-
The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is available! Price is $250 ea (shipped within CONUS).
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/
Knives and where they are made
- Thread starter Joe Dirt
- Start date
oldrifleman
Platinum Member
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2006
- Messages
- 2,093
Waynorth, That works as long as the people buying have a clue where something is made. I think a big part of this thread is that well known companies are having things made overseas. Most consumers see the name, the price, the features, the looks (not neccesarily in that order) and maybe look at where it is made later. If the knife said it was made by the "sweat of the poor kids brow" knife company, that might catch their eye, that is not one of the big selling issues for the run of the mill knife buyer. Steven
waynorth
Dealer / Materials Provider
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2005
- Messages
- 33,377
Good point, Steven. I moved up to Canada a while back (married a beautiful Canadian gal) and it's easier here because the country of manufacture is required to be more obviously marked on goods. But there is a problem with consumers being ignorant, or uncaring about the origin of goods. Consumers in fact have the ultimate power over all business. It's sad and a bit frustrating that it is so poorly wielded. A little thought before spending those hard earned bucks can contribute to a better planet, or conversely, fuel terror and mayhem. Look at diamonds.
But we're supposed to be looking at knives in this thread, and that's what I'm about to do; arrange a display for the Oregon Knife show! Of good old (some quite old) American made Harness Jacks! Hope to see some of you readers and posters there! Eugene, Oregon, April 8-9
By the way, you sure opened a can of worms here Joe Dirt!
But we're supposed to be looking at knives in this thread, and that's what I'm about to do; arrange a display for the Oregon Knife show! Of good old (some quite old) American made Harness Jacks! Hope to see some of you readers and posters there! Eugene, Oregon, April 8-9
By the way, you sure opened a can of worms here Joe Dirt!
I am a Chinese people and i am not good at english.But after reading all words,I think i have to say something.yes China is a communist country and now it is not rich.Many people are poor.80% of chinese people have no personnal computer.Lots of people cannot surf the internet.The salary is low because China now is poor.But situation is changing and my homeland is try her best to develop the ecnomics.Our country is doing best to give her people a good life.We cannt go into the prison as long as we dont break the law.of course there are bad policemen .But most of them are good and more and more policemen had gone to college school.
On the other side ,not all the products made in china means junk.Many comanies belongs to nation are lack of the power of competition.now government is reforming the comanies and make them private comany and push them to marker to compete with other companies.They will get mutualas time going.Now i have the same idea that product made in china is low quality .But i believe that some day the product made in china may means high quality.
By the way ,i am not protecting our country .i just hope you friends get to know our country CHINA.If what i said offend you ,please forgive me .If somebody want to know something about china,please contact me .I believe you will love my homeland.
Thanks.
Esav Benyamin
MidniteSuperMod
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2000
- Messages
- 90,915
This is the best comment in the entire thread. The more participation in the global marketplace, the more convergence of interests.AmadeusM said:
It isn't easy, because the participants are always trying for an extra advantage, to cover for perceived or actual disadvantages. We didn't all start off the same, but we are all coming to understand the same economic imperatives.
Could we ever have walled off a part of the world and refused to allow them to succeed alongside us? Today, Africa and the Arab/Muslim areas have effectively walled themselves off.
Not pretty. What if Russia or China were in that situation? They were, until recently. Not conducive to anyone's economic health, to have failed states and collapsed economies around.
I'd like to teach the world to sing
In perfect harmony
I'd like to hold it in my arms and keep it company
I'd like to see the world for once
All standing hand in hand
And hear them echo through the hills "Ah, peace throughout the land"
-- The New Seekers
- Joined
- Aug 27, 1999
- Messages
- 4,531
You personally, No. However the French government has done everything in it's power to hinder US efforts diplomatically and militarily to stifle terrorist activities. In large part in back door econ deals. I my OPINION France has not been a friend to the US since 1945, when it was convenient for them to be our friends. I understand that not everyone in the country feels this way. Thats fine. I'm not interested in supporting countries that choose to give aid and comfort to people who want to kill me and my family for money. I'm just not willing to feed friends of my enemies. This is America, everyone is entitled to their opinion.But that's the way I spend my money.dantzk8 said:
Gringogunsmith
BANNED
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2006
- Messages
- 491
If the original manufacturer is in an allied contry, like Japan, Germany,UK.... OK.STR said:
When you outsource to our biggest enemy on the planet( China) and they pay their taxes for their govt.to make weapons that will eventually be used against us.. It aint cool.
It's NOT all about profit.. although the mentality over here is just that.
Most of my knives will be coming from some backyard shop anvils in "somewhere" USA.. :thumbup:
Sal Glesser
Moderator
- Joined
- Dec 27, 1998
- Messages
- 11,711
Hi Epoluo,
I go to China and I've been very impressed with the capabilities in China and the people have always been very friendly.
I have seen companies in China that make very low cost products and I have seen companies in China that take a great deal of pride in what they produce.
We always go with the better quality companies. We also do a lot of teaching to our makers in China and have found them to be very responsive and interested to learn and improve. We have good relationships with them.
I think it is important to keep in mind that people and governments are not the same. Governments come and go, but it is the people of a country that are going to be around for a long time and make up the heart and spirit of a country.
I travel quite a bit, all over the world, and I have found that people in general try hard to be good.
sal
I go to China and I've been very impressed with the capabilities in China and the people have always been very friendly.
I have seen companies in China that make very low cost products and I have seen companies in China that take a great deal of pride in what they produce.
We always go with the better quality companies. We also do a lot of teaching to our makers in China and have found them to be very responsive and interested to learn and improve. We have good relationships with them.
I think it is important to keep in mind that people and governments are not the same. Governments come and go, but it is the people of a country that are going to be around for a long time and make up the heart and spirit of a country.
I travel quite a bit, all over the world, and I have found that people in general try hard to be good.
sal
Better than YOU'RESJoe Dirt said:
(just kidding ya)I agree that Epoluo's post was very good. I also really liked Sal's.
Epoluo, please keep in mind that knife-buyers that boycott China are not doing so because they dislike Chinese people, or the country. They just dislike, and maybe even fear, the Chinese government.
I think the same can be said about *most* people that don't like America. They just don't like the politics of America's politicians. But there are also people that dislike Americans because of untrue and sweeping generalizations.
I've found that knife knuts in general are some of the most accepting people of other cultures. We all love knives, and while our taste, reasons, and nationality may be different, we all have knives in common and to a degree must stick together in the face of a lot of the anti-knife sentiment that is common across the globe.
Hair said:Better than YOU'RES
I agree that Epoluo's post was very good. I also really liked Sal's.
Epoluo, please keep in mind that knife-buyers that boycott China are not doing so because they dislike Chinese people, or the country. They just dislike, and maybe even fear, the Chinese government.
I think the same can be said about *most* people that don't like America. They just don't like the politics of America's politicians. But there are also people that dislike Americans because of untrue and sweeping generalizations.
I've found that knife knuts in general are some of the most accepting people of other cultures. We all love knives, and while our taste, reasons, and nationality may be different, we all have knives in common and to a degree must stick together in the face of a lot of the anti-knife sentiment that is common across the globe.
LOL.
I totally missed that. I was going to write "you're a good man" but I changed my mind and I didn't change it to your.
Sorry. I do know the difference
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2006
- Messages
- 2,171
Warning, long post, an essay practically.
Tossing in my dos centavos. Many on here who prefer traditional knives grew up with American names like Case, Old Timer, Buck, and with European names like Robert Klass Kissing Crane, Eye Brand, and others. People were more outdoor oriented either through vocation, recreation, or both. Knifelore and an appreciation of quality construction and materials were instilled in and handed down to each generation. Fit and finish on a knife were important. People recognized that a knife that walked and talked with a crisp dialect meant well made with attention to detail. They used to teach this to their children. Today the average adult consumer doesn't have a clue what "walk and talk" even means, let alone that it signifies anything. This is now a language only spoken by knife collectors and dinosaurs. I just bought a Case XX Sodbuster Jr. I like it. It is a nice knife. But, on opening it just kind of drags to full open, no walk and talk at all. Kind of sad and detracts from my enjoymant of an otherwise nice knife.
People once bought things to last and appreciated quality workmanship and materials. We repaired things that broke. We didn't just toss it in the trash and buy another one. Now, it is faster and cheaper to do so. For that matter try to find anyone who will fix basic things like toasters and fans, let alone be able to afford such repairs.
People, like those on this forum, who appreciated such marks of quality, who grew up with these almost sacred names in American and European cutlery feel sold out when a company like Schrade, highly respected for the steel and the grind of the blades, goes under and the name is sold and the manufacture moved to a country that doesn't have the same history with these knivese as we do. If Schrade had gone on to be made in Germany or Sweden or Italy then it wouldn't have been as harsh on those who grew up with these fine old blades, bit it still would have been hard.
It is like taking a national institution and outsourcing it, using the name to amass sales.
This selling of and trading on respected names has been going on for sometime. Popular Mechanics magazine has a long history with the American public. In past generations it was considered a solid source and a trusted name This may or may not have actually been true, but the perception was there. Somewhere over the last many years Popular Mechanics became a product label for things such as consumer bathroom products. Walmart and many others featured PM branded faucets, toilet tank valves, and such things at inexpensive prices. Trading on the general public's trust expecting quality from the name, they instead are selling lowgrade junk that needs frequent replacing, unless you do the sensible thing and buy a quality product the next time, swearing to never buy any PM marked crap again. Along with the disappointment comes a sour disillutionment. You think how could these guys put their names on something so crappy when for years you thought of them as an entity that appreciated and advocated quality. Seeing a vernerable institution such as Schrade go from being the company it was to an outsourced label is very hard to take. Old Timer, Uncle Henry, Schrade+ steel, these are American institutions. Making knives in China and putting these labels on them just seems vulgar. It is like selling a part of America.
Now, if knives are made from the beginning, or certain lines are set up to be made in places like Taiwan and China, then the blades are more judged on quality and workmanship appropriate to cost and intended use. These are not ingrained into our national conciousness as an American standard.
The current buyers of Schrades are buying the institution and the memory of the knives their fathers, grandfathers, uncles, etc, carried. A little of the American identity died with Schrade, a part of who we once were. Raising the label as it is currently exists can be seen as an insult. At the least they could have said Taylor Cutlery (or some other name), formerly Schrade, something like that so there was some distiction, a notation of the passing. As was noted in another post, Taylor is trading on the Schrade name and making a killing. The problem is, most of the people now buying those new Schrades are buying the name, but they don't have the knowledge or the appreciation things like "walk and talk." The general public today hasn't a clue what to look for or why. So to them, if it cuts and stays sharp for more than a few minutes it must be a great knife.
Epoluo, I appreciate the Chinese poeple, like many it is the government I don't care for. (I'm not always that fond of mine, but I love the Constitution and served my country for over a decade.) I'm a big fan of Lao Tzu and Chung Tzu. I think Chinese medicine has a lot to teach the west about healing, health, and diet. I think you made a good point, as did Sal, that the people there are only now learning and having the opportunity to learn about what we consider quality blades and knives. I do see quality and construction improving.
Sal, thanks for your involvement here. I don't have a Spyderco yet, but I may just have to fix that. There is something to be said for supporting those who support us. And who support a long term, fair practice, business model. Oh, wait, that's how we used to do business in this country once upon a time.
Others have pointed out that for various reasons America is loosing its capacity for design and manufacture. We are becoming extremely dependent on foreign products as we have been on foreign oil. Someone made the point over in the Wilderness Survival Forum that if imports suddenly stopped for some reason we would run out of new underwear for everyone in short order. The products we live by, the equipment and the parts to keep it running, most of the things that affect our daily lives come from somewhere else. Where once our ablitiy to make things here provided the means for America to become an independent nation, we have now made ourselves vulnerable and other countries have accepted our invitation to feed that vulnerablity.
Where once fine bluing, beautiful wood, crisp, smooth triggers, and fine fitting were the desire in firearms, we now flock to the Glock, looking for rugged, functional workhorses and judge things differntly. I have a Glock as a duty sidearm for Private Security. I do appreciate it as a rugged, reliable, service weapon. I also feel just a bit odd when I can see the copper and brass of a round in the gap near the slide release. As in guns, so in knives, blackened, rugged, functional blades are the norm and the things we valued in folders and fixed blades before are not always the same things valued now. There is a lot to be said for the funtionality and maintainability of the Glock as there is to be said for synthetic stocked, coated, utiltarian blades. Still there is something missing when you compare these to a 1917 S&W, made for war, but still had a smooth, clean action. Or a Bo Randall made No. 14 (I know, linen Micarta isn't exactly natural, but it is made of linen.). Of course at todays rates, such workmanship would jack the prices considerably. We are at a crossroads with two diverging standards. Our hearts cry out for the older, but our practicallity moves to the other.
Tossing in my dos centavos. Many on here who prefer traditional knives grew up with American names like Case, Old Timer, Buck, and with European names like Robert Klass Kissing Crane, Eye Brand, and others. People were more outdoor oriented either through vocation, recreation, or both. Knifelore and an appreciation of quality construction and materials were instilled in and handed down to each generation. Fit and finish on a knife were important. People recognized that a knife that walked and talked with a crisp dialect meant well made with attention to detail. They used to teach this to their children. Today the average adult consumer doesn't have a clue what "walk and talk" even means, let alone that it signifies anything. This is now a language only spoken by knife collectors and dinosaurs. I just bought a Case XX Sodbuster Jr. I like it. It is a nice knife. But, on opening it just kind of drags to full open, no walk and talk at all. Kind of sad and detracts from my enjoymant of an otherwise nice knife.
People once bought things to last and appreciated quality workmanship and materials. We repaired things that broke. We didn't just toss it in the trash and buy another one. Now, it is faster and cheaper to do so. For that matter try to find anyone who will fix basic things like toasters and fans, let alone be able to afford such repairs.
People, like those on this forum, who appreciated such marks of quality, who grew up with these almost sacred names in American and European cutlery feel sold out when a company like Schrade, highly respected for the steel and the grind of the blades, goes under and the name is sold and the manufacture moved to a country that doesn't have the same history with these knivese as we do. If Schrade had gone on to be made in Germany or Sweden or Italy then it wouldn't have been as harsh on those who grew up with these fine old blades, bit it still would have been hard.
It is like taking a national institution and outsourcing it, using the name to amass sales.
This selling of and trading on respected names has been going on for sometime. Popular Mechanics magazine has a long history with the American public. In past generations it was considered a solid source and a trusted name This may or may not have actually been true, but the perception was there. Somewhere over the last many years Popular Mechanics became a product label for things such as consumer bathroom products. Walmart and many others featured PM branded faucets, toilet tank valves, and such things at inexpensive prices. Trading on the general public's trust expecting quality from the name, they instead are selling lowgrade junk that needs frequent replacing, unless you do the sensible thing and buy a quality product the next time, swearing to never buy any PM marked crap again. Along with the disappointment comes a sour disillutionment. You think how could these guys put their names on something so crappy when for years you thought of them as an entity that appreciated and advocated quality. Seeing a vernerable institution such as Schrade go from being the company it was to an outsourced label is very hard to take. Old Timer, Uncle Henry, Schrade+ steel, these are American institutions. Making knives in China and putting these labels on them just seems vulgar. It is like selling a part of America.
Now, if knives are made from the beginning, or certain lines are set up to be made in places like Taiwan and China, then the blades are more judged on quality and workmanship appropriate to cost and intended use. These are not ingrained into our national conciousness as an American standard.
The current buyers of Schrades are buying the institution and the memory of the knives their fathers, grandfathers, uncles, etc, carried. A little of the American identity died with Schrade, a part of who we once were. Raising the label as it is currently exists can be seen as an insult. At the least they could have said Taylor Cutlery (or some other name), formerly Schrade, something like that so there was some distiction, a notation of the passing. As was noted in another post, Taylor is trading on the Schrade name and making a killing. The problem is, most of the people now buying those new Schrades are buying the name, but they don't have the knowledge or the appreciation things like "walk and talk." The general public today hasn't a clue what to look for or why. So to them, if it cuts and stays sharp for more than a few minutes it must be a great knife.
Epoluo, I appreciate the Chinese poeple, like many it is the government I don't care for. (I'm not always that fond of mine, but I love the Constitution and served my country for over a decade.) I'm a big fan of Lao Tzu and Chung Tzu. I think Chinese medicine has a lot to teach the west about healing, health, and diet. I think you made a good point, as did Sal, that the people there are only now learning and having the opportunity to learn about what we consider quality blades and knives. I do see quality and construction improving.
Sal, thanks for your involvement here. I don't have a Spyderco yet, but I may just have to fix that. There is something to be said for supporting those who support us. And who support a long term, fair practice, business model. Oh, wait, that's how we used to do business in this country once upon a time.
Others have pointed out that for various reasons America is loosing its capacity for design and manufacture. We are becoming extremely dependent on foreign products as we have been on foreign oil. Someone made the point over in the Wilderness Survival Forum that if imports suddenly stopped for some reason we would run out of new underwear for everyone in short order. The products we live by, the equipment and the parts to keep it running, most of the things that affect our daily lives come from somewhere else. Where once our ablitiy to make things here provided the means for America to become an independent nation, we have now made ourselves vulnerable and other countries have accepted our invitation to feed that vulnerablity.
Where once fine bluing, beautiful wood, crisp, smooth triggers, and fine fitting were the desire in firearms, we now flock to the Glock, looking for rugged, functional workhorses and judge things differntly. I have a Glock as a duty sidearm for Private Security. I do appreciate it as a rugged, reliable, service weapon. I also feel just a bit odd when I can see the copper and brass of a round in the gap near the slide release. As in guns, so in knives, blackened, rugged, functional blades are the norm and the things we valued in folders and fixed blades before are not always the same things valued now. There is a lot to be said for the funtionality and maintainability of the Glock as there is to be said for synthetic stocked, coated, utiltarian blades. Still there is something missing when you compare these to a 1917 S&W, made for war, but still had a smooth, clean action. Or a Bo Randall made No. 14 (I know, linen Micarta isn't exactly natural, but it is made of linen.). Of course at todays rates, such workmanship would jack the prices considerably. We are at a crossroads with two diverging standards. Our hearts cry out for the older, but our practicallity moves to the other.
Sal Glesser
Moderator
- Joined
- Dec 27, 1998
- Messages
- 11,711
Gee Amos, you're old
I think what you want is still there. It's just harder to find and more expensive.
sal
I think what you want is still there. It's just harder to find and more expensive.
sal
- Joined
- May 17, 2002
- Messages
- 5,757
epoluo said:
OK, now I have to ask.
What we in the west hear in the media is that the communists shut down internet cafes, ban blogs, get Google to aid in censoring what sites you and your countryman can/cannot access etc. Basically, they seem to try their very best to deny their people the freedom the internet provides.
How do you and other Chinese members manage to post at an American site where pro-freedom views are frequently and openly expressed?
I mean, most American and European members, including me, think that even their very own countries aren't nearly as free as they should be.
BFC certainly doesn't appear like a site (and the opinion you expressed above doesn't appear like a view) the Chinese government would approve of.
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2006
- Messages
- 2,171
Sal Glesser said:Gee Amos, you're old
sal
I always said that U.S. Army stands for Uncle Sam Already Ruined My Youth. Or as some of us put it, Army years are like dog years. Yep, I feel much older than I am. I think I was born that way. OH, wait! Yeah, that's it. I'm VINTAGE!In my mid to late thirties I worked part time in a gun shop in Fairbanks, AK while I was stationed there. I hung around with a handful of retirees (mostly civilian) and semi-retireds warming the boards of the Bullshooter's Bench in the shop when not working there. We did gun shows together at a time when many or even most of the tables were just guys getting together to swap, sell, and trade. One of the Bench regualrs I was closer to asked me, "You're a young guy, why do you hang out with us old guys?" I told him, "Walter, my goal in life is to be an old fart, and this is the best place to learn!"
Sal, I have a question for you. Just this morning I came across a v-stick sharpener that consist of grey rods set in a collapsable plastic frame which fits into a leather sheath. On the sheath it says, what else, Spyderco, Inc., Made in USA. I bought this from a vendor outside the PX at Fort Devens, MA back around 83 or 84. I seem to recall he told me he was the owner of the company and he was getting ready to start selling these through retail outlets. So the question is - Was that you? Or was he selling me a load along with the sharpener.
As you said, there are some traditional knives still being made that deliberately follow the old standards. Canal Street and Queen come to mind. My understanding is that these were founded by craftsmen from the big names that pretty much made it their mission statement to produce fine knives to the standards of the past. While I haven't had the chance to handle any, every report I've seen from folks who have a knife from either company speak highly of them and the standards to which they are made. And, both are made in the U.S. as a bonus. I have a Boker Barlow which walks and talks and there are several others, American and European, that I haven't mentioned. I think while some of our traditional, big names start responding to the larger marketplace and cut some corners to compete, there will be those smaller companies who focus on providing the more descriminating buyer who is looking for old standards, but not at custom prices. To be fair, Case, Buck, and others are still turning out some clean, honest, walkin, talkin knives that compare quite well with their older production, and at decent prices. So all is not lost. It's just a hard adjustment when the blade says made anywhere but where it used to be. More nostalgia and tradition than nationalism. Kissing Cranes are made in Germany, SAK is Switzerland, Case in the USofA, and who knows where the hell Cold Steel products are made! They'll probaly be the first to claim made on Mars from Chilled Venutian High Carbon Steel. Which will just happen to be a lot like 1095.
So Sal, I guess it would be outside the product model for Spyderco to make a fine line of reasonably priced traditional folders, eh? If made to your standards I wouldn't be troubled if they were made in Japan or Taiwan, or even China.
Thanks again for being approchable. That too is something that is becoming rare in the marketplace.
Best,
Amos