Knives in self defense???

joe-bob said:
To me, that situation would qualify, but as happens in so many hypothetical questions, a knife would be a particularly poor choice of weapon in your situation, because in order to use it, the attacker is already in the process of bashing in your skull. Another reason why a knife is a bad choice of weapons is that it has so little stopping power, (this is why swords were invented), a drug-crazed adrenaline-pumped attacker isn't going to notice much that he's been stabbed.
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Just wanted to point out that all a attacker usually has to do is demonstrate both the ability and intent to cause "Great bodily harm" or death in order for a person to have the legal standing to defend themselves with lethal force. For example: a person pulls out a baseball bat, runs at you and says "I'm going to bash your head in!". Depending on what your states laws are with regard to Duty to Retreat, you would be justified in takeing action, up to and including deadly force.

Ultimately WE have to take responsibly for our actions. Even if their aren't any criminal charges pressed, there is often a chance that civil charges may be, and the burden of proof is only 51 / 49% in a civil case.

I would take issue with the claim that a knife does not have the ability to have instant stopping power. While its true that stabbing attacks to large muscle groups will likely go unnoticed in the heat of the moment, being stabbed in the face, neck, armpit or lower intestines will likely have a devastating effect on most attackers.
 
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SwampVoodoo said:
Just wanted to point out that all a attacker usually has to do is demonstrate both the ability and intent to cause "Great bodily harm" or death in order for a person to have the legal standing to defend themselves with lethal force. For example: a person pulls out a baseball bat, runs at you and says "I'm going to bash your head in!". Depending on what your states laws are with regard to Duty to Retreat, you would be justified in takeing action, up to and including deadly force.

Ultimately WE have to take responsibly for our actions. Even if their aren't any criminal charges pressed, there is often a chance that civil charges may be, and the burden of proof is only 51 / 49% in a civil case.

I would take issue with the claim that a knife does not have the ability to have instant stooping power. While its true that stabbing attacks to large mussel groups will likely go unnoticed in the heat of the moment, being stabbed in the face, neck, armpit or lower intestines will likely have a devastating effect on most attackers.
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:thumbup: i tend to agree with this. i'll always remember when i saw, first hand, just how small a hole (in the belly) human intestines could actually fall through. i get pretty focussed, when i'm angry, but i think trippin over my own ductwork might slow my roll a wee bit :(

like with firearms, placement is key though, because i do know people who were stabbed (repeatedly) and believed they were being punched.
 
TheLastDaze said:
just make sure they're dead!!
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I'm not going to disagree with that statement BUT REMEMBER, when the threat ends, your attack must also end. If the person that was attacking you no longer has the ability to inflict death or great bodily harm, you also must discontinue the application of DEADLY force.


Dead men may not tell tales but 97 stab wounds to the chest speaks volumes. ;)
 
Hmm.... is someone is running at me with a baseball bat and all I have on me is a pocket knife, even one of the larger 4 inch knives or XL Voyager, I am running my arse off because a bat has a hell of a lot more reach then my puny knife does, and getting slugged with a bat will be a no win situation for you. I would rather have a gun in that situation. A machete would be fine too...

I have read these "When to defend myself" threads a million times, and all it comes down to, is if you think you are gonna be dead, do what you have to do to stay alive. But remember, it has got to be the last resort. If you have to run like a whiny little girl screaming at the top of your lungs do it, only resort to violence if you have to because there is going to be a lot of money and time taken away from you for the court proceedings and all the other judicial crap you will have to go through.
 
almasy87 said:
It's a big balancing act and contributing factors would include: whether or not the assailant is armed, the kind of weapon the assailant has, location, ability to retreat, local laws concerning duty to retreat, reasonable ability to defend yourself using nonlethal means (if you're a 5 foot female being attacked by a 7 foot male, you'll get in less trouble for using a knife than a 6 foot male being attacked by a 6 foot male), etc. etc.
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One the subject of disparity of force; There was an incident here a while back where a couple was carjacked by 4 men after leaving a concert. At least one had a knife. The boyfriend pulled his pocket knife and fought them off wounding two of the attackers. A couple of samaritans also jumped into the fray. No charges were filed since "it was a clear case of self defense".

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/loc...-be-Theives-with-a-Pocket-Knife-98765644.html
 
All I know is that I would never pull a knife unless it was an absolute life and death situation.

For example, on my campus we had 7 robberies in one week, most by knife point. This has caused me to always be aware of my surroundings and always be looking for an escape route etc while I'm out. because being aware is the best protection.
If someone pulls a knife, depending on where i am i will first try to run, and if thats not an option ill just give it to them. If they pull a gun they can have whatever i have and i wont even attempt to run, and if they dont pull anything all those years of MMA training are going to come in handy :D

In all those cases my knife Isnt coming out unless they try to attack me first and I am scared for my life.
 
This is a superb, smart discussion. A couple of questions on Fox Labs 5.3:

--are there any state or local laws against this potent a product? I live in CA, for example.

--I am in an electric wheelchair, with limited ability to maneuver if the wind changes. And I don't think I could handle contact with this. Would I be better off getting the stream, the gel, or some other form? What is most resistant to wind and least likely to go general aerosole and incapacitate me?

My thanks.
 
ASBOB said:
This is a superb, smart discussion. A couple of questions on Fox Labs 5.3:

--are there any state or local laws against this potent a product? I live in CA, for example.

--I am in an electric wheelchair, with limited ability to maneuver if the wind changes. And I don't think I could handle contact with this. Would I be better off getting the stream, the gel, or some other form? What is most resistant to wind and least likely to go general aerosole and incapacitate me?

My thanks.
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There is a quantity limit (2.5 oz) in cali, but I'm not aware of any limit on OC content. There may be local ordinances though. As for getting contaminated, the conventional cone pattern is probably the worst. I don't know what is the best. If I had to guess, I'd say a narrow stream is the least likely to atomize and blow back at you.

Can you get non-OC "training" sprays and try them on a windy day?
 
In my home state of Michigan there are some limitations to the legal use of self defense (SD) by potentially deadly force. To wit, a potential defendant would have to establish the following: (1) The threat was actual or apparent; (2) There was threat of great bodily harm or death; (3) The threat was immediate and imminent; (4) The defendant's belief was both subjectively honest (i.e. the defendant actually believed in fact that SD was necessay) and objectively reasonable (i.e. the jury must find that a reasonably prudent person in the same or similar circumstances would have believed that SD was necessary); and (5) The defendant's response must have been proportionate to the perceived threat (i.e. the defendant only used the same amount of force that was being or about to be used against the defendant). In addition, some states require that the defendant not be the initial aggressor and that no safe retreat was possible by the defendant.

The above information is being posted for general educational purposes only and should not be construed as legal advice.
You should consult with your own lawyer about your specific situation.
 
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If you're in a situation where you need to use a knife to defend your life, don't think about the laws, just do it. Worry about the laws AFTER you finish not dying. There's a famous quote that goes something like this: "It's better to be judged by twelve than to be carried by six."
 
Skunkfoot said:
If you're in a situation where you need to use a knife to defend your life, don't think about the laws, just do it. Worry about the laws AFTER you finish not dying. There's a famous quote that goes something like this: "It's better to be judged by twelve than to be carried by six."
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Worse case scenario: you occupy a jail/prison cell for a few years. People walk out of jails/prisons every day. I have yet to see anyone walk out of a grave.
 
TOM1960 said:
Worse case scenario: you occupy a jail/prison cell for a few years. People walk out of jails/prisons every day. I have yet to see anyone walk out of a grave.
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The prejudice agains the proverbial "Yellow passport of a convict" is still very strong. You may walk out of the prison, but an "assault with a deadly weapon" felony conviction isn't going to help you while trying rebuild your life (Jobs, apartments, house and car loans, etc). A little research ahead of time (as ASBOB is doing) and some situation awareness can help you keep your skin and your freedom.
 
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Clang! said:
"assault with a deadly weapon" felony conviction isn't going to help you while trying rebuild your life. . . .
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Self defense is not assault! Now, if you're the initial aggressor, then that's a completely different story.

Assault is a behavior, not a device. If you're behaving legally (which includes legal use of deadly force in justifiable self defense), then you can't be convicted of assault. See my post below.
 
similar to concealed handgun laws....

Force Vs. Deadly force.

At least under Texas law, there are times which dictate which type of force is allowed. Someone picking a fight= force. Someone kidnapping your kid= force. Someone kidnapping your kid and saying "I'm going to cause harm to them" or makes such a motion or gesture to imply this (like pulling his finger across his neck in the "head off" or "kill" motion) = deadly force.

force means basic fighting, subduing.
deadly force means using any implement that can maim, kill, destroy (i.e. knife, gun, asp etc. other words a "weapon).

Know the difference.

basically you meet the type of force employed against you. Coming at you with a bat (read "weapon") you use deadly force as you feel your "life is in immediate danger" and you wanted to "stop" him.
That's also your defense in court is "i wanted to stop him." Period. Not "I was scared for my life so I thought I'm gonna kill him back." The jury won't like that. You say "stop."

Then you get to the scenario's. Petty theft (someone steals your hamburger and walks off) you use force. Robbery = deadly force. This is when they steal your hamburger and say "don't stop me I'll hurt you". Aggravated Robbery is when they brandish a weapon = deadly force.

Ton's more situations.
 
I recently came across this in another thread.

http://www.crime-information.com/mace-pepper-gel-best-defense-spray-deterrent

As noted above in post #28, I'm looking for something that won't blow back on me, given my severely limited mobility.

Pros and Cons (that I perceive) on this product:

Cons: My impression--only that--is that this is not as powerful/effective as Fox Labs 5.3

Pros:

to quote the ad copy: Furthermore, Mace pepper gel releases no ambient particles into the air which is a huge plus. It can be fired in a car, an apartment and even a hospital safely with no harmful gas left floating in the air.

Your thoughts? Anyone actually see this in action?
 
As far as a knife's "stooping power", cut through a good portion of the attacker's quadricep muscle (or just above the knee where the ligament attaches to the muscle) and I think you can get him to stoop ;).

With respect to justified use of deadly force, a reasonable fear of serious bodily injury or death is required.
 
I'm surprised no one has talked about using a knife in a non-lethal role yet. I recently was talking to a LEO on my college campus, about a knife I was carrying (my BM-940, if i remember correctly). I told him it was a tool, and it is legal for me to carry. He asked if I would ever use it to defend myself, and I told him that it could be used as an impact weapon if held closed, but if my life was in danger then I would do all that I could do to save myself. He said he would expect nothing else.

So I guess my point is that if it endangers your life, and you have no other option, do what you can to live. Otherwise run, or use a non-lethal option.
 
Easier said than done, my young friend.

When a person is being attacked, and he defends himself, he doesn't have time to think about whether he will use lethal vs. non-lethal force. All he thinks about is eliminating a threat. And if he successfully defends himself -- whether it's with a knife or gun or golf club -- that's exaclty what he should say to the LEO's who show up on the scene: "I was afraid for my life, and I acted to eliminate the threat." Period. Say that, and nothing else, until you talk to a criminal defense attorney.
 
robertl said:
I'm surprised no one has talked about using a knife in a non-lethal role yet. I recently was talking to a LEO on my college campus, about a knife I was carrying (my BM-940, if i remember correctly). I told him it was a tool, and it is legal for me to carry. He asked if I would ever use it to defend myself, and I told him that it could be used as an impact weapon if held closed, but if my life was in danger then I would do all that I could do to save myself. He said he would expect nothing else.

So I guess my point is that if it endangers your life, and you have no other option, do what you can to live. Otherwise run, or use a non-lethal option.
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When I entered college 32 years ago, I carried a Gerber FS II lockback folder. It remained completely concealed deep in my pocket the whole time I was on campus each day (I was a commuter). The absolute LAST thing that I would have thought of doing was showing/mentioning it to campus security or LEOs. You were lucky that you weren't arrested on the spot for carrying/possessing it on campus, especially after 9/11. Many LEOs were trained to make the arrest first, then let the courts sort it all out. Not worth taking the chance as far as I am concerned. Don't think that LEO that you spoke to will be speaking on behalf of your defense in court. More likely, he would be the first one to arrest you and testify against you on behalf of the prosecution.
 
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