Knife steel and the everyday user.

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benthughes

Gold Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2006
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There are questions that keep popping up around here that become mind numbing after a while. Best hard use folder being one that makes me sigh whenever I see it. Best knife for self defense, best tactical fixed blade ect... .

One thing that intrigues me is the discussion on blade steels and how some people think the need the latest greatest steel to have a serviceable knife. There are also a good number of amateur metallurgists who seem to think that the components of one blade steel make it the be all end all of matter separation.

I would say the average user ( myself included) uses their knife to break down the occasional box, open an envelope, cut food on occasion, open packaging ect... Do people need to put so much emphasis on blade steel? Many knife makers love simple carbon steels for their knives. I personally have a SOG trident in AUS8 that works well enough. I use it until it needs a touch up, hit it with a ceramic and go about my day.

I'm a gun guy and I think a perfect parallel would be those guys who discuss the pros and cons of a firearm all day without ever having shot it. The best way to figure out if a gun works is to go out and shoot the piss out of it. When its dirty , clean and lube it. Same with knives. How do you know what you need until you use the piss out of it? When it's dull sharpen it! What am I using it for? Would I get better utility out of a different edge angle?

Rather than rant any more , what do you guys ( and gals) thing about blade steels for the average user? Is it overhyped? Do people make a way bigger deal out of it than it really is? Do you think people realize what they're in for when it comes to sharpening a "super steel" for the average user?

Thanks BF!
 
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What does the average user know about knives? If they can sharpen them (on stones) then they're better than most. For such people 8Cr13MoV is perfectly adequate, AUS8, 440A, maybe even 420J2 *cough*. I've sold a few knives in 7Cr17MoV. Most people don't know much about steels or grinds. Really all they care about is the appearance and the utility value of the knife.
 
I think you make a very good point. Especially when it comes to commenting on steels or various knife models one hasn't even used?

It's always amazes me how some can develop such strong opinions about brands and knife models they haven't even tried.
 
My buddy loves the $5.00 TacOps knives he's been buying off the'Bay. I cringe every time he plops down a handful of knives in front of me but he digs them so I guess that's all that counts. I think the blade steel on these is recycled beer cans.

I used to buy knives ( uhhhh.... still do) based on the qualities that people said made a good knife. I heard D2 was a great all around steel for an outdoors utility knife. I picked up a Knives of Alaska 5" in D2. It was great until I had to sharpen it... ugh! I wasn't ready for that. I'm comfortable touching up a blade. I can sharpen softer steels on a stone but generally use a Lansky sharpener. S30V was an eye opener on the Lansky compared to the kitchen knives I was used to sharpening. Why isn't this getting sharp!

After owning several Busse knives ( Still love Busses...respect!), Swamp Rats, Striders, Hinderer, Benchmade, Reeve my faves are a 3" Puukko, Spyderco Military and a Cold Steel Kukri.

I'm guilty of knife snobbery but I'm figuring out what works for me.
 
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I think for the average user, a plain vanilla blade steel works good enough. 1095, 440C or maybe 400HC, AUS 8. For many years, when I was young, I farmed full time, and relied on a good knife or two, very heavily. I mostly carried a Case 3 bladed Stockman, and a Puma Game Warden folding Hunter, or a Big Ka-Bar 2 bladed folding hunter, Sometimes a Buck 110. I used them so much that a weekly sharpening was usually needed, but they were easy to sharpen with an Arkansas oil stone, and it was no trick to return them to a shaving edge. The Puma Game Warden got used so much that I actually sharpened the blade mostly away in a few years, and I wore out several Buck 110's.

As far as I am concerned I don't really need a better knife steel, but I must admit my favorite is D2, but it takes a diamond hone to get it sharp, mostly. Anymore I often do it the easy way, and take about 10 knives to the gun show and have a guy with a belt sharpener sharpen them, because he puts a wicked edge on everything, and by rotating my knives I make it to the next gun show, before running out of sharp knives. I also have a Benchmade with ATS34 that I like pretty good, but I also have the same Benchmade with D2 and I think maybe the D2 is just a little better.

But to be honest with you, if no other steel was available except the old Case carbon steel, I would be just as happy, in fact, it's still one of my favorite steels, and I wish a lot more of these modern knives offered that steel instead of stainless something or another. A knife rusting has never been an issue with me, anyway.
 
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I think the average knife user will be able to tell the difference between 420J and VG-10, but not between, say, AUS8A and 154CM.

I do think that the topic of blade steel is important, but also overhyped. Sometimes people get so wrapped up in metallurgy that they forget about what's important. I think you make a good, important point and said what needed to be said.

I've got knives that cost several times as much, but my main carry knife today is my Buck 110, and I'm quite happy with it.
 
Dunno if I am an average user, but I prefer easy to resharpen steels like AUS8 or 14C28. I guess the time spent sharpening is the same overall, more often and shorter vs less often and longer.
I don't need crazy edge retention, couple passes wit the Lansky Turnbox at the end of the day and I'm good to go.
This obviously depends a lot on what you use your knife for and your personal preference, so YMMV
 
You're not an average knife user if you've been on this forum for seven years like you are. To go with your gun analogy, an AUS8 built in Taiwan knife is the equivalent of a Taurus. Fine for a lot of budget minded users to be sure, but an unacceptably low performer for others who are not as price sensitive.

I have personally gone through piles of cardboard that would make AUS8 as sharp as a butter knife in short order, and therefore it isn't acceptable for my personal purchases. Do I cut high amounts of cardboard regularly? No, but when I do, I don't want to repeatedly have to "touch up" to get the job done in a personally acceptable amount of time.
 
Well, consider first of all that you're asking this question in a group that's definitely "above average" when it comes to all things sharp. It's certainly a valid question, but asking a group of professionals and highly experienced and dedicated amateurs may skew the answers you get.

If I were speaking for the "average modern user", I'd say Freman is probably pretty much on target. In earlier generations, however, even average users had a better idea of how to use and maintain their tools and what materials made a good tool. My dad and my uncles knew more about knives, even as average users, than most folks today know. They lived with them as important daily tools. They understood what made a good knife, and they knew how to take care of them. Many knife users today have no interest in their knives other than the fact that they're supposed to cut. If they do, fine. If they don't they'll either get them sharpened or get another knife. It seems to me that this kind of user is less interested in the properties of blade steels. They will happily carry and use knives with lower end blade steels as long as they work.

Speaking as a BF member and long time serious knife hobbyist, I know a bit more about blade steels and their characteristics, edge grinds, blade profiles, etc. than the average user. If I were answering the question for myself or for other knife forum members, I'd say we're a bit more aware of the characteristics a particular steel will exhibit during use and maintenance. Whether we need high end super steels to perform our cutting tasks isn't really the question for many of us. We like to try the "latest and greatest" to keep up with what's out there, what's coming up shortly, and what we wish we could find but probably never will.

Then there's the highly knowledgeable and experienced troglodytes like me who know all this stuff about super steels and still like old-school carbon steels and tried-and-true stainless steels just because they work and we know what to expect from them.
 
I think the "best steel" really depends on what a person actually needs to use their knife for. If an individual works a warehouse job and is going to be cutting boxes 8 hours a day, than a high carbide steel like S90 or S110V might be the best option. For the casual user, 8CR or AUS8 might be just fine. Unfortunately, I think a lot of people have this idea in their head that a new steel is some how better than older steels (people who complain that a knife "just has" 154CM piss me off to no end). What makes CPM-154 better than BG-42. I also think that a majority of supersteel knives are never going to cut anything more than paper and simply be safe queens.

Personally, I don't need high vanadium steels like S90V. This summer has been fairly eye-opening experience for me. As nice of an improvement S30V is over 8CR (or even 154CM), I didn't have the toughness that I need in a knife. While it would be cool to own some uberawesome blade in S110V, I would probably have pretty severe chipping issues. I have used carbon steel with no problems, and I would be interested to see how CPM-3V would perform in my work environment.
 
Good point about BF members being smarter than the average bear in terms of all things sharp. I'm in the same boat in that I know what works well for me but I'm also intrigued by the latest and greatest. I'd love to try a knife in 10v or K390 and will probably end up getting one. I wonder how close we are to hitting a plateau in terms of coming up with steels that are still useful as knife blades. Then again, they may have thought the same thing 15 years ago
 
That's a good point. I like my blade steels hard, like m4 and m390, because I cut THICK plastic bands that go around pallets of sheet metal at least 4 times a day at work. I like these steels because they handle it better with way less edge damage. I've tried a lot of steels like 154cm, vg10, bg-42, s30v, 8cr13mov, D2. And the m4 and m390 do the best for THAT job. Otheres do well and otheres suck. But outside of work, yeah i don't care what blade steel I have, as long as its sharp. But i think that a lot of the fun and excitment of collecting comes from wanting to get these new blade steels. I personally love finding out about a steel, then finding a model I like and buy it. Its the chase for the next best thing that keeps me going. Like a s110v native...... drool!!!
 
I think for the "average" non-knife knut user, any modern steel is acceptable, even *gasp* 420J2. :thumbup:
 
benthughes said:
There are questions that keep popping up around here that become mind numbing after a while. Best hard use folder being one that makes me sigh whenever I see it. Best knife for self defense, best tactical fixed blade ect... :jerkit: .

One thing that intrigues me is the discussion on blade steels and how some people think the need the latest greatest steel to have a serviceable knife. There are also a good number of amateur metallurgists who seem to think that the components of one blade steel make it the be all end all of matter separation.

I would say the average user ( myself included) uses their knife to break down the occasional box, open an envelope, cut food on occasion, open packaging ect... Do people need to put so much emphasis on blade steel? Many knife makers love simple carbon steels for their knives. I personally have a SOG trident in AUS8 that works well enough. I use it until it needs a touch up, hit it with a ceramic and go about my day.

I'm a gun guy and I think a perfect parallel would be those guys who discuss the pros and cons of a firearm all day without ever having shot it. The best way to figure out if a gun works is to go out and shoot the piss out of it. When its dirty , clean and lube it. Same with knives. How do you know what you need until you use the piss out of it? When it's dull sharpen it! What am I using it for? Would I get better utility out of a different edge angle?

Rather than rant any more , what do you guys ( and gals) thing about blade steels for the average user? Is it overhyped? Do people make a way bigger deal out of it than it really is? Do you think people realize what they're in for when it comes to sharpening a "super steel" for the average user?

Thanks BF!
Click to expand...


I think that your use of the "jerkit" smiley is a violation of some little known forum rule.


I also think that your interpretation of what members do with their knives is limited to your own knife usage,

...and as such is limited in understanding.


Some members test and use their knives beyond mundane chores;

...and, as such, have experience that proves to them that certain steels work better for specific tasks the others.


Each of us must determine what steels work best for the cutting tasks we tackle.

I like Bob Dozier's D2 on hunting knives.

I like Mike Stewart's A2 and 5160 on the big choppers that take the worst of my abuse.

I like Benchmade's CPM-M4 on folders that need to cut abrasive impregnated tarps and ropes on my job-site.



Maybe I'm not an "Average User", but I always tailor the steel to the task at hand.




Big Mike
 
I think it all comes down to what do you use your knives for, and what kind of edge to you want. I personally use my knives quite heavily, working in retail. I'll probably break down an average of 400 boxes a week so I honestly need a better blade steel because it would be fairly dull by the end of the day otherwise. Also, I'm an edge nazi. I want the absolute finest, most perfect, polished, hair splicing edge I can possibly get on a knife which means certain steels just don't cut it for me. D2 for example, not fine grained enough for me. S35vn, AMAZING. ZDP-189, better! I think though, for the average person who just wants something sharp that can cut, once you get better than VG-10 everything is kinda gravy
 
For myself, the knife design is more important than the blade steel. I do prefer certain steels over others for specific applications, but I have no problem having to sharpen/ maintain a blade (within reason) as I find it is all part of the enjoyment/ obsession of the hobby.

That being said, I am as guilty as anyone of "knife snobbery".
 
Big Mike said:
I think that your use of the "jerkit" smiley is a violation of some little known forum rule.


I also think that your interpretation of what members do with their knives is limited to your own knife usage,

...and as such is limited in understanding.


Some members test and use their knives beyond mundane chores;

...and, as such, have experience that proves to them that certain steels work better for specific tasks the others.


Each of us must determine what steels work best for the cutting tasks we tackle.

I like Bob Dozier's D2 on hunting knives.

I like Mike Stewart's A2 and 5160 on the big choppers that take the worst of my abuse.

I like Benchmade's CPM-M4 on folders that need to cut abrasive impregnated tarps and ropes on my job-site.



Maybe I'm not an "Average User", but I always tailor the steel to the task at hand.




Big Mike
Click to expand...

An I wholeheartedly agree that some members do use their knives for things beyond mundane chores, some beyond what would normally be considered reasonable and that's awesome! My question statement wasn't targeted toward your average BF user who IMO is generally more knowledgable than the layman by merit of even being a member here.

Anyone with experience enough to have a preference in knife steel and who knows what they like for what tasks isn't what this post is about. My understanding is limited to my experience and exactly why I asked the question to begin with. I think some people get to fixated steel without understanding what each one offers through real world experience. You are obviously not the average user.

I guess the idea was for people to read this and have something to think about. A lot of people here do know what they like and why they like it. Some people are just getting into it and may be overwhelmed by the choices of steel out there, often thinking they have a crap knife because it's 440C. I'm not saying anyone is an idiot for having a $500 custom in S110V just as no one is an idiot for liking a knife in AUS8 if that works for them.
 
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There is so many steels out there to choose. Toughness, wear resistance, corrosion resistance, sharpen ability, compression strength, hardness and a combination of them.
Kitchen use>Aogami and shirogami paper steels,AEB-L,CPM 154,S35VN,52100,1084.

Folder>Aus8a-s110v depending on what you are cutting or how often you can get to a stone.

Fixed>small-medium s90v or s110v for stainless and A11 for non stainless would be for general use and abrasive cutting.

Fixed> large chopper S7 for extreme impact or CPM3V is a well rounded steel for large blades.

These are just IMO examples and one could carry on all day on variables
 
Try some of everything if you can, the. See what will work for you. Don't pay attention to what Joe Plumber likes. Have fun.
 
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