Knife steel and the everyday user.

benthughes said:
I guess the idea was for people to read this and have something to think about. A lot of people here do know what they like and why they like it. Some people are just getting into it and may be overwhelmed by the choices of steel out there, often thinking they have a crap knife because it's 440C. I'm not saying anyone is an idiot for having a $500 custom in S110V just as no one is an idiot for liking a knife in AUS8 if that works for them.
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I think you're on to something.

My sense is that there are 4 basic types of knife buyers and 3 basic groups of steels.

In the center are users. They use their knives regularly enough to dull them and they're willing to learn the basics of knife sharpening. This type of buyer is well served by a balanced steel that combines reasonable edge retention, toughness and ease of sharpening. Carbon steel like 1095 does this well as do some stainless steels like 420hc, Sandvik 12c27 and maybe Aus8.

The second group treats knives as either disposable or as a novelty. They aren't going to learn to sharpen and they'll just use a dull knife till they loose or destroy it. For them, cheap stainless is perfect.

The third group is willing to spend money on nice knives but they aren't going to commit to learning to sharpen. For them, a steel that can hold an edge is important, more than ease of sharpening. Super steels are for them, provided they can get some org to sharpen them

The last group are the sharpeners. They commit to getting more than ok at sharpening. They have the tools, skills and ability to put an edge on any steel. They are likely to choose the steel for the job, including super steels.
 
Personally, I think that the 'Average' knife user would read this thread and just shake their head. Collectors of any kind will dissect the hobby and every aspect about it. It doesn't matter if it's knives, guns, watches or (Insert collectable item here). As knife geeks we prattle on for hours or days about steels, blade shapes, lock designs, pivot designs, handle materials and ergos. Not that these things aren't important, but they are certainly more important to us than the vast majority of the population.

I personally believe that your 'Average' knife user chooses a knife that looks and feels good to them, or buys either what friends or salesmen suggest. Pretty much end of story.
 
Well put pinnah.

I've worked with guys, some carry Coast knives because to them it's something they know they'll lose, others carry Frost, dull faster than anything, some are prior service and have a DEEP affinity for their Benchmades.

What I haven't come across at any place I work is another sharpener, for the guys listed above, they think they know sharp, then I give them their blade back at 220 or 400 grit and their eyes light up like Christmas.

I have also not run across guys carrying the latest super steels unless you count S30V (I don't) and those guys are generally prior service, active or guard.

Average users in my experience generally have "crappy" knives with dull blades, chips, broken tips and an extreme appreciation of what sharp is when they see that factory edges aren't the end all be all.

Fun topic.

The jerk it smilie is reserved for W&C.
 
A few of my friend here carry the K/O's and one time we were at the range cutting a couple hundred carboard target boards to the proper configuration. They were kind of surprised that afte a couple dozen cuts their knives were tearing the cardboard. I was using my 20CP para then and I was good until all the boards were done. They were wondering at that too. Oh, and that was after one of them told me that his $3 was as better than my grey para. :)
 
I don't mean to sound like a snob, but sometimes I wish we had a Reserved Discussion Forum for guys like all of you here, who really got into the topic like experts and gentlemen, instead of making me think the thread should go in Whine & Cheese.

This thread alone replaces a hundred rants about steels and maintenance and use by people who never tried them.

Thanks!
 
KrisOK said:
Personally, I think that the 'Average' knife user would read this thread and just shake their head. Collectors of any kind will dissect the hobby and every aspect about it. It doesn't matter if it's knives, guns, watches or (Insert collectable item here). As knife geeks we prattle on for hours or days about steels, blade shapes, lock designs, pivot designs, handle materials and ergos. Not that these things aren't important, but they are certainly more important to us than the vast majority of the population.

I personally believe that your 'Average' knife user chooses a knife that looks and feels good to them, or buys either what friends or salesmen suggest. Pretty much end of story.
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I think that we knife nuts also buy what looks and feels good to us. We just also happen to buy high end or custom blades that look and feel good to us. It just so happens that many of these high end or custom blades use high end or super steels.

I think for some people, steel obsession comes from the prestige factor, or pride of ownership. Just like buying a Rolex vs times, or Mercedes vs Volkswagen.

I think when somebody has a hobby, like collecting anything, they will generally want the finest and/or most unique examples of that thing. This is why we have sprint runs and limited editions and customs offered in various steels.

Sometimes it's not about use, or practicality, sometimes it's about just having the best.
 
I'm not sure which group of knife snobs I belong to, though it's pretty clear that I am one. I don't do a lot of heavy knife usage stuff anymore. These days, I'm an engineer and the most gruesome stuff I get to do is cut open a feed sack for my cows, and trim away some branches drifting into my driveway, though I have annihilated several sheets of paper to pass the time.

Still.

Like a lot of other people on here, I have enough education and experience to appreciate these new super steels. Not having a wife or children, I have a lot of disposable income that I don't mind spending to get something truly excellent. This attitude dates back to the days when I shot competitively. Get the best equipment available and shoot the best you know how. That way, you have nothing to blame but your own technique.

So, I don't buy "crappy" knives. Some I buy because I find the design interesting. The Kershaw Cryo, for example. The blade steel there is nothing to shout about, but it's a fine little knife and I don't mind sharpening it up from time to time. On the other hand, tonight I'm carrying my Zero Tolerance 0560CBCF with the S110V composite blade, which was tough getting sharp to the level I like, but it's amazing, now.

I'm also turning into an edge snob. I have gone through various stones, then a Lansky system, and today I use an Edge Pro Apex. If I find something better, I'll get that later on.

For me, the profileration of excellent steels is a wonderful thing. I'm a hobbyist. I enjoy learning about the characteristics of different things: blade steels, pivot systems, handle materials, edge types, grinds, finishes, you name it. I find it to be fun.

People who are NOT hobbyists could care less, I'm sure, and I'm fine with that. There are a tremendous number of excellent knives on the market today, most of them are below the $50 price point and therefore have what I consider to be "meh" steels. Nevertheless, many of those steels will perform as well or better than anything made forty years ago. As someone else noted earlier, the knife industry has come a long way.
 
I'll be honest...although I have some knives in S30V, VG10, D2, etc., my EDC is a Victorinox SAK, and for hunting season I use a Buck 110in 420HC. I do nothing with my knives that the Vic or the Buck cannot handle with ease. I bought the others after I discovered the forums and started reading about blade steels. I discovered (after wasting quite a few dollars) for me they had no real advantage, so I went back to using the ones I liked most.

An yes, I have no doubt that frequenting forums contributes to people getting caught up in buying things that they read being touted as the newest and the best. I think that's how most so-called "collections" get started. Same is true on the gun forums. Pay attention to the repetitive language in many posts/threads. Someone will write how wonderful their new toy is, and you see the same language repeated ad naseum over and over in thread after thread, in which very few actually provide anything other than a superficial discussion of cosmetics, and use in theory.
 
I was just talking to a coworker about steel choicesand the first thing I told him as he is a gun guy, is its just like asking what's the best rifle caliber...?! Its too open ended a question and for the average guy going to hunt deer in the woods basically anything will work, and for most casualy knife owners almost anything will work and let's be honest thousands of years man has used sharp objects to cut long before super steels and crazy alloys. I don't pound on my blades the vast majority of them I want to slice atoms. I don't mind spending tim sharpening and I hav the equipment to doit, so I'm ok with D2 and s30v and 3v and m4, at te same time especially in the supper a rather inexpensive spyderco cat g10 with 440C gets a ton of my edc time I like the size and weight and it does the trick just dandy.
 
Best rifle caliber is a good analogy... each one has it's place or it wouldn't be around anymore. .22 is great for everyday use and affordable just as 440c would be for most people. Some people like .375 H&H for big game just like some people like Infi because they want to find out what's inside a rock ;) . What's the best carbon steel, tool steel, stainless? Well, what do you wanna use it for?
 
I somewhat care about the steel used in a knife, it is closer to one of the last things I look at but it is still there. I am still learning a lot about blade steels, so for me it is more about what are the characteristics that these steel properties possess compared to what I am used to using. And partly how hard is it to sharpen, and how often will I have to in comparison to what I am used to, and any other special characteristic. Such as how I used to using stainless steel knives and have yet to have a pocket knife rust, if I move to carbon I may have to take precautions against rust and look into how to best do that.

As of right now though 440a is on the bottom of my list as acceptable mainly because it just annoys me with how it doesn't want to perform as well as my Aus 8 and 8cr13mov knives for getting as sharp or in actual use. It's not much of a difference but it is still there, and just knowing that will bug me. So far Aus 8 in my ka-bar dozier is my current favorite as out of the box it was the sharpest knife I have ever handled, that is comparing it everything including knives which I have sharpened myself. Though I need to resharpen it to see if I can get it sharper than that, as I finally dulled it down to the point where I feel it needs it. For me I take a blade steel that can get scary sharp as an EDC that requires frequent sharpening over a knife that dulls down to a decent working edge and holds it forever any day of the week (for EDC, not work).

I want to experiment with other steels more, so more than likely the next knife will have carbon steel, elmax, vg-10, zdp-189, d2, or s30v. I will be honest I can't justify to you why I want to experiment with the other blade steels for no other reason than I want to get a better understanding on what is out there. And honestly quite a few of the posts I have seen concerning blade steels generally seem to be other people who are curious about the characteristics of the steel as well and not so much "I must have a super steel or it's junk" attitude, though thats what I generally run across, other people may have different experiences.
 
benthughes said:
some people like Infi because they want to find out what's inside a rock ;)
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HAH! Best thing I've ever read on BF.

As for blade steels, I wanted the best of the best, so I've got a Benchmade in M390, and a Spyderco in K390. I wanted these steels to show what is truly possible within the realm of sharpened metal.

BUT, when I want to abuse a knife, I reach for my 154CM Benchmades. It's tough, but easy to sharpen.

But of course, this is ignoring my INFI. When I don't wan to sharpen a knife for a while (when I'm in the woods and don't care to drag my stone with me), the TGLB gets pulled out and run ragged. In other words, correct tool for the job.

I EDC an S30V blade at the moment, and through microbeveling I can keep a decent edge on it by kitting the MB for 2 mins on a fine DMT. If I didn't know how to sharpen efficiently, I'd never buy this steel again.
 
hmm, I tend towards carbon steel for shop and outdoors, don't mind the occasional spotting of oxidation. I have some stainless in the home for food prep, but I think that was more the manufacturers need than mine. Isn't this why we all have large selections? so we can carry/use the flavor of the day?
 
Which Spyderco do you have in K390? Is it a mule?

I've got a puukko my dad and I built the handle for. The steel is a fairly soft carbon of some variety. It's easy to sharpen but requires pretty regular touch ups. I often open cans with it without I'll effect. I'm all about different steels for different jobs. I have yet to really push my Infi or Swamp Rat SR101. Light chopping but nothing really weird at this point.
 
Esav Benyamin said:
I don't mean to sound like a snob, but sometimes I wish we had a Reserved Discussion Forum for guys like all of you here, who really got into the topic like experts and gentlemen, instead of making me think the thread should go in Whine & Cheese.

This thread alone replaces a hundred rants about steels and maintenance and use by people who never tried them.

Thanks!
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You've got that wrong - Thank YOU for the job you and the other mods are doing !
 
It's amazing how the average guy who has no idea about knife steels can pick up any knife and cut things with it, sharpen it with a cheap sharpeners, and keep cutting, while BF members cannot manage without a high end steel to slice a frigging tomato, then run to their $100 sharpener to immediately resharpen so they can split a ball hair 5 ways. Seems to me that some folks here overthink the whole thing. I have a CS Finn Bear with 4116 steel and it still has the factory edge after a year of regular utility use. Guess what? It still works! You know when I sharpen a knife? WHEN IT'S DULL! And I could care less if I can split a pube, as I'm pretty sure I'll never need to.
 
benthughes said:
Which Spyderco do you have in K390? Is it a mule?

I've got a puukko my dad and I built the handle for. The steel is a fairly soft carbon of some variety. It's easy to sharpen but requires pretty regular touch ups. I often open cans with it without I'll effect. I'm all about different steels for different jobs. I have yet to really push my Infi or Swamp Rat SR101. Light chopping but nothing really weird at this point.
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It is a mule :) Takes an edge that doesn't quit.

I was initially apprehensive about "using" my INFI. That is, until I was hacking through some scrub and hit a barbed-wire fence. The blade cut into the fence peeling it back like a banana. I looked at the edge and it suffered a TINY chip with minimal rolling. 5 minutes on the DMT and it was right as rain. Since then, I've had no qualms about making the knife work. I also trust that if I somehow break my sharpened pry bar, Jerry will make good.
 
I think some of the steel specific threads are very educating and valuable. Others remind me of the AR15 forum guys who act like a barrel made of 4140 steel, vs. 4150, will explode if fired. Knife steels seem to really offer some specific virtues for different activities. 1095 and AUS8A seem capable of more than I could ask for, but I enjoy reading about other steels. I bought a HEST II in Sleipner and enjoyed reading about it, though the info was limited. In reality, it would probably last me forever if made from "Surgical Stainless Steel":D It mainly gives me some pride in ownership and extra mental comfort to know it's made with a really good steel.
 
jimh0220 said:
It's amazing how the average guy who has no idea about knife steels can pick up any knife and cut things with it, sharpen it with a cheap sharpeners, and keep cutting
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In my experience, the average guy can butcher the hell out of an edge, saw away at material for a while, cursing how he cannot get it back to factory sharpness.
Oh yeah, and the blade is WAY more narrow after each "average guy" sharpening.

(I was an "average guy" in my teens :D)
 
When I first got into knives I was really into the steels. I thought that the steel would make a huge difference and really make the knife. Overtime I began to realize other things made a knife an effective tool. I learned more about edge geometry and blade thickness and quickly learned steel really made little difference in my uses. I used to use my knives a lot more as a gardener but since working on my current cAreer I just don't use my knives as hard anymore. For me a knife with a decent steel with a nice flat ground blade works best for me. Thick bladed knives are a no go as they just don't make good tools for slicing. Super steels get sharpened less but honestly it doesn't really make much of a functional difference.
In the last while I've been thinking about selling most of my collection as I really don't need much but a few decent knives :). Funny how as you learn you often find your collection getting smaller :)
 
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