Knives necessary in the outdoors?

[PayetteRucker]

lmao.

 

[otis williams]

Originally Posted by otis williams
huh. of course you need a knife to go into the wild. as important as shoes. in a worst-case scenario, it can be your fire/shelter/food source.

what if you're pulled into the river you happen to be crossing, and your pack gets hung up?... you're being held under by a strong current, and don't have a knife to free yourself?...

Can I just ask, isn't it dangerous to cross a river that has a strong current, without putting a rope or some sort of line in place as a safety measure? If your alone, well then why would you cross a river with a strong current that will more than likely pull you under in the first place? Couldn't you find a shallower part/less current?

if you don't have sense to carry a knife in the wilderness, who's to say you have the sense to stay on dry land?, or know how to cross a river safely? sometimes safety lines fail.

And assuming that the bottom of you pack is around your waist level, wouldnt this be as deep as you'd want to go, i.e. not up to your armpits? Or if you have to cross deeper, would you perhaps take you pack off and cross with it off, that way if it does get swept away/dragged under, your not taken with it.

water doesn't have to be waist high to have a strong enough current to pull you in, and wet rocks tend to be slippery.


some friends and i went to l.a. this past fall,(that's a real wilderness) and the only knife i had with me was a 2-blade old timer. nice and sharp. my nurse friend had a wicked blister open up, and an inch-diameter piece of skin hanging off her heel. she got to perform a minor self-surgery, and my irrational need to carry a knife on sunset strip was validated.

I'm gonna be a smartass here, but couldn't you do that with a nice and sharp SAK classic / any sak with a blade

But as I said above I will carry a knife, but I know that I can say, and am totally able to hike without one, or think I'm 'less of a man', as one post said for not carrying one, as my trusty SAK does me fine.

a knife's a knife.

 

[Whynacht]

I've just never been attracted to mules, myself... although there was this cute little goat once who had the prettiest brown eyes...

I think I met her today!

[/IMG]

 

[22-rimfire]

Did Rambo need a knife? Do ducks quack? I need a knife. I would feel naked outdoors without one.

 

[dawsonbob]

I think I met her today!

[/IMG]

LOL. Well, that's a nice looking goat, to be sure, but my goat — Ruby was her name — had even prettier eyes.

 

[actionshooter38]

Hell, I don't go anywhere without at least one blade on my person, usually two. I am constantly amazed by the number of people who go about their daily lives depending on others for things. I can't count the number of times per day someone will ask me to cut something for them because they know I have the means handy.

 

[kgd]

Maybe I was one of the rude ones. I was just poking fun. There have been a few times I went on my walks without a knife and without an ignition source. Sure that stuff happens. I was kind of making fun of hiking and the ultralight crowd, only because I find it comical how serious they are about walking and every ounce. I've done it myself in my younger year and I kind of know how pounding the feet to the ground and going distance produces every bit as much endorfans as long races.

Just like we have the big knife versus teeny, wheeny, itsy, bitsy little (read 4" ) knife threads often, it all depends on circumstances. What you do, what tools and resources you have at hand, what circumstances you are under. I like the knife as a safety crux as much as I like my triangle bandage and antiseptic. However, one thing is for sure. The triangle bandages stays 100% of the time in the pack. There was that one time when I put it on my head because I forgot my hat and looked like a total dork for wearing medical fabric on my head

For my knife though, that is a different story. I use it very often. Truth is perhaps, part of it is that I just like using it. I don't tear open wrapped food with my teeth, I use my knife to do it. I even use my knife often to slice an apple while eating it. As an example, today I went on a walk (actually each day this weekend). Afterwards, I was in the kitchen fighting with an udon noodle package and my hand went right to my hip for my sheath knife. This wasn't something I thought of, my hand just went there. What a bloody disappointment it was to my hand to find no knife on my hip! I actually had to walk over to the other counter and grab a chef knife to cut open the package. I use this example to illustrate that using my knife is a subconscious act. I don't know how often I do it, but I do it often. I see a stick that I can't recognize the bark pattern of, my knife scores its and takes a slice off. I sniff it and ponder how hard the wood is. I think about its applications.

I look at it this way...

There have been a number of times in the past where I found myself thinking, "Man, I wish I was carrying my knife." There has never once been a time where I thought to myself, "I sure wish I didn't have this knife on me."

Exactly! I have often begrudged carrying my SLR camera and I still pull that heavy sucker around. I rarely begrudge carrying my knife. I have though on occasion. My RD-9 pissed me off, slap, slap/flap the thigh and heavy.....AAAAAH, I like the knife but I don't like hauling it!

wait a minute, a SAK, no matter how diminutive, is still a knife

my knife for many multi day trips used to consist of a SAK classic- at 0.7 oz it definitely was 0.7 oz packed full of usefulness last year I went to a wood burning stove and replaced the SAK w/ a small fixed blade- added a few more oz, but that was easily offset by the savings in fuel weight

the other consideration was if I became separated from my pack, while the SAK certainly would still be useful (it was always tethered and carried in my pocket), the small fixed blade (carried as a necker) would be even more useful

Yeah, with all do respect to the OP, I do not recall that the OP distinguished a SAK or multitool from a knife but a little sub-thread spun off about SAK versus a fixed blade which is kind of silly. A SAK or a folder is still a knife. In my opinion you have greater limitations on what you can do with a SAK verses a robust fixed blade, but a SAK is a knife as is a leatherman. I can get buy with one of those also, but I prefer a fixed blade because getting buy with isn't my goal. I like to use tools that excel at the stuff I want to use them for.....Yeah - I'm segwaying right into a whole batoning thing which I shouldn't do...

Tony, I for one appreciated beef raising the issue and giving us something to debate this morning. I still think it's a fair question to pose as well. For guys who have been around the forum for a while and have picked up a few tips and tricks here, I bet we are better prepared to survive without a knife than your average man-off-the-street. I'd argue this decreases our need for a knife.

While I wouldn't want to wander out my back door without a blade, reading a lot of great material here in W&SS and practicing some important skills has definitely increased my confidence to survive without a knife. So the question of need becomes quite relative. Most of the responses in this thread have been that a knife is an important contingency item--in my mind that makes it more of a nice-to-have item than a necessity.

I can make fire, collect water, and construct shelter without a knife (in many environments). A knife makes those tasks easier, but that doesn't make a knife a necessity. With modern gear and camping techniques--knives are not needed, except as a back up tool.

IIRC, we had a thread addressing our top 3 survival items a while ago where several people put a metal pot or container at the top of their survival kit, followed by fire making gear, followed by a tarp or poncho. And these responses were collected on a knife website!

Fair question, let's keep it a civil fight. :thumbup:

Great response. Skills are still more important than tools. Tools can be improvised and a knife isn't too hard to improvise. I'm not even talking requiring a finely crafted flint blade either. Find yourself a mussel shell and you can do a lot of slicing with that even filleting a fish. A rock can be used with great effect in many applications. Skills are more important than a knife. A knife without skills ain't going to help you either.

 

[m]

People get separated and gear gets disabled or lost so I always try to have knives and fire making gear securely on my person no matter what else I carry or who else I'm with.

 

[udtjim]

kdg. I agree with most of your post except that for me the SAK is more versitile than any fixed blade for all around use. That because I carry the SAK's that have the tools that I use most, and I use all of them. I never feel under knifed even camping with just the SAK. It goes in my pocket every day even for church.

That said, the SAK is not the perfect tool for everything and can't replace a fixed blade for heavier work nor would I ever want to (To Many fixed blades) available.

Interesting thread but, Like any of use are going out without a knife or two or three. Last time I stopped at the court house, I had to put five knives in their tray.

 

[kgd]

udtjim, I think Saks are great. They come as often with me as any fixed blade. For the most part, I use the saw on mine, but I like having the other tools. I've saved blade tips enough buy using the awl to poke things that shouldn't be poked and the screwdriver for prying. I really do like SAKs. Its just hard to get all giggly about them

 

[dawsonbob]

udtjim, I think Saks are great. They come as often with me as any fixed blade. For the most part, I use the saw on mine, but I like having the other tools. I've saved blade tips enough buy using the awl to poke things that shouldn't be poked and the screwdriver for prying. I really do like SAKs. Its just hard to get all giggly about them

I think that's the thing, Ken. We don't get all giggly about them because they're trusted companions that we use constantly. They're just there all the time, and we don't really give them much thought; they're just one of those things that "just work."

They're not as sexy as a new fixed blade in any way. Kinda like your shoes — you just put 'em on everyday without thought, and expect them to work. I love my Farmer, but I never really give it much thought.

 

[beef]

So beef, are you contemplating going knifeless on your next trek? I know you said you typically bring several knives on a hike. And I didn't get the impression you were advocating for not carrying a knife. (You mentioned that even when "death marching" you carry a Mora. ) But I'd be curious to get your impressions of a week long trip without a knife.

I know it can be done. I just think I'd feel uncomfortable doing so. Will you try it?

Nope I've never walked without a knife and don't intend to. I'm sure I'd be fine without it, but they come along because my pack is so light I can afford to bring a toy or two. I simply view them as a non essential. Doesn't mean I'd walk without them though.

I did a trip report recently on a 5 day trip involving tracked and untracked sections, walking 10-14 hrs per day. The only use the mora saw was making tent pegs and a few little non essential carving jobs. And I guess if I packed tent pegs, I wouldn't have used it at all. We cooked over fires all that trip, even in the rain.

Scenario 1. Your stove's fuel tank leaks and all the sudden you have no source of heat to make your tea and you freeze to death with a broken leg.
Scenario 2. You break your leg and the two people you tell about your day hike decide to put it in the back of their minds because it really isn't on their top priority of things to do today. They check your facebook 8 days later and realize, hmm, I wonder why beef hasn't been online today. Oh shit...
Scenario 3. You get bitten by a rattlesnake but by the time you start to suck the venom out the bite holes have already closed. Venom courses freely through your veins and begins wreaking havoc with your nervous system. Autoimmune reaction causes massive swelling and you are completely unable to do anything for yourself. 2 days later when you're supposed to be home and you're not because you froze to death on the trail after being incapacitated by snakebite.

Hi PR, thanks for the response and the specific examples. I think specificity is important in deciding whether a risk is likely or unlikely.

1.) Esbit tabs, so no fuel tank to puncture.
2.) If my girlfriend and family didn't realise that I was missing, I think I'd seriously have to reconsider the relationships in my life
3.) In Australia, we are taught to use a pressure bandage, not cut and suck, and we have some fairly serious nasties out here!

What if it windy, did you tie that tarp down? Did you have cordage?, why didn't you splint your leg? A knife would have come in handy for all those reasons and more.
Snip
Ok, take the possibility, that your dy bag failed and now is a wet bag. Or you have become seperated from your pack. (It happens) a knife will then be a handy tool to get a fire started. (taken you have the skill to do it)

Or even if you do change your clothes, into dry clothes. I bet you're still gonna want that fire if you're hurt, and to dry out your jacket and warmer more insulative clothing...

I hope you realize you typed in wwwdotbladeforumsdotcom. Then you came to the wilderness and survival skills subforum to post a statement on why you didn't need a knife in the woods..
Snip

Did you really expect people to not call you a troll

Hi Tony,
1.) Yep, I'd tie down the tarp if able to, an 8x10' vapor barrier wouldn't be pleasant.
2.) In wet weather my poncho covers my pack, which protects my drybag, which protects the garbage bag inside which protects my polyester warm gear. I guess this is a risk I'm willing to take. I still carry a lighter/ firesteel and opinel in the pocket, the knife just isn't considered essential.

As to skill sets, yes, I can use the firebow, hand drill, sparks from quartz etc. But I question whether I could use these skills with my fine motor skills shot from the cold, or adrenaline. Which is why I consider warm gear to be a safer bet.

3.) Yes I'm fully aware of the website name. I'm here due to a love of knives, just like the rest. Nowhere in my posts have I preached that the forum SHOULDN'T carry knives, or that I don't carry knives.

4.)Erm, yep, I kinda didn't expect to be called a troll actually. I do get frustrated however when people ask "how can you hunt/ fish/ carve without a knife" when the post is specifically about hiking. Just as it's annoying to read "you're not a man if you don't carry a blade". Here was me thinking manliness was something to do with having balls, maturity and being reliable.

The last three pages have been great. I have no problem with people disagreeing. It'd be boring if we all thought the same.

 

[udtjim]

beef, I thought it was a very good question, I enjoyed the discussion as well.

Dawsonbob, Very well said about the SAK's, to me they are a serous tool but like you said, when I put on my pants, it's in there.

kgd, I know that you almost always have a SAK as well.:thumbup:

 

[SouthernCross]

G'day Beef

.... I have no problem with people disagreeing. It'd be boring if we all thought the same.

Before I respond to your original question, let me say that I agree 100% with the above comment :thumbup::thumbup:`

Now back to your original question.

Hi All,
I've been musing on whether a knife is really a necessity in the outdoors. First I think I should specify that I mean when day hiking or multi day backpacking......

For me a necessity is something that can't be done without.

Going from the number of posters who have essentially agreed it can be done, then I would agree that for a person who is well equiped with water, food, shelter and additional clothing, a cooking stove that doesn't need firewood, who has a backup in place (i.e. a responsible person who will raise the alarm if you are overdue), then IMO a knife is not a necessity

Bear in mind this is not totally typical of the trips I do into the bush

First up I don't own a camping stove (in any form). I cook over a campfire This comes with some need to process wood for the campfire.

Secondly, most of my multi day trips involve walking cross country into a campsite, setting up camp and doing a series of day walks from the same campsite, either hunting or fishing in these remote areas. To this I add additional bushcraft activities such as supplementing food that has been carried in with locally sourced edibles and making tools/utensils that will be handy around camp (eg, chopping boards/coolamans, stirrers/scrapers etc, etc, etc ) and additional shelter when a change in weather occurs.

I do however have a wife who will raise the alarm if I don't turn up at the prearranged pickup spot within a couple of hours of the arranged time :thumbup:

Because of the differences in the details of the trips I do, I carry a fixed blade, folder & hatchet because all three have well & truly proven themselves when out in the wild.

I wouldn't worry about the accusations of being a troll. Some people seem to need the reassurance that comes from others agreeing with their stated opinions and get defensive when others challenge this

I wouldn't worry too much either about those who are constantly soiling their underware with thoughts about Mr Murphy and what can happen. IMO, it goes a long way to explain why they don't provide posts showing they spend any extended time in the wild

Look at a very recent example. How many of those who have raised the possibility of loosing your pack (& therefore all the additional resouces carried by the average multi day hiker as a reason for the essential need for a knife), have pointed this out to those who carry their main knife on the straps of their backpack in the recent thread "preferred knife carry when backpacking" here : http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=734121

There's a lot more I can say, but I reckon I've already said enough

Take care Beef.



Kind regards
Mick

 

[myright]

Is there really a 6 page thread about whether a knife is needed in the woods in the the W&SS subforum of BLADEforums?????? Oh the irony.

Hell - carry 'em all, big and small. Cut stuff and have fun fellas

 

[kgd]

As to skill sets, yes, I can use the firebow, hand drill, sparks from quartz etc. But I question whether I could use these skills with my fine motor skills shot from the cold, or adrenaline. Which is why I consider warm gear to be a safer bet.

The downside to this is that in many circumstances it can be near impossible keeping your clothing functionally warm. Unanticipated dunks, heavy sweating under rain gear that leaves you as wet as the rain itself and wet snow can make cause failure in clothing that otherwise should easily meet the task of keeping you warm.

I went out winter camping in Feb during a warm spell where it was routinely a few degrees above zero. The snow was wet and heavy and keeping yourself dry was a constant challenge. Having the fire and drying my essentials like socks was critical. That weekend would have been lost if we didn't have tools for processing wood and making fire.

High tech clothing never seems to live up to all its promises of keeping you dry and warm. Even gortex gets drowned out under heavy rain...The rain doesn't penetrate, but when the laminate gets saturated the varpor can't escape so you sweat from the inside.

 

[udtjim]

Warm gear is good, no doubt about that, Fire can sure help to keep it functional. I for one very seldom use my knife for any phase of the fire part. Where i camp and roam there is plenty of wood and I never count on a fire steel unless I am just out playing. When I am out, i have a good fire starting kit as well as a good tinder kit. If I want fire, I want in now and I don't want to count on anything but instant flame. Like I said though, if I am just out paying, then bring on the toys.

 

[mtnfolk mike]

is this thread for real?? of course knves are needed in the woods..

 

[coop1957]

Its sort like that American Express advertisement from years ago.
Don't leave home without it.
I don't go through daily life without a knife. Why would I walk into the woods without one.

 

[tonym]

Tony, I for one appreciated beef raising the issue and giving us something to debate this morning. I still think it's a fair question to pose as well. For guys who have been around the forum for a while and have picked up a few tips and tricks here, I bet we are better prepared to survive without a knife than your average man-off-the-street. I'd argue this decreases our need for a knife.

:

Hey Rotte,

I was being civil. I never called Beef a troll, I just stated why people may see his OP as trollish.
A thread on how we would survive with out a knife is a great idea. However that is not what I read in the OP. I read that Beef feels that a knife is not important to take in the woods. He even says it here.

Nope the knife just isn't considered essential.
.

Now that is his oppinion and I respect that. I do not share it what so ever.

A knife is a tool that can be used to help you in a number of ways to survive. It has many uses and for its size I feel it is more important than many of the things Beef prefers to carry. (That is my oppinion)

I have no problem with people disagreeing. It'd be boring if we all thought the same.

I do agree with that:thumbup:

Best regards,

Tony