Knifetests.com-whats YOUR opinion

[Guyon]

Seriously, if philwar truly believes that the active members here do not regulate, or at least attempt to regulate, the stupidity that enters this virtual space , then perhaps he might avert his loving gaze from TGHM for a moment and have a look around. Such "policing" occurs on a wide variety of levels, ranging from the smallest objection to outright banishment by a moderator. This thread epitomizes this notion, given all the objections to TGHM's stunts from a wide range of members. Just because I've posted here a lot does not make me the ring leader; it just makes me a target for philwar who seemingly does not like having his views challenged.

 

[3Guardsmen]

When do I get my badge?

Right now.

 

[3Guardsmen]

Seriously, if philwar truly believes that the active members here do not regulate, or at least attempt to regulate, the stupidity that enters this virtual space , then perhaps he might avert his loving gaze from TGHM for a moment and have a look around. Such "policing" occurs on a wide variety of levels, ranging from the smallest objection to outright banishment by a moderator. This thread epitomizes this notion, given all the objections to TGHM's stunts from a wide range of members. Just because I've posted here a lot does not make me the ring leader; it just makes me a target for philwar who seemingly does not like having his views challenged.

I agree!

 

[Ankerson]

There was a knifemeaker back in the 1930's and 40's who used to do demonstrations of his knives buy hammering, yes, hammering them through things like buggy axles. His name was Frank Richtig, and I bet there were people who hated him, though he didn't wear a hockey mask.

Very cool.

Remember Busse does things like chop concrete and worse LIVE to prove their knives are tough, but then anyone who really knows knives would agree they are very tough.

 

[dingy]

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say, but my point is this: I take care of all of my knives. Scrap Yard, Swamp Rat, Cold Steel, SOG and Becker. I've seen accounts of knives breaking from every one of these companies. I won't do anything, especially in a survival situation, that may even slightly risk losing a very important cutting tool. Therefore, a sharp, taken care of knife, is much better to me than one that is dull and won't cut because I decided that I needed to hack through bricks and steel.

ya , you get the point !+!
you do not need use SY , SW,or coldsteel , man.
i have a cheaper solution here, you can go saw and made a knife , very sharp and good retention , i think that will meet what you need man.
:thumbup:

 

[dl351]

ya , you get the point !+!
you do not need use SY , SW,or coldsteel , man.
i have a cheaper solution here, you can go saw and made a knife , very sharp and good retention , i think that will meet what you need man.
:thumbup:

No, that's not my point. My point is that I own knives from all those companies, but will still never subject them to any abuse that may potentially break them. Wood batons have worked fine for me, thus I don't need to subject any knives to steel mallets.

As for whoever it was that wanted me to explain the variables of these knife failures, my point is that I've done much less complex failure analysis and it's still hard to identify the variables on much simpler problems. Some variables include: impact, fatigue, stress risers, bending moments, torsional moments, axial forces, resonance, and more. And no, it's not at all chaos theory. Smarter people than myself could do the analysis. It's not some abstract thing.

 

[greater]

Guyon wrote

"This thread epitomizes this notion, given all the objections to TGHM's stunts from a wide range of members."

Oh please I myself couldn't care less if Noss wants to conduct knife destruction tests his way. I am not going to spend all day and night in front of the mirror hissing about it either way.

Oh page 21

 

[Gator97]

A lot of work went into that site.
...
But maybe, just maybe, all the time and energy could be better spent doing work on that excellent website rather than beating dead horses in a thread

Well, thanks for the compliments on my work, and I agree that beating dead horses here is less beneficial. However, as it is right now, your post is more like "Do as I say, not as I do" type.

I would add that the opinions of trusted peers play a factor in sorting the wheat from the chaff. Therein lies one of the great values of BFC.

The greatest value of BFC and any public forum is to exchange ideas, experience and data freely. The moment you start censoring and bashing others work, simply because they do not confirm to your beliefs it looses that value considerably.

And none of them had to smash their knives with a hammer to gain this knowledge.

You know, somehow your side always manages to get around the fact that knife makers themselves smash the knives with hammers, chop concrete and etc. Without ever explaining or complaining about those makers. Main argument being that they do it to their own knives... Still, how does that apply to knowledge gain aspect?

 

[Gator97]

You know, the more I read about these "tests," the more I find flaws in the conclusions reached from them. That is why these tests are not good for the knife community.

Which is exactly why they are good. At least they make you and others think, find flaws and potentially come up with something better. Well, in your particular case you choose to join the "club" and simply declare they're bad for the community... Based on what? What exactly qualifies you to decide what is good and what is bad for the said community anyway when discussing knife testing which is very gray area.

They are misleading. I've said it once, and I'll say it again, an excellent reputation built over 30 years and continuous manufacturing quality awards should speak louder to knife buyers than beating a steel mallet on a knife.

For one, accepting anything based solely on authority is neither scientific, nor common sense. Second, manufacturing quality award has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with materials strength, hard use and such.
Third, CRK in particular has their way of doing things and many other makers with or without awards would do different for high performance knives. E.g. choosing 55-57HRC for A2 field knives, citing ease of sharpening, when the same A2 has both, toughness and wear resistance at higher levels when hardened to 60HRC. And I absolutely don't need Phd neither in engineering nor in metallurgy to make that claim, just look at the A2 charts and the fact that there are a lot of other A2 knives heat treated like that.

Back in the day the church was the absolute authority and their reputation and power was far greater than any makers today. And they fully endorsed and enforced and their scientists supported the view that the sun went around flat earth... If everyone was thinking like you we'd most likely be still living on the flat earth.
So, I think people with similar views to yours do harm any community more.

That is similar in the science community. When research and experimentation are done, conclusions are made by the researchers, and reviewed by their peers. There's reason for this! It keeps far out wackos from presenting flawed data as "science."

Oh please... Let's start with the sad fact that there is no official knife science. Then, there are huhdreds if not thousand of examples when new scientific ideas and theories were rejected, because they were too far out, only to be accepted years or decades later.

BTW, year or so ago I was doing research on the modeling of forces affecting the knife edge during cutting. I couldn't find much on the internet, that is free info, I've registered to several science websites and continued search there. I found just one article, 3 guys in France did the research, which by its title sounded like what I was after. After paying the fee, I think 35-40$ for that article I got... Nothing much, not a single formula, couple graphs which were rather obvious and few conclusions that any butcher and most of the BF members could tell you for free.

That does indicates the level and seriousness of knife research and science today. So, when you or Bros refer to all those scientific standards, I really wonder, what exactly are you talking about anyway?

You know, I guess trusting knife makers with several years experience doesn't sound too valid.

Hmm, your choice. There is CUTCO who will be happy to sell you 440A kitchen knife for $$$. be my guest. They have been around long time and if we go by numbers people out there who believe CUTCOs are the greatest knives outnumber us on BF 100:1 or more...

Plenty of people make knives that will slice and cut far better than some of these "miracle" knives on knifetests.com.

Ok, I've asked the same question others, but may be you will be the one who won't dodge it So, what is the rationale in your opinion, for making 0.25" knives, lets say by the maker that has 30 years of reputation and excellence awards. After all they do know that the same knife would cut a lot better if it was 4 times thinner.

I would just hate to see young newbies steered away from quality knives because, heaven forbid, the knife can't live through multiple hammer blows.

Gimme a break. At worst, that is a part of learning experience. Second, just because you have changed your mind doesn't mean everyone else did or has to. I just wonder at what point you guys decide that you are so knowledgeable that you can force your ideas and beliefs onto those n00bs anyway?

One last note, a sharp knife is always better than a dull knife!

It'd be interesting and perhaps more beneficial if you posted info how do you sharpen your knives, may be a photo or two with it.

Ok, so I was over on the knifetests.com forum, just snooping,

Yeah, I got that. You started criticizing someone's work long before you actually saw it. How quaint...

Science has experimentally determined how several factors affect material failure.

Hmm, now if you can show me or point me to the source of that information where it was done specifically on knives, being used by humans I'll be extremely grateful. I don't mind paying for that info either.

Analysis of breaks has created scientific data found in text books.

Sigh. This is so vague, and surprising that it's coming from someone so scientifically inclined. What breaks? Under what conditions? How do you relate that data(never citing the source btw) to knives? How does all that apply to humans using the knives?

Even from my young engineering education, I

Don't be so humble. Judging by your posts you are already a seasoned knife expert, well suited to determine what is good for n00bs and what not...

know for a fact that there are more factors involved with these knives breaking than just "hammer...knife...no break...good!"

And? He says his criteria is that. If your is different, then fine ignore it. As far as I can tell his not really forcing his testing methods and conclusions neither on n00bs nor on experts, unlike you...

The problem I see is that Noss has openly encouraged people to ignore years of existing destructive test data because, apparently, he has found a better way. Nonsense, I say.

Again, why don't you point us to knife related destructive test data? I suspect we'll end up with the same makers you say they don't care, Noss, Stamp and few others...

 

[Gator97]

There was a knifemeaker back in the 1930's and 40's who used to do demonstrations of his knives buy hammering, yes, hammering them through things like buggy axles. His name was Frank Richtig, and I bet there were people who hated him, though he didn't wear a hockey mask.

I'm glad you mentioned him I forgot about that and the interesting thing is that Bob Kramer, very well known and respected maker spent literally years trying to replicate his(Richtig's) results.
Besides breaking numerous knives of his own, he also managed to get one or two blades from the collector for replicating the original hammering test. I think the condition was that he couldn't break the knife though.

And today, if you go to his website he has the photo to prove it Right on the home page. Which is essentially the same test, cutting a steel bolt.

And the guy doesn't make combat knives, he's specialty is kitchen knives and backlog is few years...

 

[dl351]

I'd address every point raised, but I don't have time right now. Here are a few, though.

I've been over on knifetests.com long before posting anything on this thread.

I don't base my conclusions on "authority." Reputations get built based on consumers buying and using products. When the bulk of the consumers over 30 years have nothing but good to say about any company, it's safe to say they make good products.

There are lots of scientific conclusions that have been accepted by legitimate data.

The rational behind the .25 in thick blade is to make the knife stronger, which it does. There are, however, other factors that go into knife designs. A hallow grind makes for less cross sectional area than a similar flat saber grind. Strength gets sacrificed for cutting ability in that case. Another example is that Justin Gingrich changed his earlier RD series knives from saber grinds to full flat grinds because customer requests had shown full flat grinds were more popular. Sure, they're not as laterally strong, but the majority of his customers accepted that. The knife would be less strong if it were thinner, too.

I never said anyone has to agree with my change in opinion on knife selection criteria. I just think it would be of greater value for those new to knives to dismiss knives that don't seem indestructible.

Well, I'm getting tired of typing and have much more important matters to attend to, so off I go. Oh, and please don't mock my intelligence, I haven't mocked yours.

 

[dl351]

Hey, Gator, that link is quite interesting. I'll have to look into it more later. Have you seen some of the steels the Japanese are making? SOG has a couple handmade knives from Japan that, if the specs are true, are quite impressive.

Oh, let me clarify something. I don't have any problem with knives being able to stand up to absurd amounts of abuse. I just don't think that should always be a determining factor for knife purchases.

Where in the Bay are you from? I'm from the East Bay, but down south for school.

 

[Lycosa]

Sooo, It's all True about those Busse knives??

 

[Gator97]

I'd address every point raised, but I don't have time right now.

Thought so

I don't base my conclusions on "authority."

You cited that authority pretty clearly. If I misread my bad, could you please clarify on what then?

Reputations get built based on consumers buying and using products. When the bulk of the consumers over 30 years have nothing but good to say about any company, it's safe to say they make good products.

Who are we talking about?

There are lots of scientific conclusions that have been accepted by legitimate data.

I am really interested and like I said willing to pay reasonable amount of money for knife related scientific articles. So, do you have any sources to point me to?

The rational behind the .25 in thick blade is to make the knife stronger, which it does.

Thanks, but that is/was obvious. The reason I asked was that you completely disregard strength and mention only cutting performance, which is also very obviously better with thin blades. So, if that is the criteria then thick knives have no place. If strength comes into the picture then it is absolutely valid to test for strength and do destruction testing. Which method is used for that is another matter.

I never said anyone has to agree with my change in opinion on knife selection criteria. I just think it would be of greater value for those new to knives to dismiss knives that don't seem indestructible.

In original wording you did sound a lot harsher than this and a lot more authoritative as well. Including general comments about n00bs and what's good for community and what not.

Well, I'm getting tired of typing and have much more important matters to attend to, so off I go.

I'm sure, and I wish you god luck.

Oh, and please don't mock my intelligence, I haven't mocked yours.

That clearly was not my intention, if anything, I was ironical about authoritative statements about noobs and goods for community. Which is quite insulting the intelligence of those noobs btw...
Anyway, if you tell me exactly what do you consider in my posts as mocking your intelligence I'll refrain from repeating and publicly apologize again.

 

[dl351]

Thought so

Here's the deal. I have three rather difficult final exams this week, one being this afternoon. While I don't even think I should be spending time writing this post, I don't have the time right now to address every concern of yours, period. I'm not trying to steer away from your questions or make excuses. I simply don't have the time right now. Debating knife destruction is just not a top priority given the looming final exams.

 

[Gator97]

Agreed. Thanks in advance.
Based on your intensive posting this weekend I assumed you had some time. Good luck with the exams btw

Have you seen some of the steels the Japanese are making?

I do have around 40 kitchen knives by now made from Aogami I, Aogami II, ZDP-189 and VG-10 steels specs and(all) reviews for some are here.

I never chopped steel bars or even bones with then, except for the debas which are designed for chopping bones. As such, I can't comment on that aspect, but light cutting, sharpening etc, I think I have pretty good idea what they can do for my use.

 

[Guyon]

dl351, good luck on those exams. Don't worry. The BFC PD is holding down the fort here.

 

[dl351]

Sigh. Well, one final down, two more to go. Back to the Blade Forums!

Ok, so Gator, here are some of my responses in order of what you said. Oh, I also think we are just misunderstanding each other, too, so I'll try to convey my thoughts more clearly.

About the flaws in the conclusions; the conclusions themselves are what I see flaws in. I recognize that some knives are stronger than others. The conflict I see is that now, as in today, I looked over a thread on knifetests.com (and again, I've looked at that site long ago, too) and a lot of people were dismissing a lot of very good knives because they were expensive and the Cold Steel GI Tanto is tough. The way I see it, and you may not see it the same, is that these individuals have concluded that this knife, made from 1055 spring tempered steel, is a better knife than many more expensive knives simply because it can stand up to a beating. Perhaps I shouldn't say this is "bad" for the knife community, but they're going to miss out on some very good knives if they stay in the mindset of going after spring tempered knives. However, I guess if they're happy with those cheaper knives, good for them. That doesn't mean the more costly knives are crap, though.

Um, in the interest of time and more sleep tonight than last night, I'm going to respond to the rest of the comments/questions the best I can based on what comments I can remember. The existing scientific data I refer to is not specific to knives, but materials. I should have clarified that earlier. To build on that, destructive tests have been done to find how physical characteristics such as radius, sharp corners, and holes cut into materials affect failure points. These methods of analysis can be applied to knife designs. Even further beyond that, there are finite element analysis software programs that are very powerful. What they can do is show where a part will fail under specific loads/impacts. A solid model is made in the program, a material is specified, and loads are applied to see where and when the part will fail. As long as the operator knows what they are doing, programs like these can be quite accurate and nothing would even need to be broken! I do recognize, however, that tests do need to be done to verify calculations. The tricky part there is making sure the verification process matches the calculations.

Oh, back to authority again. I think I wasn't very clear, so I'll try again. When purchasing any knife, I seek knowledge from makers and "followers." For example, I have SOG, Cold Steel, KaBar Becker, Chris Reeve, Swamp Rat, Scrap Yard, and Spyderco knives. I didn't blindly take all those manufacturers words as the authoritative end all for my decisions to purchase their knives. I also did a little background research to see what others thought of their knives. Many of those manufacturers have long reputations for making quality products that can be depended on. For those reputations to be dismissed as easily as some have done, doesn't sit well with me. It seems that knife companies that make crap don't last very long in a group like us knife nuts here. That is why I choose not to disregard long standing reputations over a few broken knives. I guess in the end, we're all allowed to decide what to purchase, though.

Oh, and I didn't choose to join any "club," either. I, like many on both sides of these discussions, chose on my own, to reach the conclusions that I have. I guess if people sharing similar opinions is "the club," then maybe I unknowingly joined it. Conversely, the same can be said for the other side, too.

As for the Cutco comment, I didn't explicitly say it, but quantity sold alone doesn't determine product quality either. If that were true, Mercedes, Lexus, BMW, Lamborghini and other luxury cars could be deemed inferior. I think what I'm trying to say is that there are several factors that should take part in knife (product) selection.

Anyway, I'm spent for the night and need some sleep so I can study all day again tomorrow. I'll probably check this in the morning only to see my post picked apart, but oh well. I'll probably just smack my forehead and think, "that's not the point I was trying to make!" I'll probably only have myself to blame. Good night fellas.

 

[ishiyumisan]

Smarter people than myself could do the analysis. It's not some abstract thing.

λ variable operate in a region between order and either complete randomness or chaos, where the complexity is maximal.
Which means that if I can achieve something very sophisticated and because the complexity just by few people can get it, I still have a major variable......!!!

 

[MOG(V)]

A few decades ago, Tuborg beer, if I'm not mistaken, used to advertise their (full) bottles as capable of withstanding a bar fight.

And what else would you use, since carrying knives is forbidden everywhere in Europe?