. I would think the front heavy model should be better for choping.

Sasha
 
I have never seen a professional use a big knife in the northern half of the USA. By pro, I mean a forest ranger, logger, guide or native type person. People who spend their lives walking in the woods. All seem to carry at the largest a 5 inch or so stout blade, and either a bird and trout style fixed or s smaller pocket knife. They also carry a small hatcher or more likely a small zip saw or folding japanese pattern saw. When one gets to the more southern locations where weedy, viney plants may be faced, then a machete seems to be the swap out for the hatchet or the small saw.

Most of my current exposure is in the north, from Michigan's UP west to Idaho and as far north as the NWT or alaska. The guides we meet, the indigenous we meet, all seem to be quite happy with the above combo's'

A good sharp small saw will fly thru softwoods, and most green hardwoods, Do it more efficiently and safer too.

I think if they were as useful as the marketers would have us believe, every one would have one up in the north woods.

In the southern climes, they may have some usefulness, but it would seem the local choices of a machete, a modest stout knife and perhaps a small paring knive type, would be more practical,
 
Sasha
Nos. 3,4 & 5 are my design for Ranger Knives. I dubbed them the Mach~Axe. No5 is the final version. You can order one from Justin at Ranger Knives. No1 is the famed Martindale Golok. The dynamic and behavior of the two blades is quite different. The Golok is a great chopper. do you see a Khuri kiding in the blade profile? I do. Like a Khuri, it pushes energy from the stroke forwards then suddenly inwards towards the handle side. This makes the M.Golok a better harvester of small limbs. My Mach~Axe is designed to be a better all around blade, with the energy falling more evenly along the edge. This gives it the 'butchering' advantage and the 'machete' advantage over the Golok. I also wanted a blade that would perform well on a Butcher block. This is it. It's derived from a cross between a Parang, Cleaver, Bolo and Golok!
Here it is in action on a Rabbit, an apple and an onion
Lapin2.jpg

No action shots on wood yet as I have some filming production delays. Soon though!


sasha said:
Thanks Any Cal, thats a good heads up.

Moodino what brand and model Machete is the #5 The #1 also looks nice. I would think the front heavy model should be better for choping.

Sasha
Click to expand...
 
Excellent post. Basically what I hear you say is:
There's a gap between market pereception of a tool useful for an unforseen need and the tools actually used by practitioners in real world contexts.
This principle permeates our modern society and creates huge markets for stuff that never gets used- only collected. That's fine too, as long as you realise that there is a difference between using and collecting!
Great points on the saw...
ProZig.jpg





Guntotin_fool said:
I have never seen a professional use a big knife in the northern half of the USA. By pro, I mean a forest ranger, logger, guide or native type person. People who spend their lives walking in the woods. All seem to carry at the largest a 5 inch or so stout blade, and either a bird and trout style fixed or s smaller pocket knife. They also carry a small hatcher or more likely a small zip saw or folding japanese pattern saw. When one gets to the more southern locations where weedy, viney plants may be faced, then a machete seems to be the swap out for the hatchet or the small saw.

Most of my current exposure is in the north, from Michigan's UP west to Idaho and as far north as the NWT or alaska. The guides we meet, the indigenous we meet, all seem to be quite happy with the above combo's'

A good sharp small saw will fly thru softwoods, and most green hardwoods, Do it more efficiently and safer too.

I think if they were as useful as the marketers would have us believe, every one would have one up in the north woods.

In the southern climes, they may have some usefulness, but it would seem the local choices of a machete, a modest stout knife and perhaps a small paring knive type, would be more practical,
Click to expand...
 
sasha said:
Im thinking about the large knives. It seems that most people carry a 7" blade knife. With some that like a 9" blade. Im trying to explain my Q. Would a 7" be enough for most things or is there a real benefit to carry a 9". How thick is thick enough. From holding some knifes in my hand i feel that 3\16 is very thick with 1\4 is just too much. .....
Sasha
Click to expand...

I'll bet 4"-5" is more the norm for fixed blades. You see a lot of chatter about big knives on the forums, but that isn't an accurate picture of what people really take to the woods with. As you found, the 1/4" thick knives didn't fit for you and you need to keep in mind that a knife is a tool, no different than a screwdriver or a hammer. If you can't use a tool comfortably to complete the task, it isn't serving it's function well.

List what you want to accomplish with the knife. Here's my list for a trail knife with an eye to survival preparedness:

Hiking and camping:
Cooking and eating
Grooming
Repairs
Minor wood-working-- like cutting a spare tent peg or a marshmallow stick

Survival:
All the above, plus:
Cleaning small game
Making other tools-- snares and traps, frog spears, etc
Shelter building
Cutting firewood
Self defense

The hiking and camping tasks can be done with a medium sized Swiss Army knife, a multi-tool, or just about any folder or fixed blade that is 2"-3". A common paring knife could do most of it. Scissors are nice to have.

On the survival side, some go a little "Rambo" and I don't think it is really neccessary. A fixed blade will be stronger, so I would lean that way. I wouldn't feel too vulnerable with a good folder like a Benchmade Griptilian. IMHO, it comes down to the heavier tasks you will attempt with a knife: cutting wood for shelter and fire. Cleaning small game and making traps and snares can all be done better with smaller knives.

As far as self defense goes, it is my smallest concern with survival gear and any sharp pointed tool is going to have self defense qualities. If that is really a concern, training and knife selection aimed to the training are really indicated and it falls outside what I would consider to be normal civilian survival techniques. For example, a downed military pilot has some other things to worry about. A good sharp pole is probably more use for defense against wild animals than a knife is-- you want to make them go away, to make yourself too much hassle for the potential meal.

Most survival shelter building techniques use small diameter tree branches and saplings to make lean-to's. There are a few ways to gather small branches: break them off; make a partial cut or series of partial cuts and snap them branch off; chop the branch if you have a tool appropriate to the task; baton a knife blade through the wood, or baton wedges out of the wood until it can be broken off or is cut through; saw the branches off.

It is much the same for firewood. The ability to split wood with a knife blade and baton (stick), is probably the most extreme use I would put a knife through. This is where I want a thicker knife. A longer blade will allow you to split larger diameter stuff, but you do get to a point where there are losing returns: bigger wood may not be as dry, has more large knots that will prevent splitting-- and possibly trap your blade, which is a place you don't want to be. I use 1/2 the length of the knife blade as a general rule of thumb for the maximum diameter I should be splitting. You might get lucky and find some wood species that split easily and/or good dry stuff that "pops" nice. Muphy's Law says no. You can make a decent fire with smaller wood, much of which can be gathered from the ground, or dead branches that can be broken off. Larger branches and small logs can be fed into a fire as they burn and save the effort of trying to cut them to more traditional sized firewood. If you are trying to survive, no one will grade you on neatness. To get a fire started, you hardly need a knife to cut the wood at all-- it can all be broken off by hand. A knife is probably more use for making fuzz sticks and other tinder and a large knife is not the preferred tool there: any ordinary knife can do that. A box cutter could do it well!

IMHO, the only need to split larger stuff would be to get a flat surface to use with a bow drill. Knowing how to start a fire with a bow drill is a wonderful skill to have, but I put it on the bottom of my list of fire starting techniques. If I need a fire that bad, I'm probably wet and near hypothermic and I'm not going to have the time and energy to craft all the things needed. If I have an injured arm or limited mobility, forget it- matches, lighters, and firesteels are better plans for fire starting.

So what do you need a knife larger than say, 4" for? Nothing. Put the weight and expense into other items that will insure your survival.

Here's my breakdown of tasks per tool:

Grooming: Swiss Army Classic or any with scissors
Repairs: SAK Classic or medium SAK
Cooking and eating: medium SAK or 2"-3" folder or fixed blade
Minor wood-working: medium SAK or 2"-3" folder or fixed blade

Cleaning small game: medium SAK or 2"-3" folder or fixed blade
Making other tools-- snares and traps, frog spears, etc: medium SAK or 2"-3" folder or fixed blade
Shelter building: 4"-5" 3/16" thick fixed blade, hatchet, machete, folding saw
Cutting firewood: 4"-5" 3/16" thick fixed blade, hatchet, machete, folding saw
Self defense: Ka-Bars are what-- 7"? --- so let's use that; hatchet, machete, Cold Steel Bushman, etc

So where are we? We need scissors for grooming and small repairs to clothing and gear. Medium SAK's cover most functions up to shelter building, firewood, and self defense. A folding saw is lighter by about a pound and probably 10% of the cost of a big knife. IMHO, unless trained and there's some compelling reason, a 3"-4" fixed blade is good enough to cover the self defense issues.

So my conclusion is that a small SAK, a 3"-4" fixed blade, and a saw will server you better than a 7"-9" heavy (3/16"-1/4" thick) knife, at less weight and cost.

Big knives are a fun and interesting part of the knife community. If you can afford to buy them and afford the weight to haul them, have a ball. BUT, the idea that you are only safe and well equipped for survival unless you have a big heavy knife just doesn't add up.
 
Gday DaleW half way reading your post. I just had to walk away and laugh to my self. It is true what you say i got the same problem. Maybe one reason i dont realy own any large knives. Well i do have a very old Edge Mark 488. Its a 6" blade and fits me well. When ever i do go places i always end up using only my Mora. From all the reading on the forum i can see a reason to own a larger knife. So here im looking for something that works for me. Cause i dont use it much i want to keep the weight down. But i do agree with you Dale 100%. If not the net i would never would have known that i need a Larger blade. And like RunningBoar i also use simple cheaper knives. They never failed me yet i just know what i can do with them.

Moodino that does look like a great blade. How thick is it?? what steal do you use for it?? how much is it??

Sasha
 
DaleW said:
I'll bet 4"-5" is more the norm for fixed blades...
Big knives are a fun and interesting part of the knife community. If you can afford to buy them and afford the weight to haul them, have a ball. BUT, the idea that you are only safe and well equipped for survival unless you have a big heavy knife just doesn't add up.
Click to expand...

Agreed. I'll never argue with guys who prefer a small fixed blade in conjunction with a folding saw and/or hatchet, because that combo simply works. In fact, that's what I carry sometimes. And I feel very well-prepared that way.

Nor will I deny the usefullness of a machete, you can't argue with pics like Modino posted. Thier length/speed/thin profile goes a long way. Add in the weight and cost considerations and you have a very compelling choice. As others said, take a few minutes and put a real edge on it. I'm just not crazy about actually carrying machetes, though. I like my main blade to be on my hip in ready reach and I find this uncomfortable with that long of a blade.

I just plain like big knives. You may have heard the phrase "The bigger the knife, the bigger the fool"? Well, maybe. :D I think that comes from guys who show up at deer camp with a Ka-Bar. I sure wouldn't take only my Trailmaster trout fishing. But I know how to use it, and it serves me very well. I would feel just fine lost in the woods with only that one knife. BUT given the choice I would also bring a Mora or 4" drop-point, folding saw, and a good multi-tool. The multi- would likely be used the least, but when you want one you're sure glad to have it. The saw is similar; I don't need it very often, but it does what it does the best. Bang-for-buck it's a heckuva deal.

(DaleW mentioned scissors and grooming: I love this little deal: http://www.bladematrix.tv/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=37488
One stays in my 1st-aid/personal kit. Good for picking splinters and trimming hangnails and cutting bandages and all sorts of things. Cheap, light, small and surprisingly sturdy. Not sexy or cool, but it works. I had to get a second one to stop my woman from "borrowing" mine!)

There are many ways to skin a cat, and you guys have clearly illustrated the best of them. ANY of the knives/combinations you gentlemen suggest, is far and away better than a medium-length knife in my opinion. You could theoretically wrap your mitts around a Mora, hatchet, and folding saw for equal-to or less-than the cost of a new Ka-Bar and have much better tools. I don't use what I use because it's what I have; I have what I have because it's what I've found works best for me.

I think I just spent a long time saying what I already said earlier... ;)

BTW I'm not picking on Ka-Bars. They're quality knives made of darn good steel at a reasonable price.
 
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