Knife Test?: I called BS on this.

Well, a couple of things...

1. Looks like a 45 degree angle to me
2. I doubt that a perfect imprint of the edge geometry would be left with this test
3. How do you suggest they rigged it?
 
Competition edge used in the test is perhaps the most acute edge Busse makes. Acute edge gets damaged more easily.
 
Well, a couple of things...

1. Looks like a 45 degree angle to me
2. I doubt that a perfect imprint of the edge geometry would be left with this test
3. How do you suggest they rigged it?

As I mentioned the edge on the dragon seems quite obtuse. And I don't think that it's bevels even meet.

and the one on the busse seems quite sharp.

Anyway of you think that this is a valid test. I welcome your opinion.
 
This test is genius!

Looks to be a new standard way to check how well a edge will hold up to every day needs.
 
Well, a couple of things...

1. Looks like a 45 degree angle to me
2. I doubt that a perfect imprint of the edge geometry would be left with this test
3. How do you suggest they rigged it?

As I am the OP for this, I would to answer these questions because they are relevant;

The purpose of the test was not to prove anything but to find out - and its no scam, the smith's family went to school with my wife's family and lived only two houses down the road. In fact the smith's father is still good friends with my brother-in-law.

It was just two guys talking about knives, that two hours later, resulted with the test. The only one who gained was me - I now have two notches; one in my Busse SQ and one in Buck Strider, both are good conversation pieces.

Regarding edges, the dragon was touched-up prior to the test and was about 40 degrees inclusive. The Busse was an SQ with Competition Finish meaning it was factory finished with a conves edge for cutting competitions, therefore the best that Busse could make for cutting everything from wood, string, straw, etc. in that model.

I will be flex testing the reference blade, and doing other stuff too, so we shall see how good it is. I will provide pictures of course.

I have never heard about blade-on-blade tests before, but others apparently have. I am told that it was the precursor to the Rockwell tests when we fought with swords.

I am open to any information on this because I really would like to learn more from people who have done this before.
 
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Take 20 degree INFI edge resting on 2mm shoulder, bang it against 50 degree 1095 edge resting on 2mm shoulder. Check which one has deeper damage. I bet 20 degree will be damaged deeper, even if it is INFI. What does it prove?

The funny thing is that some people on that forum understand the issue of such testing, but calling it a BS pretty much goes against the idea of the whole website itself. There is no room for science or practical application.
Who cares about edge geometry, who cares if knife can barely cut anything... Let's just bang the blades against each other and see who wins.
 
As I mentioned the edge on the dragon seems quite obtuse. And I don't think that it's bevels even meet.

and the one on the busse seems quite sharp.

Anyway of you think that this is a valid test. I welcome your opinion.

Nah, I don't see how it's a valid test, I just don't see how it would have been rigged, and I don't agree that the angle looked very obtuse. As the OP now revealed, it's ~40 degrees. Seems to fit in pretty well with most bevels I see. I was mostly curious about how you thought it was rigged.

Either way, the answer has already come and gone about the Busse having a thinner edge. Not much mystery here.
 
Interesting. However, Busse doesn't claim to have the hardest steel. The knives are at around 58-60 RC if I recall correctly, and the claim is that although it is tough, and holds its edge well, and is pretty flexible, the steel will roll or dent over chipping out, which makes it considerably easier to repair back to a working edge...not that it won't do any of these when struck or striking something as hard or harder than itself.

Although it does look like the Busse in the pic may have ripped out in the area of impact, the one pic of the Busse isn't clear enough to be sure, and only one side is visible and slightly out of focus. However, the other knife blade edge does appear to have chipped at the point of impact, as shown in one of the images.

Also, as PatriotDan pointed out, the convexed Competition Finish edge is the thinnest angled edge Busse does, and it is sharp... At BLADE 2009, I told Jerry that I heard that he could fillet a piece of paper with these, and would he demonstrate this for me. He grins, snags a piece of ordinary notebook paper, reaches into a box full of these Comp Finish edged SARsquatch's and grabs one up and then proceeds to effortlessly fillet the paper over & over again! So seeing this and owning a few myself, it does not surprise me that when hammered with another piece of edged steel and a hammer, it sank in that 1.2MM on this particular Busse model. I do highly doubt that you'd see quite the same depth achieved on a Busse with the same thickness & an edge angle similar to the other knife used to test it.

I didn't read that whole thread...does the OP say what the hardness of the other knife is, or what type steel it is?
 
This was a so called edge on edge test. It's obviously rigged because the resulting nicks on the edges show that the dragon has an edge almost as obtuse as a cold chisel.

http://www.knifetest.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1780

I don't think it is really.

Say the Busse is 58 RC or about.

The other blade is likely 62 or better at the edge so yeah it's not a suprise.

What that test showed me is both blades are tough as neither one cracked.
 
I don't think it is really.

Say the Busse is 58 RC or about.

The other blade is likely 62 or better at the edge so yeah it's not a suprise.

What that test showed me is both blades are tough as neither one cracked.

That's actually what I mean rigged. When you know one blade is harder and it has a thicker edge, what else can the result be?

As you have so often shown, I think that for an edge test to be valid, the edges must be of similar thickness.
 
That's actually what I mean rigged. When you know one blade is harder and it has a thicker edge, what else can the result be?

As you have so often shown, I think that for an edge test to be valid, the edges must be of similar thickness.

I don't really think it was supposed to be a test against a Busse and the other blade. It was as was stated in the thread just something to talk about.

It's not to say one blade is better than the other or anything like that or a formal test.

What it does show is both blades are good. :thumbup:

Remember the Busse is a production blade and the other is hand forged so there is going to be a difference in heat treating and tempering, also one was a sword and the other is a knife so that's another difference in how they would have to be tempered.
 
Edge on edge test?? Doesn't matter for me. No matter what the result would be I wouldnt say that one blade is BETTER than other based on this test.
 
Edge on edge test?? Doesn't matter for me. No matter what the result would be I wouldnt say that one blade is BETTER than other based on this test.

Back in the days when men used steel to fight instead of guns it was a valid testing process. If the Sword is too soft it could be cut through by another sword in battle. If a sword was too brittle it would shatter or break in battle.
 
I already commented on the other forum, so I'll keep it simple here. It is a great demonstration of how geometry is extremely important. There are limits however, and this is where heat treatment comes into play. Try that same test on a piece of unhardened steel with as obtuse an edge as you want and the results will be very lopsided. However, with no actual goal and no agenda, as stated by Falcor, I see no way to make the test "rigged." That implies a certain outcome is desired, when this is more curiosity than anything.
 
I already commented on the other forum, so I'll keep it simple here. It is a great demonstration of how geometry is extremely important. There are limits however, and this is where heat treatment comes into play. Try that same test on a piece of unhardened steel with as obtuse an edge as you want and the results will be very lopsided. However, with no actual goal and no agenda, as stated by Falcor, I see no way to make the test "rigged." That implies a certain outcome is desired, when this is more curiosity than anything.

Well, Ok. I'm wrong in calling it rigged. It is too strong a word but the outcome of that so called test was never in doubt.
 
I'm with Ankerson on this one.

It was an interesting test, plain and simple. Not meant to be definitive, not meant to prove anything other than what happens when a harder edge meets a softer edge and a swift force is applied.

I would expect a Mazda Miata to fair poorly when being crashed into a Buick--similar to the Busse vs. Dragon here.

What it showed me was that two well made blades held up in surprisingly good ways. The surprising part being that the only damage to each was a small chip/deforming of the edge.

If anything, the Mazda in this test (Busse) held its' own in a surprising fashion.

Neat read.

Best,

Heekma
 
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