Knives and where they are made

The free market place is a very harsh task-master because the less efficient producer will be eliminated (hopefully to the benefit of the consumer). This free market concept is very harsh but it forces one to be more efficient than if it were not so. It has created economic strategies like socialism and communism.

The world is incredibly global and all major world companies, and many smaller ones also, have markets in all the major countries.
 
Also depends on what you're looking for.

Look, for some reason America makes great knives. (And hand tools in general. Notice the American made tools locked up behind glass the next time you stop into a Home Depot or Lowe's.)

The Italians make great suits and cars, the Germans with their optics - Zeiss, Leica - and cars; obviously I could go on. It's a big topic.

American companies are going to continue making knives in Asia because Asian labor is so much cheaper than American labor and most folks don't care if their pocket knife is made in USA or Taiwan. And most folks won't pay $100.00 for an American made pocketknife. They'll admire it, they'll ooh and aah over it, but they'll move on to something ersatz for $29.00 made in Asia.

We on BF are simply not most folks when it comes to knives, and I think that on this issue we have to look at this issue through the eyes of most folks.

I don't have an issue with American knife companies manufacturing in Asia if they have to do it because the market is dictating it. Fact is that Asian labor is far, far cheaper than American labor. They are not turning out as fine a finished product but it's serviceable and that's enough for most.

The best knives and best models will by and large continue to be made in the USA.

Do you want to buy a Ferrari that's made in China?
 
Joe Dirt said:
Your point is exactly why I don't like the way things are going.

It is all about instant gratification. The world has simply not gone through what we have to get the stuff we have. Point being, that after a while the Indian programmer will get sick and tired of the BS and then him and everyone else will have an uprising and demand more pay or more vacation. Then after a while we're back to square one.

I'm just amazed that instead of a company biting the bullet they sell out.

If I were a company like Buck for example: I would rather have shut down than put up a factory in China.

We Americans are letting companies sell jobs out from under us because communist China will work people for less. How is that good? Families in China or India or whatever are getting shafted too. To them it may be good for the time being but not in the long run.

I guess I'll continue to be old school. I just don't understand why any of this would be good for America or the people buying the products. People need to demand more quality instead of cheapness.

-You can have fast, and good, but it will not be done cheap.
-You can have good and cheap but it will not be done fast.
-You can have fast and cheap but it will not be done good.
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What does this post have to do anything with this statement ...

Joe Dirt said:
Understand that (as stated before) this thread is not a bash on anything non-American. I just wondered what you all think about knives made in Japan, or Taiwan, or wherever.
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Seems like this is turning into a political thread instead of a knife thread to me.
 
kylekim said:
What does this post have to do anything with this statement ...
Seems like this is turning into a political thread instead of a knife thread to me.
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Nit pick nit pick nit pick......

I can't stop it from going one way or another. It's mainly about knives and has political content.

This place is a discussion forum. People post things and other people reply to them. I replied to someone who posted above me.

Do you have anything to add to the topic or are you here simply to critique it?
 
This thread is about knives AND about politics. America is a huge consumer of goods, and as such is often missing the boat when it comes to making the world a better place. When human rights issues are addressed, and people in China are no longer destroyed in political prisons, only then should we buy their products. Money is so important to the Chinese economy right now, we can force democracy to expand to China in a peaceful and productive way, by refusing to buy anything from them till they clean up their act!! I can't feel good about owning a knife that was made by exploiting someones life and health. Prove to me it wasn't, and I'll buy it!!
Whatta rant:mad: Buy from Queen, and bring a little prosperity to Titusville PA, a beautiful little town that needs its jobs:D
 
Believe it or not, the conditions over there, they are not great, but they are not as bad and "backward" as some people think. I do know quite a few people from china. True, they do not have the liberties, or allot of the laws protecting them, but the companies that are paying them, are paying them good money compared to what many internal compnaies there are paying them (please do not get me wrong, I am not justifying, nor condoning them by any means).

It is very sad about the political prisons, there are some horrible things going on there also!
 
Out of 23 knives (14 custom and 9 production) only 2 are made overseas - a Spyderco Salt 1 and a Victorinox SAK. When possible, I prefer USA. :)
 
Lets face it companies are in this for profit. If you don't turn a profit you stock will not go up, if your stock does not go up you cannot borrow to expand and then you die. Companies are focused on making money pure and simple. They retain those aspects of the business that set them apartfrom others (core competencies) and outsource those aspects that are universal. The trick to surviving is to identify those areas tha make you different from your competion and making the most of them. Steven
 
I wonder if the companies (like Benchmade, Spyderco, CRKT etc.) are into doing business overseas because they NEED to or because they want MORE MONEY?

Like could Spyderco still survive and make a nice living by making everything in the USA, or would they go out of business if they didn't have stuff made in China or Japan? My guess is they would do just fine.

Unless a business NEEDS to do it to stay afloat I think it's wrong. I really doubt Benchmade needed to have their red line made in Taiwain. I think they did it purely to make MORE money on each knife sold.

If it's true........it's sad.
 
For some I think it is more about loyalty. Spyderco could probably fair ok without the knives from China and maybe even Japan by just making them here but they have developed friendships and contacts as well as relationships on many levels since the early days of the companies' founding. Why should they consider even changing anything? What they are doing works. If someone doesn't like the Japanese or China made product they offer they have the option to buy one from the Golden USA plant. To me that is no different than the other companies offering stuff from different places in the world.



STR
 
My last post on this thread was very political, this one is about the knives. Import knives are improving all the time. "Emerging" nations are learning what Americans prefer, and duplicating it to the best of their abilities. There are some cheap Chinese knives around that emulate the traditional old Case, Cattaraugus, Empire, New York etc. knives of decades ago. They have real bone handles. They use 440c steel in the blades. They sell for 15-20 bucks! They theoretically should serve very well, but the aesthetics leave something to be desired. They are not art, but cartoons, and I prefer art in my knives!!!
 
It is important to look at the company itself, perhaps more so than where it's products are made. Does it really care about the quality of it's products and the wellfare of it's customers. Is it really concerned with how it is effecting it's employees (wherever they are), the community, the nation, the world? Or is it just about $$$$.
I will support a company with HEART that cares about more than $$$ no matter where it makes it's products any day over one that is out to max their profits at any cost and makes their products in the U.S.
The corporations are getting too big and the world too small to just look at where they product their products.
 
Joe Dirt said:
I wonder if the companies (like Benchmade, Spyderco, CRKT etc.) are into doing business overseas because they NEED to or because they want MORE MONEY?

Like could Spyderco still survive and make a nice living by making everything in the USA, or would they go out of business if they didn't have stuff made in China or Japan? My guess is they would do just fine.

Unless a business NEEDS to do it to stay afloat I think it's wrong. I really doubt Benchmade needed to have their red line made in Taiwain. I think they did it purely to make MORE money on each knife sold.

If it's true........it's sad.
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Only the manufacturers can answer this. But it probably makes a lot more sense to have the knife made where it's most cost effective.

I mean, why buy the steel from, let's say Japan (VG-10), have it shipped over here and pay for the tooling/machines to make the blade shape if it's easier to just have them do that part also in the manufacturing process?

Perhaps certain lines (usually the cheaper/price conscious) can be made here but at a higher cost. As a consumer, are you really willing to pay that extra amount for that knife? It'll probably blur the price line between a 440C knife and a 154CM knife which kind of kills the point of having a price value line.

Who knows.
 
STR said:
For some I think it is more about loyalty. Spyderco could probably fair ok without the knives from China and maybe even Japan by just making them here but they have developed friendships and contacts as well as relationships on many levels since the early days of the companies' founding. Why should they consider even changing anything? What they are doing works. If someone doesn't like the Japanese or China made product they offer they have the option to buy one from the Golden USA plant. To me that is no different than the other companies offering stuff from different places in the world.



STR
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Loyalty?

So do you mean that companies like Spyderco or Benchmade are loyal to their friends in China/Taiwan because they developed those relationships before workers in America?

I don't understand.


kylekim said:
Only the manufacturers can answer this. But it probably makes a lot more sense to have the knife made where it's most cost effective.

I mean, why buy the steel from, let's say Japan (VG-10), have it shipped over here and pay for the tooling/machines to make the blade shape if it's easier to just have them do that part also in the manufacturing process?

Perhaps certain lines (usually the cheaper/price conscious) can be made here but at a higher cost. As a consumer, are you really willing to pay that extra amount for that knife? It'll probably blur the price line between a 440C knife and a 154CM knife which kind of kills the point of having a price value line.

Who knows.
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Why use VG-10 and import it? Use american steel and don't import anything.

Yes, as a consumer I'll pay more money for a USA made product that is made well. I will not pay more money for a USA made product that is made like crap vs. a better made foreign counter part. Right now GM/Ford vs Honda/Toyota come to mind.

Why does there need to be a value line? Let the cheap knock offs keep making junky knives and then people will see why they should pay a little more for the American counter part.

I realize everyone is not going to buy knives like we do but come on, people don't buy Benchmade Red Class knives in stores. They buy them at a knife store or online. Same thing with Spyderco's Byrd brand. I could see it might make a difference if people were walking into Lowes and not buying Spyderco or Benchmade but that's not the case.

When I go into a Walmart I don't see any goofy off brands in the knife case. I see what used to be American made knives that are now made in Taiwain and some in the USA. Why?

If Walmart sold junk brands people would soon realize the need to step up a bit.
 
I vaquely recall reading that when Sal was first trying to get things going that some in Japan were more amiable and ready to work with him over some of the USA based ones. This forms loyaties that last.

STR
 
The basic thing (and perhaps the only one!) that matters for knife companies (and every company) is profit. I think this is a standard. I don't think that quality of "made in Taiwan" Benchmade knives is lower than "made in USA" Benchmade knives. These companies try to keep the quality in high levels whereever their products are made. They control the process in the same way. I don't think that an American can use a screwdriver better than a Chinese. But Benchmade has to pay the American 20 times more than the Chinese for the same work! Just business! Don't drink labels...;)
The bad for me is when companies try to exploitate the human labour. I've read somewhere that children in Pakistan work 12 hours per day for making balls for adidas (not sure for the brand) and is not permitted for them to go to toilete more than two times and the money they take are nothing. I don't like this...
 
Dimit78 said:
I don't think that quality of "made in Taiwan" Benchmade knives is lower than "made in USA" Benchmade knives.
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I'm not sure I can agree with this.

At least not yet.
 
puukkoman said:
The can of worms has been opened...
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I disagree. We're having a nice adult conversation here and everyone is behaving very well.

Don't spit in the fresh water like that man. :D
 
Hi,

You probably won't find too many manufacturers jumping in here, but it would be beneficial if they did. The more you understand, IMO, the more inteiligent your choices will be.

As has been mentioned, money does play an important role, but it is not necessarily money in profit, but money in cost to the ELUs.

The major differences in money per country is the value of their money compared to the US dollar. Wages in Japan are as high or higher than in the US, as are their standards. Japanese products do not costs less . To say "Asia" is like saying the "Western Hemisphere". The differences between countries in Asia are vast.

The Chinese Yuen is worth about 20% of the US dollar (or the Japanese Yen). This means that it costs about 20% as much to make a knife in China as it does in the US. Japanese outsourcing to China is as big a problem there as here.

Most Americans, unless theyre "knife educated" cannot see the difference between knives at $20 vs $100.

"Is the $100 knife worth 5 times more than the $20 knife?" is the most asked question.

"I can buy 5 and throw them away and still come out ahead".

Most Americans (and probably most buyers worldwide) will try to purchase for as little cost as they possibly can. This means that if there is a lower price available, it will generally sell more. Wal-Mart's growth is testimonial to that concept.

Spyderco makes many knives in Seki-City Japan. We originally went there for quality, not price. I will admit, the price was an advantage 25 years ago, but not now. We also charged much less for our knives 25 years ago.

As the market swings to the lower prices, the higher priced models become lower volume pieces.

In aswer to the question; "is it for survival, or or more profit?".

That depends on the individual company. I cannot speak for other companies.

Spyderco has been making knives in Seki with the same makers since we began making knives in 1981.

Spyderco also makes knives in the USA (in Golden).

Spyderco makes a few models in Taiwan.

Spyderco began making knives in China to compete with all of the other lower priced knives being made in China, by American companies. We chose to use another brand name. byrd.

Spyderco makes a few models in Italy.

For us, we find all five are necessary. The reasons differ.

sal
 
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