Knives and where they are made

[orthogonal1]

Engineers do the work as required (as most occupations). Also, to become a good engineer, you need the developement (to work up to the point via lesser positions).

If there is no industry to support the learning (school is only a beginning), there will be no professional developement to achieve the good engineering needed. Look at a new technology to see the process, such as the space program.

If the majority of the junior, learning positions are created over-seas, the U.S. will loose out. We have this occurring now. I hear the call for more technological, engineering degrees; but when a person graduates, finding a position that will give the experience needed to become a professional engineer is very difficult as few companies will invest the money and time. (They want the rquired experience now).

But all that is another issue.

But heh, maybe we should start giving our kids the aspiration to do menial labor as there seems to be a large market in that area based upon arguements in the current immagration debate (insourcing labor).

 

[DGG]

If it is a quality piece it shouldn't much matter these days. The Byrd knives from Spyderco made in China are quite nice and a lot of bang for the bucks spent. Then again the made in the USA Kershaw knives like the Vapor and the Storm and Storm II are extremely well made values in the knife world.

It doesn't bother me much where on earth things are made but I do still love to have one or two that I carry that say proudly, "made in the USA" on them. I won't be too concerned about the stamp on things until things start showing up stamped, " Made on Mars" or "Lunar Made" or some such $hit! Then I may have a problem if I'm still around when businesses start taking work 'off world'.


STR

You mean "Made in America" by robotic machine tools!

 

[DGG]

Oh, and allot of the responsibility of the "chaep" knives lies on those who have commissioned others to make them!'

Just like "low-bidders" (winning) on goverment contracts, they want to save money! So they go with the cheapest!!

Subject to strict specifications and inspections I might add. It is wrong to link lowest bid to "junk". The winning organization might just be "less greedy" than the competition, or have methods that increase their productivity resulting in lower unit cost.

 

[DGG]

This is true sometimes (I have seem some junk from there in the past)! Seki, the "solingen" of Japan does a pretty good job. But there are many other countries that make quality knives also. Ive noticed allot of knives coming out of china are getting better now, so watch out (this should be interesting)! Pakistan still has allot of ground to catch up on, but there seems to be a "slight" improvement on their part also.

True, it would take thousands, upon thousands? To make the companies take notice, but I do understand what you are saying. When I was much younger many things were made here, now? The majority isnt!

I wonder who makes the SAK's? I know the Swiss take credit but this could just be marketing hype. I didn't see lots of factories when I was over there (lots of banks though and they seem to be doing okay).

 

[DGG]

Lets face it companies are in this for profit. If you don't turn a profit you stock will not go up, if your stock does not go up you cannot borrow to expand and then you die. Companies are focused on making money pure and simple. They retain those aspects of the business that set them apartfrom others (core competencies) and outsource those aspects that are universal. The trick to surviving is to identify those areas tha make you different from your competion and making the most of them. Steven

Good post. But you forgot to tell us where we can buy some Spyderco and Benchmade stock. I can't find any to buy.

FYI - According to the Dept. of Labor. the vast majority of companies in the US are small, family owned, just trying to get by.

 

[DGG]

The can of worms has been opened...

What's wrong with that? Civil discussion is the basis of our society. It is good to debate and argue positions in an intelligent manner, unless of course you already have all the answers in which case it is probably boring.

 

[DGG]

Hmmm. Guess I misunderstood your first post. As for this post, you are both right and wrong. Labor unions have bankrupted GM. GM spends more on entitlements than they do on making cars. However, without some level of protectionism, we'll loose a lot more than just manufacturing. Take, for example, a high tech company like Intel. Intel has manufacturing facilities all over the world. Nothing new there. However, the trend in the last couple of years is to develop design facilities in India, China, and other Asian countries where an engineer with a master's degree earns less than a factory worker in Detroit. Even Andy Grove, long-time CEO of Intel, has said that the government must take steps to prevent this trend by developing programs to keep engineering jobs in this country. If we loose our engineers (because there are no jobs for them), we loose our ability to innovate. At that point, we'll just loose. And don't say that American engineers just have to be better. To be better, they'd need superior intelligence. Must be some of that nationalism creeping out in your argument. :jerkit:

Wrong again!

The reason that the car manufacturers are in trouble is because folks are using their free economic choices to buy products that they perceive as having more value (more bang for the buck). In many consumer surveys the US cars come out second in many important aspects, quality, reliability, fuel economy, and price. This is what is causing their market share to decline, not the cost of their group insurance. How much of a burden is the union to innovation is hard to tell but many other competing countries have a more strict and rigid set of labor laws than we do in the US.

 

[rev_jch]

DGG,
actually you are mistaken. The swiss do make their knives, and they are very proud of it. I take it you've never seen the factory in Ibach then?

And, I did not say "junk", so I do not know where you got that from? However, I will say some (if not more of it) is junk! I was in the Air Force, active duty, for 8 years (88-96, disabled veteran desert shield/storm) and I have had allot of experience with goverment equipment! It is made to work, be easily replaceable, but does not always work well. It goes to the lowest bidder, who is out to make money! That's why they fight over contracts! I know this as my sister is a goverment contract negotiator, and has been for many years. These civilian contractors will fumble numbers and try to rip off the goverment. Such as changing purchase prices after contracts have been agreed on. It happens allot!

The C17A, I remember when it first came out in 91, had all kinds of problems. It was suppose to be capable of the same landing space as a C-130, but it had problems. Of course many of those problems were eventually worked out. Quite a few of us, were afraid to fly on these when they first were out there. I remember one of those problems were rivets popping out under flight stress.

 

[oldrifleman]

Ok lets be a little careful here about stating that US companies intentionally sell sub-standard stuff to the governement. The gentleman spoke about his experience with the C17. I can tell you that the company NEVER EVER intentionally allowed an unsafe airplane out the door! I have worked on both sides the government procurement issue. The company is held to the letter of the contract and the government is constantly changing it to get what they want. both sides want the same thing. Yes there have been some big examples of company misdeeds, but the majority of the time both side play well in the sandbox. With a major system (such as large airplanes) the design and test period last years. during this time issues are found (real life isn't the same as percieved) and the customer decides if they can live with them.
Now back to topic, I really appreciated the comment be Mr Glesser! He put it exactly right about the balance required to maintain a healthy company. I may not own any of his knives (never got into the hole thing) but I do believe that his company represents one of the best in the industry. Steven

 

[Joe Dirt]

Off subject a bit now are we not?

 

[gutsy]

most if not all of my knives claim to be 100% made in usa. emerson knives , ranger knives and becker. i know for dang sure justin gingrich at ranger knives makes them himself but the others ........who knows for sure . pretty sure about all three but ranger really stands out as a true american company imho. cant stand foriegn crap myself as far as knives go but firearms are a diferent story. . i really like my glocks and hk pistols.!

 

[rev_jch]

Well, unfortunately, they do! Not all, but it happens allot!!
As far as the C17A, that's another matter.

It does still comes down to the "lowest bidder", and making money. They do not do it for "charitable" purposes.

wow....this subject has really turned into some "interesting" avenues!

 

[ahgar]

returning to the original question, I have an odd attitude regarding country of manufacture. I have no problem with crkt being made in taiwan because they have always been made overseas. Now I do have a problem with american companies that ship production overseas ie- Buck,Gerber,camillus. I know that they are trying to hit a certain price point and I appreciate that but it just seems wrong to pick up a buck and see in small print china. It will probably kill me to see a made in china uncle henry or old timer. well that's my view on the subject. ahgar

To make matters worse sometime back someone posted a review of a china made buck and apparently it was a pretty good knife.

 

[rifon2]

...providing the most value for a fair price, has the best long term survival, but lower short term return.

sal

Yes, value for money.

And it's clear that it's your philosophy because it's expressed in your company's products and their pricing...it's expressed in the entire way you run your business.

And many thanks to you for that.:thumbup:

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P.S. As for my post about businesses being in business to make money - and wanting to make more money - I'm not referring to making more money at any cost. I'm reminded of a famous quote used in the financial markets, but that also applies here:>>

"The bulls make money, the bears make money, but
the pigs get slaughtered."

And rightly so, IMHO.

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[fudo]

I don't buy anything from France or China if I have a choice. On the principal that the friend of my enemy is my enemy.

 

[Sal Glesser]

Hi Fudo,

That's a very interesting "twist" on politics & finances. Probably not a good topic of discussion for this thread, but there are probably more than a few that let the "friend or foe" concept influence their purchases.

sal

 

[epoluo]

if it is high quality,i will buy it no matter where it is made

 

[Knife Outlet]

I think one of the problems is that people on Blade Forums may lose sight of the fact that most knife consumers are not the people on Blade Forums and most have little knife knowledge. They buy a knife that appeals to them for whatever reason. It might be the brand or the appearance or any number of other things. If two knives look about the same and one is less expensive, they will buy the less expensive one.

As an example, the sales of Schrade knives has gone through the roof since Schrade closed its doors and Taylor began importing them from China. Sales of Schrade knives in units is probably 20 or 30 times what it was when Schrade was open. Customers get a brand name they recognize at a price that makes sense to them. That goes to show you how important price is and how unimportant country of origin is to the consumer looking at the lower priced end of the market. The strength of that brand name allows Taylor to have prices that are really pretty high for Chinese made folders of that type. It was certainly a great business move for Taylor to buy the Schrade name. I think it is already as strong as the Smith and Wesson name for them.

The lower end of the market is bigger than the higher end of it and will get bigger and bigger while the higher end gets smaller and smaller.

Personally I hate it but I understand that it is future. The U.S. is figuring out how to become a third world country while China has figured out how to become a first world country. We are rushing headlong to turn over all of our manufacturing to our largest competitor. The Japanese are doing the same thing and they don't really have anything else to sell to the world other than manufactured goods. It isn't very pretty. Perhaps in the distant future the U.S. can take some manufacturing from China and sell it back to the Chinese.

 

[Hair]

Some random thoughts:

I love America. I also love Germany, Italy, Japan, Sweden etc etc etc... I love *good* good people, and good people can come from any country. I also love good knives, and good knives can come from any country.

The governments in countries such as China may be different from ours, and they may even be "evil", but the last time I checked, American polititians are rarely saints either.

Chinese people have to eat too. In fact, they probably need more help in that area.

If you want to really help people, donate money to needy organizations and people. If you want to help only Americans, donate money to American interests, or American homeless people.

If you want to support a business that deserves it and needs it, buy from a small or new knife-maker, not an already rich company.

American companies and workers make a lot of money off of foreign-made knives. THAT'S WHY THEY DO IT!

If you only want to buy from companies with integrity that put all of their passion into their work instead of trying to pump out as many junk knives as possible, then you can buy knives made in America, Japan, Germany, Sweden, and probably countless other countries. Knives are found all over the world. Does buying a Queen because it is American make you feel like you have done a good deed? Helped your country? Is buying a traditional Finnish knife from an unknown a talented knife-maker a bad deed?

For me, the knife itself and the knife-maker or company itself is what matters. Not the nation lines they happen to be within. There are good people and good companies in every country, and also bad ones.

If you do not like Chinese (or whatever) knives because they are all about the bottom line and lowering costs to increase profit, then you should apply the same standard to crap made ine very country, including American crap.

If you will not buy outsourced knives because they send American jobs to other countries, then you should starting caring about people that happen to have been born in other countries. They need jobs just like Americans. You should also keep in mind why companies outsource jobs the next time you ask for a raise, or buy a cheaper product to save a few bucks. Not buying Chinese doesn't mean you aren't part of the problem. Also keep in mind that American companies try to hit a lower price point by going overseas to meet American demand for a cheaper product.

It is your money, so spend it how you'd like. If you want to support a local family-owned store instead of a Wal*Mart, that's cool. If you want to support American companies instead of ones that use foreign parts or labor, so be it. Just keep in mind that people who work for Wal*Mart or live in China are still people. If you really want to help, donate money to people that really need it. If you only want Americans to be helped, then donate money to needy Americans. A family that had enough money to get a business off the ground needs a lot less help than I do!

 

[waynorth]

Boycotting goods from countries that abuse their people exerts enormous pressure for them to change their ways! Donate money to organizations that help, as long as you are sure the help will get there, but don't help the governments get fat off exploitation!!