Knifemakers Guild / Shackleford / Terzuola

I can only speak as a consumer. From where I'm sitting if computer enabled machines play a part in blanking or grinding or anything else for that matter I consider the knife a production piece. It may be a "limited custom production" or Mid-tech or just a nicely finished production knife but it is not a handmade custom.

The relaxed guidelines established by the Guild do make the Guild irrelevant.

It will only be a few years when custom makers are no more than a brand name - just a small manufacturing facility.

After all what makes this different than a major knife company.
They use CAM - they have employees do assembly and finishing work.
Just because the owner also does work in the shop doesn't make it special all of a sudden. Most business owners participate in the day to day operations of their business.
I suspect the modern well financed knife maker actually makes use of more automated technology than "production" knives did 30 years ago - that in fact older production knives were closer to handmade than some of the "customs" today.


Go ahead - make it easier on yourselves and continue to lessen the craft.
Just think how easy it will be to blank out that United Hibben style fantasy knife. If it's not handmade what makes it special? The use of CAD / CAM by knife manufacturers is turning out some pretty impressive knives today. How will you compete with what they turn out tomorrow? How do you distinguish yourselves if not by skillfully crafting by hand?
 
The guild is an irrelevant anachronism whose only achievement is a mediocre knife show in the florida off season.

I have been wondering for the past two years what turned the Guild show from the amazing show that it was in 1993 to what I saw in 2005.
 
I can only speak as a consumer. From where I'm sitting if computer enabled machines play a part in blanking or grinding or anything else for that matter I consider the knife a production piece. It may be a "limited custom production" or Mid-tech or just a nicely finished production knife but it is not a handmade custom.

The relaxed guidelines established by the Guild do make the Guild irrelevant.

It will only be a few years when custom makers are no more than a brand name - just a small manufacturing facility.

After all what makes this different than a major knife company.
They use CAM - they have employees do assembly and finishing work.
Just because the owner also does work in the shop doesn't make it special all of a sudden. Most business owners participate in the day to day operations of their business.
I suspect the modern well financed knife maker actually makes use of more automated technology than "production" knives did 30 years ago - that in fact older production knives were closer to handmade than some of the "customs" today.


Go ahead - make it easier on yourselves and continue to lessen the craft.
Just think how easy it will be to blank out that United Hibben style fantasy knife. If it's not handmade what makes it special? The use of CAD / CAM by knife manufacturers is turning out some pretty impressive knives today. How will you compete with what they turn out tomorrow? How do you distinguish yourselves if not by skillfully crafting by hand?

Skilled craftspeople use tools that best supplement their skill set, and their mind set. Some buyers will wait and wait and wait for just the perfect thing made in just the right way. Others just want the best tool, regardless of how it is made.

Just as there will always be a small number of people that will wait years and years for a handmade violin made with just the exact perfect materials, there will be a small number of people that will wait for just the right forged blade with just the right filed ferrule. That's fine and hopefully, fulfilling for both parties.

However, I think you hit the nail on the head, although unintenionally.

It will only be a few years when custom makers are no more than a brand name - just a small manufacturing facility.

All craftspeople, in a business sense, are indeed a small manufacturing facility - it is really a black and white issue. You use "small manufacturing facility" in the perjorative, but you don't need to. The broad generalization of so-called "custom" or "handmade" knives has always been a promotional term (even Les agrees on this point), not a description of the process. Once we throw off the misleading term "custom", then I think clarity can once again define what the "rules" of the Guild could be.

By the way, are people paying $5,000 for a new Loveless-Merrit Hunter because the magic performance? No, it is a successful "brand" at this point.

If the Guild is promoting a business model of the isolated individual toiling with elbow grease, then yes, I agree with Lombardo that the Guild will whither to support the very narrow number of buyers that consider that inherently important. (That said, a lot of those small number of buyers have a lot of money to spend, so the economics may work for some). If the Guild is promoting knives, then they need to change their rules and define what the hell is really important about "Guild" knives.

Atlhough many here in the Custom Forum might not agree, the distance in tool performance between "custom" knives and "factory" knives has IMO shrunken considerably just in the last ten years. I am a big fan of certain of these factories. However, with the notable exception of Chris Reeve, Matt Conable and Gary Randall (there may be others I am missing here) no "factory" is going to be able to meet the fit and finish of the well-made "custom" knife. I think this is what the Guild needs to hang their hat on. The finishing and tight tolerances required simply cannot be done by a machine (yet) - it is not even close. CRK, WH and Randall all have a very small group of individuals that do this work for them - iwhich is why their work is outstanding and commands "custom" prices. Somehow, the idea that three of four folks might be doing the work instead of one doesn't produce the same euphoria in some buyers, so there will always be work for the very smallest (one person) of factories.

It is notable that CRK, WH and Randall all still grind and file the blades by hand - it goes to show you that machines cannot achieve the level of quality of the hand ground blade. In fact, WH has ALL of their blades ground by a single person (Matsuda). So, there is another place to hang your hat, Guild.

Finally, the main advantage that an individual has over the super-quality "factory" knives is that there is very little set-up cost in retooling for the next design or tweak of an existing design. CRK and Randall basically never change their designs and except for costmetic tweaks, you get what you get. Matt Conable at least keeps rolling out new designs almost anually, but it simply requires too much burden on even a small factory (say less than 20 persons) to continually tweak the machines. It is this way in all businesses - turning the battleship gets harder and harder the bigger you are.
 
I’ve spent lots of time discussing this issue with knifemakers. The issue is always:

Where do you draw the line?

- Blade steel?
- CNC made parts?
- Damascus?
- Engraving?
- Folder pivots?
- Heat treating?
- Micarta?
- Mosaic Pins?
- Pre-processed raw materials?
- Screws?

If wood is used as a handle material, should the knifemaker:
- Fall the tree
- Resaw the logs into lumber
- Cut the lumber into blocks
- Kiln dry the blocks
- Stabilize the wood
If no, why? If yes, why?

If mammoth ivory is used in should the knifemaker:
- Find the tusk
- Sand off the crust
- Cut the scales or blocks
If no, why? If yes, why?

Some knifemakers smelt their steel from iron sand. Should all knifemakers make their own blade steel?
If no, why? If yes, why?

If damascus is made at a hammer-in with several people working on the billet, can the steel be used by everyone to make knives?
If no, why? If yes, why?

What about materials provided by a collector? If the material is on the “wrong” side of the line should the knifemaker refuse to use the material?
If no, why? If yes, why?

Should a pivot made in a shop by CNC be acceptable and a folder liner made by CNC not be acceptable?
If no, why? If yes, why?

If no part can be made by CNC, what about tools that are made by CNC tools?
If no, why? If yes, why?

What about shop assistants/apprentices? What level of work is acceptable to by made by the assistant?
If none, why? If any, why?

Most of the examples above have knifemakers doing the work themselves and other knifemakers buying the parts/services/tools.

Where do you draw the line?

By the way, going back through the whole thread - I think these questions need real answers from the Guild. It is a great list of questions. I think answering the "why" part is not easy.
 
It is real easy for me. If I like it, and it only has one name (the makers) on it, I consider it a custom.

A very small number of people are going to know whether or not it is sole authorship. And only a smaller percentage of those people reallly care.

Are my standards too low? I don't think so, I am proud of every custom I have or have had.

Whatever it takes an individual to come up with an exceptional, or even a very fine knife is fine with me.

If the Guild wants to have only makers of "art knives", then I have gone to my last Guild show, and I really don't want a knife from those makers who set those rules.

Let us be realistic, knife makers need to be able to make a living.

Just my own opinion.
 
Looking at the 2006 copy of the Knifemakers' Guild By-Laws (the latest copy that I have) seems to clarify a lot of these questions and others that have come up on this thread. Article 1 Section 4 is very clear. Actually, it is very plain spoken and not legalistic at all. It says "Handmade knives shall mean those knives that are 100% made by the maker, in the maker's own shop, using his or her own equipment". It also lists some things that shall not disqualify a knife from being handmade like embellishments, screws, pins, heat treatment, and collaborations with other members. As you can see, if you read the by-laws, very few restrictions are put on an individual making knives in his own shop. The by-laws don't even address the type of equipment that can be used or not used. That covers everything from an Anvil to a water-jet cutter. I couldn't think of a tool that started with an XY or Z. There is no mention of materials used or the shape or condition they are in. Enough said about that.
This leads me to my next point and that is that the Guild is for individuals making knives. There is no classification of membership for groups of individuals, corporations, employees or partnerships. In our own partnership, Twin Blades, Harry and I have had to join as individuals in order to show knives that we make together as a collaboration.
This organization has in its by-laws the methodology for changing by-laws by the board and by voting members. Note that you do have a classification of voting member. This gives the individual members a say in the direction the organization takes. I for one believe the direction is changing for the better.
This is all just my interpretation of a very simple section of the by-laws. I never was very good at interpreting what people meant to say, just what they said.
 
It is real easy for me. If I like it, and it only has one name (the makers) on it, I consider it a custom.

A very small number of people are going to know whether or not it is sole authorship. And only a smaller percentage of those people reallly care.

Are my standards too low? I don't think so, I am proud of every custom I have or have had.

Whatever it takes an individual to come up with an exceptional, or even a very fine knife is fine with me.

If the Guild wants to have only makers of "art knives", then I have gone to my last Guild show, and I really don't want a knife from those makers who set those rules.

Let us be realistic, knife makers need to be able to make a living.

Just my own opinion.

There is absolutely nothing in the Guild by-laws nor have I ever heard a single Guild member say that only makers of "art knives" are welcome.

Michael Lovett's story about his experience 20 years ago is the one and only time I have ever heard of anything like that. I can't speak from experience of the way things were 20 years ago but I certainly don't think it has any bearing on anything now. I know there were as many "users" at this year's Guild Show as there were "art knives".
 
Very True. Remember, this was at the last Dallas Guild Show in 1987. It wasn't the "Rules" of the Guild then or now. It was the self imposed rules of the three individuals and a few others listed. Many of the Names of fine members I listed have sadly passed away. Most notably were George Herron, Jimmy Lile, Norman Levine and Clay Gault. Good Friends all! But I am sure that most if not all of the remaining names on the List world verify what I have said. Well most any way. Some would dare not say a thing! Politics stills rules. As in most things. I think the Guild is back to doing what a Guild is supposed to do. But I am unwilling at this stage of my carrier to become a probationary member. It must be remembered that I have been doing this for 33 years. A far cry from being a newbie! Sure I still have lots to learn, as we all ( Makers) do. But if an ABS Master
Smith need not go through probationary membership, Neither Will I. I think I have more than proved myself.

Other notable makers and friends that still remember what happened were WD Pease, Frank Centafante, D'Holder and Kit Carson. Kit didn't try to join for years after that because of the treatment I received. The insulting part to many makers, Buster Warrenski, George Herron, Jimmy Lile for instance was being told by Fred Carter that they Basically had no idea what to look for in a quality hand make knife. George was furious. Jimmy was truly hurt. Buster just shook his head. The arrogance was unbelievable! There was no excuse for it what so ever. Respectfully, and with thanks to all these fine makers for standing behind my work. I am honored. Mike Lovett
 
Anyone who thinks using CAD software to design knives, CAM software to creat G-Code programs to drive computer controlled machines and setting up and operating CNC machinery makes knifemaking EASY is absolutely clueless!! You're talking about mastering 2-3 separate PROFESSIONS right there.

Hand grinding blades is a walk in the park in comparison... learn a few techniques and off you go. Seriously, it ain't that hard... frustrating sometimes, but difficult? Nah.

BTW:
The reason knifemakers (and many middle sized manufactures) lack modern, CNC controlled grinding machines is because they weigh upwards of 10,000 lbs. and cost a good $500,000. These machines also require a substantial amount of training to learn and are not usually ecconomical to set up for runs under 500 blades.

Good modern machines grind a great blade. Better than many hand-ground blades. Take a look at some of the top-line blades from Spyderco and Benchmade (among others): excellent blades.

The machines on which my big Chef's Knives were ground weighed 24,000 lbs. had twin 30 horse motors and the machine operator had almost 40 years of experience. If they GAVE me the machines it would take me several years to learn to operate them.

Any profession – including knifemaking – that doesn't adapt to new production techniques and meterials technology is sticking its head in the sand. As long as the Knifemaker is honest with his customers, there should be no rules regarding machinery used, just rules against telling lies and deceiving customers.
 
I don't think there is any argument that there are many excellent machine made knives. However, there is a large segment of collectors and users who prefer handmade knives for a variety of reasons. The Knifemakers Guild is for makers of handmade knives. The problem is in defining when one crosses the line from handmade to machine made when using today's modern tools.

I have no doubt that there is a great deal of expertise and skill is required to program a CNC machine but I am in the camp that does not consider a knife hand assembled from machine made parts "hand made" in the same sense as a knife made by someone who physically ground the blade by hand. I, like many others, prefer the latter.
 
I have been wondering for the past two years what turned the Guild show from the amazing show that it was in 1993 to what I saw in 2005.

That is easy, Bob Turzola, Mel Perdue, Warren Osborne and The man who shoes race horses.
 
but I am in the camp that does not consider a knife hand assembled from machine made parts "hand made"

You really have a misconception of what "assembled" entails. A knifemaker who cuts out parts on a bandsaw "assembles" these parts into a knife the same as a Maker who cuts out the parts on a CNC Mill.

I have 4 types of grinders – which are machines – with which to grind my blades. In my shop I have to hold each blade in my hand while grinding. Those with larger machines can grind more blades in a shorter time span than I can. I had the blades ground on my kitchen cutlery in order to produce a better cutting kitchen knife blade than I economically grind in my shop. I can't pay $100,000 (used price for some slightly older machines) for the grinders needed to do that. People don't buy my kitchen knives to put in a display cse, they get used daily. That's what they are designed for.

There's a major misunderstanding of the "assembly" process by those who have never built a knife... actually "building a knife" is more accurate.

Making a high quality folder takes lots of individual fitting up of parts and most parts (Clips and grip scale overlays being usually the only exception) are not interchangable from knife to knife.
 
That is easy, Bob Turzola, Mel Perdue, Warren Osborne and The man who shoes race horses.
So what exactly happened? I was at the FKA show today in Tampa and I signed up with Dan Piergallini for the Gator Show in February (my first!!!!) I told him that last year, it looked like it was almost as big as the '05 Guild Show and he told me that it will have over 220 tables this year and will, in fact, be bigger than the '07 Guild Show. I can only guess that the '92 or '93 show I went to had 400 tables or more and the show was supposed to be moving into a BIGGER hall that was being built at the Marriot World Center the following year.
 
Anyone who thinks using CAD software to design knives, CAM software to creat G-Code programs to drive computer controlled machines and setting up and operating CNC machinery makes knifemaking EASY is absolutely clueless!! You're talking about mastering 2-3 separate PROFESSIONS right there.

Agreed not easy professions, but programing, not handmade knifemaking IMO.

Any profession – including knifemaking – that doesn't adapt to new production techniques and meterials technology is sticking its head in the sand. As long as the Knifemaker is honest with his customers, there should be no rules regarding machinery used, just rules against telling lies and deceiving customers.

Agreed that knife production facilities should adapt to the latest production techniques and material technology, however handmade custom knives should be made by hand IMO.

I don't think there is any argument that there are many excellent machine made knives. However, there is a large segment of collectors and users who prefer handmade knives for a variety of reasons. The Knifemakers Guild is for makers of handmade knives. The problem is in defining when one crosses the line from handmade to machine made when using today's modern tools.

I have no doubt that there is a great deal of expertise and skill is required to program a CNC machine but I am in the camp that does not consider a knife hand assembled from machine made parts "hand made" in the same sense as a knife made by someone who physically ground the blade by hand. I, like many others, prefer the latter.

That pretty much sums it up for me.
 
This issue of what constitutes a "handmade" knife will never be resolved no matter how many or how long our threads become.

The collector who appreciates fine knives made meticulously by hand utilizing basic and simplistic tools will continue to buy and cherish these knives.

The collector who appreciates and believes he gets a better knife by makers that utilize sophisticated and computerized machinery to make components and hand assembling these components will continue to buy and cherish these knives.

Thus, ALL are satisfied.

So why is there need for a line drawn to strictly distinguish the two?
It seems the Guild would be best served by just trying to get makers and collectors through the doors, rather than worrying how maker's knives are made.

IMO, what's really important is that ALL makers insure that the collector (buyer) is informed of how the knife is made before the money is laid down.
 
This issue of what constitutes a "handmade" knife will never be resolved no matter how many or how long our threads become.

The collector who appreciates fine knives made meticulously by hand utilizing basic and simplistic tools will continue to buy and cherish these knives.

The collector who appreciates and believes he gets a better knife by makers that utilize sophisticated and computerized machinery to make components and hand assembling these components will continue to buy and cherish these knives.

Thus, ALL are satisfied.

So why is there need for a line drawn to strictly distinguish the two?
It seems the Guild would be best served by just trying to get makers and collectors through the doors, rather than worrying how maker's knives are made.

IMO, what's really important is that ALL makers insure that the collector (buyer) is informed of how the knife is made before the money is laid down.

I wholeheartedly agree with everything you said here.
 
Many modern knife factories can turn out complete knives with little or no human intervention. What little intervention involves humans taking components from one machine and putting it into another.

At some point, it would be possible to make facilities affordable enough for a single or a small group of knifemakers to put raw materials in one end and completed knives including the makers mark at the other.

The role of the knifemaker would be designer, machine minder and QC.
 
It's already there. And has been for quite some time. I personally know a knife maker that has his blades water jetted, as is the titanium frame, and g-10 scales, and carbon fiber scales. The blades are double disk ground. The clips are supplied after market, as are the screws, bushings, and bearing. He gives the locking bar and or the tang a light stoning with a gunsmiths trigger stone, bead blast the blade and liner, screws every thing together, and etches his logo, then sharpens. Quite literally all the hand work he does is the stoning of the lock, and the sharpening. Total time to build a "Custom folder, 15-20 minutes. There is much more work in a kit knife. But he gets north of 40.0U.S. for them. If he has the supplied parts in stock, he can produce up wards of 20 and more knives a day. The only thing missing at the moment is enough customers to by his production. Did I say Production? Hummmm!!! Or is it really hand made. Or at least hand screwed.:jerkit: Or is it just the customer the one being screwed. They can get the same technoligy form Benchmade. It may be a small factory, Or shop, but it is still a production piece. Pure and simple. It world be a great 125.00 to 175.00 knife!
 
It's already there. And has been for quite some time. I personally know a knife maker that has his blades water jetted, as is the titanium frame, and g-10 scales, and carbon fiber scales. The blades are double disk ground. The clips are supplied after market, as are the screws, bushings, and bearing. He gives the locking bar and or the tang a light stoning with a gunsmiths trigger stone, bead blast the blade and liner, screws every thing together, and etches his logo, then sharpens. Quite literally all the hand work he does is the stoning of the lock, and the sharpening. Total time to build a "Custom folder, 15-20 minutes. There is much more work in a kit knife. But he gets north of 40.0U.S. for them. If he has the supplied parts in stock, he can produce up wards of 20 and more knives a day. The only thing missing at the moment is enough customers to by his production. Did I say Production? Hummmm!!! Or is it really hand made. Or at least hand screwed.:jerkit: Or is it just the customer the one being screwed. They can get the same technoligy form Benchmade. It may be a small factory, Or shop, but it is still a production piece. Pure and simple. It world be a great 125.00 to 175.00 knife!

Exactly! A customer who wants to buy a handmade knife, and goes to show that is supposed to be all handmade makers, should not see the knife you described above on the tables.

Like I said before, I have no problems with water jetting the blanks, and as I understand it the Guild doesn't either if the maker does it in his own shop. I don't think how the blank or scales are rough cut affects the performance or the value of the knife. Everyhting beyond that is where the materials become a knife and should be done by the maker by hand.
 
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