knife size

[runningboar]

Someone go to Nepal and tell the entire country they've been wrong for 500 years. No more khukuris!

You buying the ticket???

I believe a kukuri is a fighting knife and it comes with small knives to do everyday chores.

 

[sodak]

It is, but it's main purpose and design was used as a field/utility knife, and it's used by *everyone*, from chopping firewood, all kitchen work, etc. It's very much viewed by that society as a necessary tool.

 

[Moodino]

Big Knife is not really the same as a short Machete.
Well, it depends on your semnantic differentiation of terms.
A machete is indeed a long knife in as much as a cleaver is a square shaped one and a sword a very long one!
The relevant difference is not semantic but practical.This has more to do with specific design features and functionality than the length of the blade. However...
-Machete 'Family' tends to be specifically for harvesting and clearing so they are at least 12" long but typically longer.That's because they are typically going into grasses, vines, bamboo, sugar cane, banana stalks, coconuts etc.
-Knife family is not ideal for clearing but may indeed be adeqate for some harvesting- particularly of fruit. Knives can be up to 13" long such as in the case of a long bowie but in general are 12" or shorter.
The key thing is to focus on how blade size combined with blade geometry result in a specific blade behavior or dynamic. Machetes Family tend to place the weight of the blade towards the front, allowing for strong strikes at the foremost 3"-4" of the blade- these are the golok and parangs.Latin styles allow for sweeping cuts which maximize yield.

The (Outdoor) knife family is not like that at all. The emphasis is on draw cutting and stabbing- and this tends to be reflected in the blade profile.
What I find rather problematic with Knives in the 7"-12" (Khuris excepted) is that they tend to be poorly designed for limbing and chopping. That's because they lack leverage and they are not weight forward enough. In addition, they tend to be unwieldy for close-up crafts.

All this pertains to general uses not specialized uses. Soldiers tend to use thier knives in ways that most outdoor sports people would not. For a soldier, they may have to dig a foxhole, tear appart a crate, kill an enemy and do some impromtu limbing with just one 7" , 8" or 9" blade.
Pitty the Soldier that may be tasked with clearing a 100ftsq of vines with a 9" blade! That's why the 18" machete blade became so indispensible for Jungle Ops.
So I think that makes the point well enough. 7"-12" knives are ideal for soldiers and bear hunters or wild boar hunters. The rest of us only need at most a 6" 'survival' blade and if the vegetation requires it, something 13" or longer for clearing and limbing. Notice I didn't mention chopping. Look- If it's timber of 8" or wider I'm using a saw or a Big Bad axe, no knife, machete or cute little hatchet is going to cut it. Anyone that's had to section a tree with a Big Axe knows what I mean. A two man saw is the bomb for really big timber.
My Mach~Axe is really a modernized Parang. A powerful harvester with fair clearing and limbing abilities that can be pressed into service as a butcher or cleaver as needed. It's not a big knife.

Been watching from the sidelines so far, but now I'm getting confused. I'm seeing high praise for machetes, and disdain for "big knives", often in the same post by the same person.

Ain't a machete a big knife??

What is the general definition of "big knife" being used in this thread that makes it less desireable than a machete?

 

[sodak]

Plus, it looks great, I like the design!

 

[Cobalt]

Woman

And I don't need a big knife to impress her........ I can keep this up all night.:thumbup:

I know you can and swaying attention from your original confrontation is your mastery. You asked for schooling and you got it. I asked for the same and you went off on tangents and decoys. Good tactics to avoid the discussion. But that is good enough.

It was not I who was trying to convince you it was you. I truly believe that if you feel that it works for you then that is all that matters. I need not throw remarks to make it seem like an idiotic decision.

I do like small knives and have many. I just know their limitations since I have used them a lot. I know that the big knives can do for me what the small ones cannot. Truth is, I would prefer a machete to a small knife or even a hatchet, hawk or khukuri to a small knife. The small knife is an accesory in my opinion not a primary tool. Much like a handgun is a backup and not a primary weapon. Since idea. You can use it as such if that is all you have on you, but if you can go prepared it is not what you would choose.

 

[Cobalt]

The (Outdoor) knife family is not like that at all. The emphasis is on draw cutting and stabbing- and this tends to be reflected in the blade profile.
What I find rather problematic with Knives in the 7"-12" (Khuris excepted) is that they tend to be poorly designed for limbing and chopping. That's because they lack leverage and they are not weight forward enough. In addition, they tend to be unwieldy for close-up crafts.

All this pertains to general uses not specialized uses. Soldiers tend to use thier knives in ways that most outdoor sports people would not. For a soldier, they may have to dig a foxhole, tear appart a crate, kill an enemy and do some impromtu limbing with just one 7" , 8" or 9" blade.
Pitty the Soldier that may be tasked with clearing a 100ftsq of vines with a 9" blade! That's why the 18" machete blade became so indispensible for Jungle Ops.
So I think that makes the point well enough. 7"-12" knives are ideal for soldiers and bear hunters or wild boar hunters. The rest of us only need at most a 6" 'survival' blade and if the vegetation requires it, something 13" or longer for clearing and limbing. Notice I didn't mention chopping. Look- If it's timber of 8" or wider I'm using a saw or a Big Bad axe, no knife, machete or cute little hatchet is going to cut it. Anyone that's had to section a tree with a Big Axe knows what I mean. A two man saw is the bomb for really big timber.
My Mach~Axe is really a modernized Parang. A powerful harvester with fair clearing and limbing abilities that can be pressed into service as a butcher or cleaver as needed. It's not a big knife.

Actually, I have found that the long machetes are actually worse in a dense jungle environment since they hang up a lot more. The shorter machetes or parangs are much better.

The big blade with the right balance can be nearly as effective as a short machete in dense jungle and much more usefull on thicker woods. Yes, it is a compromise, but it is a do it all blade much more so than a machete. It may not clear paths as well as a machete and it cannot do fine work a well as a small knife or chop as well as an axe, but it can do them all in a pinch. The others cannot do all in a pinch.

As for what the "rest of us need" well that all depends on everyone else and what they feel is necessary. I would not presume to tell you what you need to do, I don't think you mean to presume what everyone needs to carry.

 

[runningboar]

Cobalt,
What would you like me to say, I like small knives you like large, I think mine are better you think yours are better. I am not trying to convince you of anything, you keep posting about how I am baiting you, I honestly don't know what I am doing.

I said school me, IMO you didn't, I am not trying to school you, frankly I could care less what you think is the best wilderness tool.

Big knives are better for chopping, I agree. Chris

 

[Cobalt]

Cobalt,
What would you like me to say, I like small knives you like large, I think mine are better you think yours are better. I am not trying to convince you of anything, you keep posting about how I am baiting you, I honestly don't know what I am doing.

I said school me, IMO you didn't, I am not trying to school you, frankly I could care less what you think is the best wilderness tool.

Big knives are better for chopping, I agree. Chris

Chris, I only wish small knives were enough. I have a new scraper 4 and have used it for tons of stuff and right now in the city and for general use it serves me well. I know that I could go on dayhikes with it and do well. I just know that more is needed, whether it be a big blade, hatchet, khkukuri or machete.

I did get along several times with small blades. Once I even got along with my Buck 110 for 5 days. The 110 was absolutely worthless after that but it and a Kershaw Ti-ats34 folding hunter did everything during that trip. Had I been gone for longer I would have had issues. I broke the 110 eventually and the KErshaw made it but now opens without warning. I still have that one.

Long trips have tought me to make sure I have solid equipment and something with enough heft to get the job done, but not to much heft.

But my trips were obviously not like yours as you have not needed that and I think that is the point to all this. We can all sit here and argue till we are blue in the face, but the truth is that there is no perfect tool, only, perfect for your current situation and even that is a stretch.

Having had many back country trips for hunting and living in not so nice conditions since very young has shown me what I need. that is my reality and not anyone elses.

I am actually interested in what specific tools people carry whether they be big or small. Brands and why.

 

[sicily02]

Cobalt I think you said it right about the larger knife can do it all, but not all, like the right tools can axe,saw,small knife for food prep or skinning, or the matchete. I think most who read these threads are men not all but most and as men we watch first blood and see the hero with one knife, croc. dundee and his big knife surviving out in the bush killing crocs and snakes, of how about the wwII show with robert mitchum in Heaven knows mr. allison who was on sub that was hit and the survivor in a life raft that floated to a island where he survives with his kabar killing sea turtles and even a jappaniese soldier. As a former marine I can tell you I would not want to carry and did not carry a small hand saw, or an axe or even a machete all at the same time
that would be just to much with all the other things a military person has to carry. I did carry my 7" sog bowie on my belt not my pack or rig that had ammo pouchs and canteens just in case a like mr. alison if I lost or had to drop other gear like pack or combat harness( which I did at one point during the first war with iraq some years ago I was tangled in ememy wire and left my harness so i could keep up with my unit. all I had was what i was wearing rifle knife and small survival kit on my belt, helmet and flack jacket that sucked but I was able to go back after it later on Thank GOD. like you said the knife can do it all. We as guys think more about the what if I had only one knife whether you lost your gear or had to leave it behind having just and axe or saw or small knife just does not feel fight to me. Having the knife
instead is. But here we go every one has there own reasons why they carry what they carry.
Take care Fellow knife lover,
Bryan

 

[Any Cal.]

Just to start this reply off right, to everyone. I enjoy the big knife vs. machete discussions because there is always the opportunity to learn something new. Here are a few thoughts regarding many of the excellent points made here. I keep adding smilies because I hate wading through personal attacks in an interesting thread.

I think that many choices boil down to personal uses, and experience. I personally watch the weight of tools I carry, as I feel that any weight I save can be used for other things. If I can carry an adequate tool that I am proficient with, and save 10 oz for other tools, I will. Some of the large knives I have seen weigh more than my machete, a Mora, and a large sil-nylon poncho. While that same knife probably would outchop a machete, I can not justify carrying it.

The next person coming down the trail may just carry that huge knife, a large plastic tarp, and a Schrade skinning knife, just because those are what is important to him/her.

If a person is attempting to be prepared for anything, and their idea of survival is being lost in the woods for months on end, then they may feel there is no alternative to a large, hefty blade that is supposedly indestructable.

While it is obvious that I am not a fan of large, heavy knives, I can see that there are some things that they could excel at. However, I think it is only fair that when a person recommends a large, heavy tool, they recognize that it typically will only come along at the expense of some other article that it may not be able to adequately replace.

I would be highly surprised if a large heavy knife could outperform a knife/saw combination, or a knife/hatchet combination, but those would be some of the things you give up in order to carry that tool. Once again, we get back to personal circumstances and experience.

And once again ...

 

[Andros]

Sasha
Nos. 3,4 & 5 are my design for Ranger Knives. I dubbed them the Mach~Axe. No5 is the final version. You can order one from Justin at Ranger Knives.

No action shots on wood yet as I have some filming production delays. Soon though!

This is a very interesting blade design. I can't locate any reference to it though on rangerknives' site. Am I missing something here?

 

[Andros]

Someone stated that every professional they know has not needed a large knife. Well, I can tell you that some of the best profesionals carry large blades. In fact "the FRONTIER BLADE" was a large massive 14 inch long 1/4 inch thick blade that we discussed in another thread here just recently. But I guess those frontier trekers 150 years ago did not know what they were doing as they had wallmarts in every town to get supplies didn't they

BULL'S EYE:thumbup:! Darn! I was thinking the same thing!

 

[Andros]

DaleW's post is on the money for sure! I mean, for survival, the top 7 priorities don't even involve a knife for me. I use knives a lot, but not for survival.

What are your top 7 priorities for survival? Where in your list do you place the need for a knife? What type of knife would that be (if we are talking about one knife only)?

 

[runningboar]

Originally Posted by Cobalt
Someone stated that every professional they know has not needed a large knife. Well, I can tell you that some of the best profesionals carry large blades. In fact "the FRONTIER BLADE" was a large massive 14 inch long 1/4 inch thick blade that we discussed in another thread here just recently. But I guess those frontier trekers 150 years ago did not know what they were doing as they had wallmarts in every town to get supplies didn't they

BULL'S EYE:thumbup:! Darn! I was thinking the same thing!

Certainly not wanting to get people fired up again but let's not forget that back in the day when those knives were popular they were a persons secondary weapon. There were lots of indigenous Americans that really enjoyed killing outsiders and the firearms of the day only shot once and were very slow to reload so the knife or the hawk was the second line of defense or offense, and in that situation I think anyone would admit that they would want a knife as large as they could wield.


There is IMO a valid argument both ways, my 4" knife will not chop like a 9" and the 9" will not do fine tasks like my 4" and it comes down to what the individual is more comfortable with. As everyone knows neither one is the best but a combo of the two or more, I enjoy these discussions however they always seem to get personal and I bow out. Chris

 

[Andros]

I think it is you who needs to school the rest of us as it is your side that is always trying to force the issue and initiating threads like this.

if you read my response to Any Cal you will see that I wrote that if you are proficient with your tool that is all that matters regardless of size.

But to answer your question here goes:

In heavy woods my big knife can do anything your little knife can, that is necessary.

My big knife can make short work of building a shelter your little knife cannot.

More cutting edge means longer lasting edge.

In thick bush or brush I can wack my way through and have done so many times, you cannot.

I can use it to dig better if need be.

I can use it to turn over rocks keeping my hands away from possible danger under a rock. Stick will work if available, but don't have to count on it.

fire wood reasons same as shelter

Defense, knives are like teeth and the bigger ones tend to make a better impression on predators 2 legged or 4. Fact, as I have experienced this.

There is much more, but just off the cuff that is it.

Durability is another one. Big thick knives tend to be much more durable than a small knife, obviously. There are notable exceptions to that rule as in the Becker Campanion and certain Busse knives and others in that style, but I consider those small big knives as they are built like a big knife and carry the heft of one.

I have several packs. I have very light day pack in which I carry a big knife and a leatherman plus several other necessary items. When I go extended I take those tools with me an also take along a pocket chain saw and hatchet or khkuri if needed. But if I need to save weight, my big blade always goes.


your turn......

My experience attests the same. My current large knife carry while I am in the outdoors is a 16" custom made bowie out of 5160 spring steel. The blade is over 2" wide, differentially heat treated, with full convex profile. This is a very sharp knife, I mean hair popping sharpness. I will admit that this is not the ideal knife for skinning tasks but, due to its high level of sharpness it can do that too. As for self defence capabilities, I am sure that the late James Bowie would definitely want to have a knife like this even at the Sandbar fight.

I do not advocate the use of one knife only as a jack of all trades but, I do support the notion that a properly made large knife can do the tasks of a much smaller one but it is going to be a very laborious endeavor for the smaller blade to do what a bigger one can. Of course, tool proficiency has a lot to do with the end result.

 

[Andros]

Certainly not wanting to get people fired up again but let's not forget that back in the day when those knives were popular they were a persons secondary weapon. There were lots of indigenous Americans that really enjoyed killing outsiders and the firearms of the day only shot once and were very slow to reload so the knife or the hawk was the second line of defense or offense, and in that situation I think anyone would admit that they would want a knife as large as they could wield.

True. However, in certain cases one may not be allowed to carry a modern gun nowadays in many places of the world. Then, that person's knife should be able to act as a weapon too.

There is IMO a valid argument both ways, my 4" knife will not chop like a 9" and the 9" will not do fine tasks like my 4" and it comes down to what the individual is more comfortable with. As everyone knows neither one is the best but a combo of the two or more, I enjoy these discussions however they always seem to get personal and I bow out. Chris

We are just discussing points of view and hopefully learn a thing or two along the way. I don't think that anyone has the inclination to offend or insult another person.

 

[runningboar]

True. However, in certain cases one may not be allowed to carry a modern gun nowadays in many places of the world. Then, that person's knife should be able to act as a weapon too..

I really am not concerned with anything but my area of the world.

We are just discussing points of view and hopefully learn a thing or two along the way. I don't think that anyone has the inclination to offend or insult another person.

Cobalt's, small penis insinuation wasn't personal or offending. Chris

 

[Moodino]

Ahem. Actually, I was addressing a specific number of contributors to this thread- not the whole world of blade users Again I reiterate the difference between collectors and users. As one poster so astutely pointed out, there seems to be a gap between theoretical fantasy as portrayed in some of these forums and the real world of users that need blades to get thier jobs done. Backyard use isn't really 'use-in-context' any more than photographing a resolution target chart is photography in context.So I don't disagree with your "feel is necessary" characterization. I just want to make clear that it's different from "Is necessary for effective task completion"

As for what the "rest of us need" well that all depends on everyone else and what they feel is necessary. I would not presume to tell you what you need to do, I don't think you mean to presume what everyone needs to carry.

 

[Moodino]

Well, we just had it made and Justin doesn't always feel obliged to post his customs on the site (as he is very busy actually making knives and apparently has some kind of a deadlines to meet) Try Here...
http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showtopic.php?tid/787239/
BTW- The approximate price of Mach~Axe No5 (RKMA-3) is $125-$150 depending on the finish on the blade.

This is a very interesting blade design. I can't locate any reference to it though on rangerknives' site. Am I missing something here?

 

[Moodino]

Q-"What are your top 7 priorities for survival? "

Keeping in mind the language the original poster to this thread used...
"Its for basic outdoors use do to what needs to be done. And using the blade with common sence. If i need to dig i make a diging stick and so on."
I'm going to assume a fair mix of Urban and Rural contexts (given that +80% of us in N.America, live in Urban districts).Now, my answer varies depending on the specific context that my 'client' states.
Here's the list for 80% of us that live in cities and the suburbs...
http://www.imagometrics.com/GoBags/GoBaghome.htm
1- Respiration protection
2- Preservation of consiousness
3- Blood-loss prevention
4- Body temperature stabilization
5- Hydration
6- Communication
7- Nutrition

Q- Where in your list do you place the need for a knife?
My answer is that in the survival scenario for 80% of my life and even for those circumstances that I venture into the outdoors ( which are a lot ) I DO NOT have any knife on the survival list at all. That's my point.actually a pair of EMT shears are more useful for 'survival'. A knife is the least likely tool to aid in my survival in the 21st Century.

100% of my blades are used as task tools. Some are gardening tools, like my machete. Others are general outdoors tools like my SAKs (mostly used for opening boxes,cutting twine and splitting bagettes) and 5" blades -used for general outdoors 'kitchen' chores.

Q-What type of knife would that be (if we are talking about one knife only)
It would be this knife ( still at the maker's...waiting to be shipped)

or a Fallkniven F1 or Mora 2000 or comparable. Look, most 'survival' firewood is branches that can much more easily be broken up by hand and foot than hacked with a blade or hatchet
If we're talking the 1800's the answer is different- obviously. You can't build a log cabin or fight off bears to survive the wilderness for a long period of time with a Mora.

So keeping in mind that the original post never mentioned the word 'survival'- I take it back to the real question- what situation are you likely to be trying to survive with your blade?

What are your top 7 priorities for survival? Where in your list do you place the need for a knife? What type of knife would that be (if we are talking about one knife only)?