Knife Values / Prices

+1 to Scurvies pricing model. I've only given one knife away and haven't sold anything but I'm asked everyday by a bunch of coworkers when they can finally buy a knife from me. I've asked their opinions on value and it is always higher than what I thought. Point is, do not under value your time. As a hobbiest I am fully aware that there are a lot of excellent makers trying to make a living and put food on their plates doing something that I would do for free if I could just make enough for supplies. IMHO selling knives at cost (not that you were planning on it) is a disservice to everyone on this forum. There is no easy answer but it kills me to see great knives selling for $90.

Using the model above I ask myself how long would it take a Wheeler/Terrio/Niro to make my knife and even at minimum wage plus costs I usually come out at the low two hundred dollar mark. The funny part is that I know I can actually get that much off my friends (not that i would try) but how can I ask that much when I know a knife from Justin King blows mine out of the water and could be had for not much more.

Simple answer is to become a better maker fast and don't feel guilty about selling them for what they are worth.
 
Also along the lines of pricing and staying Consistent (IMO very important) you can use a spread sheet and formulas to keep track of everything. This also makes it easier to adjust small things like using a more expensive handle material, charging more in the abrasives column for grinding a thicker bar stock, or using a more expensive epoxy or pin stock material. Now that you have the spread sheet you also have a history that you can go back and refer to should you need to. I have been using edit grid but google docs may be a better option now a days.
 
I also like Scurvy's post. A lot of guys just say to come up with an hourly rate, but the problem with that, is the better/faster you get, the less money you'd get... whereas in the beginning you'd charge like $5,000 for a simple hunter. :eek: :D

Scurvy's model helps to factor that into the equation. :thumbup:

And Strider- Thank you for making a concerted effort to keep that stuff in mind. I know some folks couldn't care less what/if the effect of stupid low prices have on the grand scheme of things--- so it is very much appreciated that you do. :) :cool: :)
 
Strider, I had the same experience recently. One of the receptionists at my work saw one of my tester knives and wanted one for her husband. When I told her how much I would charge for it, she said "That's very reasonable." I figured she would have decided not to get a knife, but she thought I was undercharging.
 
Pricing your work is very hard for any brand of craftsman to do. I do this a lot for my apprentices, and I always wish someone had just told me what to charge. Instead I was sitting at the computer waffling about my own price, then hitting post with a feeling like I was walking the plank. I think this is normal for all craftsmen.

When an apprentice asks what he should sell a piece for, I consider two things. First I consider the overall quality of the piece. How are the technical skills applied, is the design pleasing? I generally give the piece an 'ideal world' value based on its quality right away. Then I consider the brand name of the maker. This, for an apprentice, is unfortunately a negative. No one knows who you are and your annonymity is subtracted from that ideal price. This changes as you develop your brand name, and eventually, hopefully your name adds to the value of the knife. Best way to spread your reputation is to be customer responsive, and generous with your warranty. Your warranty is a very valuable way to grow your brand.
 
You're very welcome Nick. :)

Having never sold a knife I'm not sure why I feel so strongly about the subject. Maybe it's because I hope to start selling one day in the future, but I already feel my "books" are so backlogged with people I know that selling to the public is probably a long way off.

Be forewarned, this might turn into a rant...

I disagree, at least in a literal sense, about giving knives away and in may seem contrary to what I already wrote but it's not. I think it's perfectly fine to give knives away to family and close friends as you work on perfecting your skills. Obviously their expectations on something they didn't pay for should not put unwarranted pressure on you to give them more than simply the best you can make at the time. By the same token friends could buy your knife at cost or a small "profit" and in both cases have ZERO effect on the custom knife market simply because they were not in the market in the first place. The difference comes to life when you advertise your wares for sale to the public and outside of your small circle.

I've read many times that someone who produces a high quality knife still can't get the price they feel it deserves because they don't have the reputation to back it up. Well, if you could produce at the quality level of Nick (good luck with that) and have no reputation then of course you are not going to receive the premium he deserves but you can definately receive a fair price and to say otherwise and compromise your price is a cop-out. Sure, a well respected name will command more but I have walked tables at the shows and picked up knives from someone I never heard of and immediately understood that their piece was fantastic. If you can't seem to get a fair price you need to ask yourself if you are really doing all you can to get there. If you are posting for sale on an open forum the first and most important thing you need are super quality pictures. Do you use a lightbox? Quality camera? Appropriate background? Good pics go a long way. There are other things, too. Are you a helpful member of the online community? If your first post in Bladeforums is in Customs For Sale area then good luck to you. Did you describe in detail all aspects of the knife? Do you offer a full refund if dissatisfied? Maybe explain how this knife imparts your extensive knowledge of blade geometry or HT. What kind of testing have you done? What is the intended purpose on the knife? In my opinion a good reputation can be earned in as little as a single posting. The example comes to mind of Matthew Gregory. I had never heard of him up to that point but after reading a post from him I decided that he makes nice knives.

Okay, starting to really ramble so I'll just conclude with, there is more to selling a knife than just the knife itself. You should give yourself a raise in your hourly rate when your quality goes up and price it inline with the model already mentioned. Oh, and go to as many shows as you can. Listen to me, I have zero sales under my belt. :)
 
Thanks for all of the comments, guys.

Scurvy, I have 2 buddies and a brother who are or have been in the auto repair business (2 mechanics and 1 body man) so I understand how that pay system works; an expert mechanic can make 50 "book" hours in a 40 hour week, etc. I never thought of applying that to knives buuit makes sense.

Timos, I thought about the spreadsheet idea as well. It seems like a lot of work, but I am going to have to get more organized and keep better records at some point.

I have given several knives to family members. The problem I have is that most of the relatives I have given them to are not "knife guys". So I dont get good feedback on the quality of my knives. I am way more critical than they are but at the same time, every knife I make is more practice and an opportunity to get better.

Thanks again,

Randy
 
Randy,

It is some work initially but it ends up being a huge time saver. You can keep track of everything from time spent on each knife to who bought it and when. You can even start linking a finished knife to pics in photobucket etc.

I do not see how selling low hurts the hand made knife market. I've always considered a handmade knife or knife maker's brand as completely unique. Like any artist trying to build a rep and sell stuff. You sell as low as you can just to continue making stuff. As your work is in more demand you will charge more because frankly, people will pay it if they really want one of your knives.
I look at handmade knife makers more like individual artists. Its all about creating desire for your knife by building your own unique style. Price comes from supply and demand not competing with other knife makers. I think this is the true spirit behind the handmade knife community and why everyone is willing to share and help each other. just my 2 cents.
 
Ah, the eternal "pricing" debate. Lots of great advice given so far in this thread, so I'm not sure what my $.02 will add, but here goes:

When I first started selling knives, my asking prices BARELY took care of materials + consumables. In fact, I didn't price them much more (if at all) than a similar sized mass produced fixed blade would go for from a company like Buck Knives, Gerber, etc... $40, $50 or even $60 for a small necker.

As I got better, I started asking more. I started factoring my time in, paying closer attention to what each knife cost me to build. looking at what other "lesser known" makers were charging for a similar piece (or in other words, what the "market price" was on average), etc....

Eventually, my prices almost "found themselves". Truth be told, I'm probably a little on the cheap side compared to a lot of makers, but I'm happy with the price. I may not make much per hour when it's all said and done, but I make enough to buy more materials, pay for the occasional tool, and pay the occasion bill. In the end, I also look at it as paying myself in experience. Even if I just make enough to cover materals, how much is my experience worth? (Granted, I don't do this to put food on the table. I have a full time job for that.)

At the end of the day, the more knives I can move at the good price, the more orders I'll get, the more knives I'll make, the more experience I'll receive.
When a day comes that I'm getting too many orders, or I don't feel that I'm getting what the knife is worth, THEN I'll start raising prices accordingly.

Some makers also say you should be able to make 3 to 4 knives for every 1 that you sell, materials, consumables, etc... all included.
 
I don't have a dog in the fight just yet but if you really think about it, supply and demand doesn't really fill the whole equation of what the custom knife market is all about. I'm all about a free market society and no one will tell you what your prices should be but selling knives to the public at cost IS a disservice to the whole maker community and if I can gather my thoughts coherently (long day) I'll try and explain my thoughts.

I wish I had an analogous market to compare but I can't think of one and really mane none exists. So, maker A is selling knives at cost because it's fun and he needs the experience while maker B intends a little profit built into his price to pay for food. Maker B has a better quality product because of his typically greater experience so he still manages to sell his product but buyers really need to see a huge improvement over maker A's knife in order to justify why he deserves to actually pay himself a few bucks an hour in wages. Maker A doesn't seem to have a priblem selling knives at cost. Hmm. The knife buying public sees $70 as very reasonable for a custom knife that cost $65 dollars and 15 hours to make. Consumers are no dummies. Now maker A thinks his stuff is the bees knees and everyone knows him as making a great product for cheap so he decides to pay himself a fair hourly wage and see some profit... Along comes maker C selling at cost and maker A and B are both banging their heads.

Okay, maybe I dumbed it down too much but it's all I can comprehend myself righ now.
 
I used to breed reptiles, and found it frustrating to bring several hundred animals to a show when someone accidentally bred their pets and found feeding the babies too expensive, so they would sell animals for $25.00, when it takes $50.00 to feed a single animal to sellable size. We would get 10 or so of these clowns each show, and have to wait for them to sell out before we had any buyers.
 
Nathan the Machinist said:
I'm right up the road from you. I've been to quite a few knife shows, I've looked at a lot of people's work and I have a very critical eye. If you want someone to critique (judge) your work you can bring it over and I'd be happy to give you my opinion.
Click to expand...

update: I took some knives by Nathan's about 2 weeks ago and had a nice chat with Nathan about my knives and life in general. I knew where most of my flaws were and Nathan gave me some good advice. We were mostly in the same ballpark on prices/values and I followed Nathan's advice when setting my prices for the knife show. The show was this past weekend and was a very pleasant experience. the venue was nice, the hotel was nice and i managed to sell 8 or 9 knives over 2 days. Of course, Pop's Knife Supply was there so I spent over 1/2 of the money I brought in at Pop's tables. :)

The only thing i will do different next time is bump the price $10-$20 over what I think it should be. I guess I am an idiot but I wasn't anticipating customers wanting to haggle prices on a $50 neck knife. :)

thanks again, Nathan.

randy
 
It's good to remember that there are just all kinds of people out there who buy knives, and what they perceive as "value" isn't the same thing that a knife maker sees as "value."
I have people bring knives to me for sharpening that they've bought from "custom" makers that aren't really very well made at all .....BUT..... there's some antler, some brass, an eye catching sheath, and an interesting maker's mark. The perceived value of a knife like that is fairly high for the average guy, and there's a LOT of guys like that out buying knives.
Here's another one- I took some knives to a pretty big MC run yesterday expecting them to appreciate them...and they did, but they didn't buy them, simply because they're a very conformist group, and if it doesn't look "Harley-ish" they're not going to buy it.
Perceived value strikes again.
I judge a handmade knife by the level of craftsmanship, but that's really a maker/collector thing.
 
Cool man, I'm glad to hear you had a good sale. :thumbup:

I've found that some people just want to haggle price. It's not that they have a problem with the price, they just want to haggle it. You could offer them an original Loveless for $100 and they'd want it for $80.

Personally I don't haggle price. The price is the price. Most folks understand that once you explain it to them.
 
Nice follow up Randy! :) :thumbup:

Some folks just have haggling in their blood. I am not one of them. I don't like trying to get somebody down on their price, and I hate it even more when people try to get me down on mine.


At shows, I just try to politely tell folks that I don't haggle. Like Nathan said, most guys are fine with it. Some want to argue. Personally, I don't want to go to shows to argue with anybody.
 
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On the topic of price haggling and deal seekers, I have been having a pile of tire kickers lately. In the last two weeks I have had a request for a clone of a buck vanguard gut hook, which is about a 60 dollar knife, but "did not want to pay for the buck name". I asked if he meant he didn't want the buck name on it, and he said that he meant he didn't want to spend as much as they were asking. I told him there was no way I could help him and make a custom knife for less than the 60 dollars they wanted for a production mass produced knife. I also had another guy two days ago want a tom brown tracker clone. I stated I would not do a direct clone but could work with him on something that had certain attributes he was after. Again once price was discussed I told him I could not help him as he felt tops was charging double what he wanted to pay. Quick math told me he was looking for a knife with relatively complex grinds and shaping, for less than 100 bucks, something I could not do. I know everyone probably has some requests like this but it seems like right now with hunting season firing up, these requests are getting more frequent.
 
Grayzer86 said:
In the last two weeks I have had a request for a clone of a buck vanguard gut hook, which is about a 60 dollar knife, but "did not want to pay for the buck name". I asked if he meant he didn't want the buck name on it, and he said that he meant he didn't want to spend as much as they were asking. .
Click to expand...

That man was shaken as baby. Remember folks, never shake a baby. :(
 
Grayzer86 said:
On the topic of price haggling and deal seekers, I have been having a pile of tire kickers lately. In the last two weeks I have had a request for a clone of a buck vanguard gut hook, which is about a 60 dollar knife, but "did not want to pay for the buck name". I asked if he meant he didn't want the buck name on it, and he said that he meant he didn't want to spend as much as they were asking. I told him there was no way I could help him and make a custom knife for less than the 60 dollars they wanted for a production mass produced knife. I also had another guy two days ago want a tom brown tracker clone. I stated I would not do a direct clone but could work with him on something that had certain attributes he was after. Again once price was discussed I told him I could not help him as he felt tops was charging double what he wanted to pay. Quick math told me he was looking for a knife with relatively complex grinds and shaping, for less than 100 bucks, something I could not do. I know everyone probably has some requests like this but it seems like right now with hunting season firing up, these requests are getting more frequent.
Click to expand...

*sorry for some thread drift Randy* :foot:

IMHO, this type of thinking is based on folks thinking of custom knives as HOME MADE.... rather than HAND MADE! (In addition, of course, to being cheap-skates ;) ).

Cuz surely a guy who is cobbling something together out in his garage, couldn't possibly charge as much as a REAL knife company... right?!?!?


So for many of these guys, I think it's simply a lack of education/understanding.

But---- there are also the ones that ate paint chips while being shaken as a baby. ;)
 
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