Knives in self defense???

[2edgesword]

Easier said than done, my young friend.

When a person is being attacked, and he defends himself, he doesn't have time to think about whether he will use lethal vs. non-lethal force. All he thinks about is eliminating a threat. And if he successfully defends himself -- whether it's with a knife or gun or golf club -- that's exaclty what he should say to the LEO's who show up on the scene: "I was afraid for my life, and I acted to eliminate the threat." Period. Say that, and nothing else, until you talk to a criminal defense attorney.

How easy or difficult it is to use a knife in self-defense will depend on the situation and the individuals training.

Training will also play a role in how the knife is applied with respect to the types of wounds inflicted and the potential for those wounds to be lethal.

I say this with the understanding that as far as the law is concerned introducing a knife into a self-defense situation is viewed as the intent to apply lethal force.

 

[robertl]

When I entered college 32 years ago, I carried a Gerber FS II lockback folder. It remained completely concealed deep in my pocket the whole time I was on campus each day (I was a commuter). The absolute LAST thing that I would have thought of doing was showing/mentioning it to campus security or LEOs. You were lucky that you weren't arrested on the spot for carrying/possessing it on campus, especially after 9/11. Many LEOs were trained to make the arrest first, then let the courts sort it all out. Not worth taking the chance as far as I am concerned. Don't think that LEO that you spoke to will be speaking on behalf of your defense in court. More likely, he would be the first one to arrest you and testify against you on behalf of the prosecution.

I happen to go to one of the biggest agricultural schools in the country, I'd guess about 2 in 5 people on campus at a given time have knives. I know my schools laws, and I was using it in a legal fashion to cut para cord when the LEO came by. I'm sure if I was bragging to my friends about it and saying how cool it was, he might have had a talk with me. But it only ever goes from my pocket to the job I need to do, and back. I'd never actively mention I was carrying a knife to anyone, let alone an LEO.

But thanks for the heads up, i'm sure not all LEO's would be as understanding.

 

[kingsqueak]

Standing one's ground against a baseball bat when one only has a knife.....you better have years of combat training or suddenly become religious. Seriously, take some time to visualize what a nice full strike with a bat would be like.

I carry a knife as a tool and as a last possible ditch effort means of defense. If you really think it over, most scenarios where a knife becomes an effective option start to cross a really grey line where you likely have an arguable enough advantage at the time to have not used the knife.

Going through a dark house because I think I heard someone break in, I'd rather have a knife than not, but a shotgun is a lot smarter. A dark alley, better have a knife than nothing, but did I need to walk down that alley? A group of thugs, better to have than not, but also better to have left first ;-).

if you are close enough to use a knife, they are close enough to grab/stab you too, it's totally last ditch. Afterall you don't know what they are capable of either.

Years ago I worked as a bouncer. Most of the time, it was an easy job, someone out of shape, drunk, angry, unfocused, not very hard to deal with. Every now and then though, you go to get someone to leave and realize "Uh oh, this guy has done this before." Many times, you don't know who you're dealing with until it's awfully late. You know what...most of those, a knife wouldn't be warranted and I never never had a blade on me for that job for exactly that reason. Always always best to take the smartest means to the end.

Running at you with a bat? Seriously, think about that one for a bit. Bit of a ramble, but I've spent a lot of years working under use of force guidelines and I think sometimes people can under-overthink scenarios without enough reality in them.

Oh and if you've never truly been under life or death pressure, you had better start working on your cardio now. The adrenaline when that happens is like nothing you've ever experienced most likely. I'm a fat old man now, I'd probably be close to a heart attack heh. When I worked various jobs I used to run all the time and the adrenaline crush was still so intense my ears would ring and time would stop. You've never realized how long a double action trigger pull is until you've sensed it go 3/4 of the way until you finally stop pulling ;-).

 

[2edgesword]

Standing one's ground against a baseball bat when one only has a knife.....

Good points Kingsqueak. I would add...

Against a baseball bat you never stand your ground, you're either moving in, moving under or moving back with the least preferred option (IMHO) moving back.

As for a knife against a bat, the object is not going force on force against the bat. In that situation you will lose every time (fundamental physics). You're either moving into the arch of the swing while taking a health slash at the inside of the attackers arm or ducking under, slashing at the quad of the attackers leading leg. When you're dealing with a long range contact weapon you can reduce some of the effectiveness of that weapon by moving in rather then moving away.

A knife can be an effective self-defense tool against other contact weapons (knife, bottle, blunt force weapons, etc.) is some circumstances. There may be other deadly force situations (attacker is empty hand but has a huge physical advantage, multiple attackers, etc.) where a knife could justifiable be used as a force equalizer.

Having said this there is no guarantee that having the knife means you'll have the opportunity to use it even if the situation justifies the use of DPF. On the other hand if you're in a situation where using a knife would be justified and you don't have one or have never trained to use one effectively it's one less option available to you where the justification and opportunity exist. The same is true with respect to firearms.

 

[kingsqueak]

Excellent point, going against all 'normal' instinct, yeah, getting inside the reach of the bat is totally right. If one is in that situation, plenty close enough for something pointy to work.

Timing here is of course everything....

*shudder* heh, not fun to think about.

My biggest single fear, that I would actually have nightmares about when I was working in various security roles was being knocked out or equally disabled. It's all over then. That one miss judged move, a bob when you should have weaved etc.

I only had my 'bell rung' once and it was among many many bad situations by far the one that shook me the most after it was over. I didn't even totally go out, it was just so close that it gripped me with some serious pause a few hours after it was all over. I almost went out.

 

[kingsqueak]

I forgot to mention, three different, rather grave situations...

2 slashings across my back wearing very heavy winter coats, both nearly took the coat off my back but didn't reach skin. One was a medium fixed blade hunter, one was a box cutter.

1 incident with a drawn revolver pointed at someone next to me.

All of which happened in 'bullet time', just gut instinct to deal with them...and guess what 'fixed' all three?

A tempered aluminum straight baton night stick. The power of a stick can be rather incredible and in close quarters invaluable. Dropped all three of the 'problems' like a bad habit.

I still have that stick and it still has the tooth imprints from the firearm incident in it.

Hit with a bat, heh, no thanks.

 

[2edgesword]

Timing here is of course everything....

*shudder* heh, not fun to think about.

One of the things I harp on is once you start a move never try to backtrack. That "shudder" almost always results in putting you in a worse situation then if you had just continued to move in the direction you were already going.

There may be an ideal movement in defending against a particular attack but if that doesn't happen to be the instinctive move you made so be it. You're not going to get a do over in the street so deal with what you've done and make the best of it.

 

[Clang!]

...Mace pepper gel releases no ambient particles into the air which is a huge plus. It can be fired in a car, an apartment and even a hospital safely with no harmful gas left floating in the air.

Your thoughts? Anyone actually see this in action?

I contaminated myself off of residue on the can (handled the pepper gel can and wiped my eye). It took about 4 seconds to have a significant effect and about 8 seconds to full strength. The pain wasn't too bad, but I was effectively blind in that eye.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8779301#post8779301

If you do go this route, make sure to give the can a GOOD cleaning before handling it.

************************************************************************************

A tempered aluminum straight baton night stick....I still have that stick and it still has the tooth imprints from the firearm incident in it.

Ouch! That just hurts thinking about it.

 

[Clang!]

Double post

 

[HoosierQ]

Bottom line, a knife just isn't a very good defensive weapon...at all...and is practically useless if the attacker is armed...with anything. I am not a SEAL, never was a SEAL, don't know a SEAL, never met a SEAL (well, a lady at work has a boy trying out for the SEALs...so we'll see)...so maybe this doesn't apply to SEALs. If you are in a situation where you find yourself regularly having to defend yourself, get a gun. If you find yourself in some kind of jam, reach for a shovel or a big stick or something. And two guys fighting with knives, movie-style...think stitches...lots and lots of stitches...everywhere!

To be effective with a knife, you have to have surprise on your side and at that point, you're on offense. Yes, one could hypothesize a situation where you might legally defend yourself with a knife but those are gonna be so rare that they barely bear mention.

If you need to train for self defense, train with a firearm.

 

[GrinderMcgee]

How is it that I am to assume a knife is a bad weapon which requires SEAL team training to use effectively and at the same time assume that every street walker with a bat will hit me like Reggie Jackson?

It takes determination and physical ability with a pinch of random chance with either weapon. Give me a choice and I'll take a fixed knife in almost any scenario involving the bat vs knife.

 

[2edgesword]

Bottom line, a knife just isn't a very good defensive weapon...at all...and is practically useless if the attacker is armed...with anything.

A knife is an excellent self-defensive weapon is some situations and with the proper training.

If you are in a situation where you find yourself regularly having to defend yourself, get a gun.

Unfortunately there are many individuals that for one reason or another (I live in the downstate portion of the People's Republic of NY where a firearm is not an option) do not have the option to carry a firearm. If I did have that option I would and I would carry one whether or not I had to regularly defend myself or not. In the vast majority of cases the citizen that has the need woke-up that morning with no idea the need would arise.

If you find yourself in some kind of jam, reach for a shovel or a big stick or something.

Unless you're regularly in the woods or on a construction site I don't readily come across those big sticks or shovels you reference are readily accessible, while a knife can be very conveniently concealed and carried in your pocket.

To be effective with a knife, you have to have surprise on your side and at that point, you're on offense. Yes, one could hypothesize a situation where you might legally defend yourself with a knife but those are gonna be so rare that they barely bear mention.

Awareness is huge with respect to using any weapon in defending yourself. Attackers typical don't appear out of thin air. There are usually some precurors leading up to an attack.

Having the weapon is only one aspect of effective self-defense whether we're talking knife, gun or empty-hand defense. Having a weapon doesn't guarantee a good outcome but having the weapon can become a major factor in a successful outcome.

 

[joe-bob]

I am not a SEAL, never was a SEAL, don't know a SEAL, never met a SEAL (well, a lady at work has a boy trying out for the SEALs...so we'll see)...so maybe this doesn't apply to SEALs.

It doesn't. I've met SEALs. They most likely will have a knife, but they won't need it.

Moral of the story: Don't mess with SEALs!

 

[TheCarbideRat]

Google Brenddy Garcia for a view at a [more or less] complete saga of knife self defense, killing in defense and of course the critical aftermath.
He was practically lynched by the media as a "monster" after he was forced to defend himself on a NYC subway train [where there are few avenues of 'retreat'] only after the real story became clear was he vindicated.

He and his family are still under threat from the expired's families and "associates".
Guy's a hero. :thumbup:

 

[stabman]

Bottom line, a knife just isn't a very good defensive weapon...at all...and is practically useless if the attacker is armed...with anything.

To be effective with a knife, you have to have surprise on your side and at that point, you're on offense.

Wrong and wrong.

 

[TheCarbideRat]

Wrong and wrong.

:thumbup::thumbup:

 

[mrdavidross321]

i am not 100% sure but i think in Fl it is illegal to carry a knife for self defence i think you have to have a utility value to carry it and it has to be in plain view(pocket clip showing... not coverd by shirt) it is legal however to carry pepper spray or stun guns/tazers for self defence(once again has to be in open view)

 

[link2derek]

Wrong and wrong.

Ditto and ditto. Reminds me of a saying:

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."

- Abraham Lincoln, 16th President of the United States (1809 - 1865)

 

[link2derek]

i am not 100% sure but i think in Fl it is illegal to carry a knife for self defence i think you have to have a utility value to carry it and it has to be in plain view(pocket clip showing... not coverd by shirt) it is legal however to carry pepper spray or stun guns/tazers for self defence(once again has to be in open view)

Here is the Florida statute (updated to 2006):

790.001 Definitions.
(3)(a) "Concealed weapon" means any dirk, metallic knuckles, slungshot, billie, tear gas gun, chemical weapon or device, or other deadly weapon carried on or about a person in such a manner as to conceal the weapon from the ordinary sight of another person.

(13) "Weapon" means any dirk, metallic knuckles, slungshot, billie, tear gas gun, chemical weapon or device, or other deadly weapon except a firearm or a common pocketknife.

790.01 Carrying concealed weapons.(1) Except as provided in subsection (4), a person who carries a concealed weapon or electric weapon or device on or about his or her person commits a misdemeanor of the first degree. . . .

(Emphasis added)

So, it depends what "deadly weapon" means and what "common pocketknife" means in the state of Florida.

One could argue that "deadly" is too broad of a term (because it could include many items not intended to be covered by the law, e.g., a metal writing instrument or a golf club) and, therefore, violates due process (i.e., if a person doesn't have notice of the actual meaning of a law, then that person cannot be prosecuted for violating that law (per the Due Process clause of the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution)).

Further, one could also argue that many different types of knives are in fact "common" and carried in the pocket. To wit, I carry a Sebenza (and used to carry a BM710 and BM940), and could point to many good folks on this and other forums who commonly carry one of those knives in their pocket. Therefore, they are common pocketknives, and are a legal exception under 790.001(13).

The above information is being posted for general discussion and educational purposes only and should not be construed as legal advice.
You should always consult with your own lawyer about your specific situation.

 

[mrdavidross321]

so im curious lol can i carry a fixed blade in florida as long as it is not hidden?