Knock Offs and what I am doing about it.......Part II

Looks like the extortion part of their case just got blown out the window!

The ruling applies to variety of political and ideological protests, and its outcome was supported by many free-speech advocates, including some supporting abortion rights groups.

At issue was the fairness of using federal laws against racketeering and extortion to go after anti-abortion groups who use, according to the official Court filing, "sit-ins and demonstrations that obstruct public's access" to medical clinics.

Such anti-racketeering and extortion laws have normally been used by federal prosecutors to go after organized crime, and usually involve efforts to illegally obtain "property."

Chief Justice William Rehnquist, writing for the 8-1 majority, noted because the protesters "did not obtain or attempt to obtain [clinic] property, both the state extortion claims and the claim of attempting or conspiring to commit state extortion were fatally flawed."

The National Organization for Women first filed a lawsuit on behalf of the clinics in 1986, and the Court eight years later ruled in its favor. Leaders of the anti-abortion movement, including Operation Rescue and the Pro-Life Action Network, filed a new legal claim the justices heard last Fall.

As far back as the mid 1980s, anti-abortion groups began offering "classes" on clinic protest strategies, ranging from picketing and handling out leaflets, to activists chaining themselves to clinic doors. Some of the demonstrations turned into violent confrontations, including threats and attacks on patients and medical workers, even clinics that were destroyed.

While many of the protest tactics are protected free speech, NOW claimed the confrontations were planned and organized, and represented "a pattern of extortion." The group cited the Hobbs Act, a federal law that made it a crime to obstruct or affect interstate commerce "by robbery or extortion" when "induced by the wrongful use of actual or threatened force, violence and fear."

Anti-abortion groups objected, arguing an economic motive must be present in racketeering cases. The groups claim they did not profit financially from their protests.

The justices concluded anti-abortion activists certainly disrupted the clinics and crimes may have been committed during the protests. "But even when their acts of interference and disruption achieved their ultimate goal of 'shutting down' a clinic that performed abortions, such acts did not constitute extortion," said Rehnquist.

Justice John Paul Stevens was the lone dissenter in the case.
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The preceeding is from CNN

Basically this means that an organized protest can be brought against anyone. I was merely protesting that she was selling knock offs of BOSS designs. I made no extortion attempts. All I siad was to get rid of her inventory, this would in know way be a gain for me. Perfect timing, huh?
 
Originally posted by ichor
Not nearly as dim as you obviously are concerning the despicable actions of the Kennedys in this country, Joseph included. The fact that you have represented large American companies and practiced in NYC, only impresses me to the point that it places you higher on my $hit list. If you want to get personal we can take it off list, genius. Now, go chase an ambulance, or something .
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Ichor you are being incredibly stupid - no other way of putting it.

Let's see if that is a permanent state.

Don't give me any crap about "get(ting) personal". You made a particularly bad choice to spout off on that basis initially and you will wear it, be in no doubt about that. Any ridiculous list you have going there doesn't concern me in the slightest. Nor does anything about you or connected with you.

Here's a history lesson, about your own country. The evidence to support what I say is overwhelming.

You say "included" but I think on any reasonable analysis, Joseph Kennedy was the worst of them - and that's saying a fair bit. He made the family fortune, by various means including bootlegging during prohibition, criminal associations and so on. But the major portion of that fortune came from market rigging of the worst kind - insider trading, you name it, he did it.

He was also very pro-Nazi, which emerged during the period he was the US Ambassador to London (St James). This had some rather unfortunate consequences for the US before he was recalled, but never mind that now. The point is, he was a particularly bad apple that one, by all accounts.

BUT Joseph Kennedy was instrumental in cleaning up the US financial markets, even so. If I recall the sequence correctly, he was appointed by the US government to some senior post (forget the title now) for this purpose, pretty soon after the London disgrace. You see BECAUSE he had intimate knowledge of market manipulation and so on, he was very well placed to know how that kind of thing could be dealt with. Which he did - his fortune was already made, so to his mind, no reason not to. Much of the legislation enacted in consequence is still in operation today.

So consider that, and also go back and read again - I doubt if you ever did properly. Are you capable of understanding NOW? I can't say I'm optimistic, because the essence of this was clear to begin with, yet you still opted to put up some ridiculous gibe. And you have continued in that vein. If you aren't, you can be certain I'm not going to waste any more of my time. I'm just going to regard whatever you say as due to stupidity, or prejudice, or resentment, or ignorance, or whatever, or all of those. For bloody good reason. No way in hell you or anyone else is going to make me feel 'apologetic' or intimidated, for not suffering the same.

Go on then. Let anyone here of any substance see what you are REALLY worth, by how you respond, this time. But really, I'd suggest you don't waste your time with chest thumping remarks. In this instance, you'd have a better prospect trying to take out one of your Aircraft Carriers with a popgun.

I don't think I'll be here for a while incidentally. So take all the time you need. Also, I definitely wont be posting in this thread again.
 
Ichor and Switchied,

Take your personal b!tching to email, please. This thread is not about your egos.

~B.
 
Originally posted by Brian Jones
Ichor and Switchied,

Take your personal b!tching to email, please. This thread is not about your egos.

~B.
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No Doubt!! Half the replies in this thread have no bearing on the subject at hand, how to stop knock offs. Mike I think your are doing a great thing and I don't hold your past against you. I think that the only way to rid the world of inferior knives, mainly cheap stolen designs, is to get several manufactures together or makers and sue there arses off one at a time. Another good way is to work to educate folks on the value of a decent blade, it would be nice if they didn't have a market for this crap to begin with!!
 
Originally posted by switched
Ichor you are being incredibly stupid - no other way of putting it.

Let's see if that is a permanent state.

Don't give me any crap about "get(ting) personal". You made a particularly bad choice to spout off on that basis initially and you will wear it, be in no doubt about that. Any ridiculous list you have going there doesn't concern me in the slightest. Nor does anything about you or connected with you.

Here's a history lesson, about your own country. The evidence to support what I say is overwhelming.

You say "included" but I think on any reasonable analysis, Joseph Kennedy was the worst of them - and that's saying a fair bit. He made the family fortune, by various means including bootlegging during prohibition, criminal associations and so on. But the major portion of that fortune came from market rigging of the worst kind - insider trading, you name it, he did it.

He was also very pro-Nazi, which emerged during the period he was the US Ambassador to London (St James). This had some rather unfortunate consequences for the US before he was recalled, but never mind that now. The point is, he was a particularly bad apple that one, by all accounts.

BUT Joseph Kennedy was instrumental in cleaning up the US financial markets, even so. If I recall the sequence correctly, he was appointed by the US government to some senior post (forget the title now) for this purpose, pretty soon after the London disgrace. You see BECAUSE he had intimate knowledge of market manipulation and so on, he was very well placed to know how that kind of thing could be dealt with. Which he did - his fortune was already made, so to his mind, no reason not to. Much of the legislation enacted in consequence is still in operation today.

So consider that, and also go back and read again - I doubt if you ever did properly. Are you capable of understanding NOW? I can't say I'm optimistic, because the essence of this was clear to begin with, yet you still opted to put up some ridiculous gibe. And you have continued in that vein. If you aren't, you can be certain I'm not going to waste any more of my time. I'm just going to regard whatever you say as due to stupidity, or prejudice, or resentment, or ignorance, or whatever, or all of those. For bloody good reason. No way in hell you or anyone else is going to make me feel 'apologetic' or intimidated, for not suffering the same.

Go on then. Let anyone here of any substance see what you are REALLY worth, by how you respond, this time. But really, I'd suggest you don't waste your time with chest thumping remarks. In this instance, you'd have a better prospect trying to take out one of your Aircraft Carriers with a popgun.

I don't think I'll be here for a while incidentally. So take all the time you need. Also, I definitely wont be posting in this thread again.
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Since you , from all appearances, seem to be incredibly obtuse, I will try to spell it out for you. I made an observation which, admittedly, ridiculed your statement describing one of the Kennedys as some sort of reformed villan. You obviously have no grasp of American history so you should stick to something you know something about.

In regard to "getting personal", you responded, not with facts to support your statement, but with a personal attack (always the first choice of someone who lacks any solid ability to debate an issue).

Number one, a disparaging remark with regard to my intelligence. Two, an inference that, because I live in Boise, I'm some sort of unsophisticated hick. Three , concluded your post with "up yours" (you may be a dimwit, but at least you're not very creative). Then you iced the cake by trying to gain validity for your position by impressing everyone with your vast experience as a lawyer in the USA (BTW, you can be a stupid attorney in the USA as easily as in Australia).

Rather than continue trying to reason with someone who so obviously has very little reasoning ability (supported by the fact that you missed the entire point of both my posts) I will just conclude by repeating the astonishingly immature sign off that you used in your first reply. "Basically, up yours". (I also will not be posting anything further, with regard to this thread)
 
Originally posted by Brian Jones
Ichor and Switchied,

Take your personal b!tching to email, please. This thread is not about your egos.

~B.
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That's what I suggested to Switched, but he was too ignorant to understand what I said.
 
Already heading that direction BadGuy. It sure is nice to know several manufacturers personally and they have even given me the legal documents to bolster my case. Seem that if Alex thinks she does not sell knock offs she sure as hell has settled a few times. Things that make you go hummm.......

Mr. Bryan, Are you still reading this? I hope like hell you bring a copy of this thread to court. Would be a wonderful thing to use your own complaint against you.

So I will offer this one more time.

Drop your suit, tell your client to pay royalties to the makers that deserve it and guess what, all this goes away. I will sign a document stating that. You think your client can steal my work and that of those who work with me and get away with it? Dude you have no idea who I am or what I can do. Not a threat of violence or whatever. Just a promise that I will not let this issue die until we have closure (A term I thought I would never use :) )

I can protest till the day I die and guess what, you can't stop me!
Your client claims Mr. Tan made those designs. You better make certain you have him in court because I will prove that he and your client are both full of ****. Monty has already voiced his opinion in this thread. He desinged the DOD series and NOT Mr. Tan. Lion Mah desinged the Kerambit and not your Mr. Tan. David Winch desinged the Mini-Raptor and NOT your Mr. Tan.

Mr. Tan if you are out there why don't you show your face. If you have desinged so many knives why has NO ONE here EVER heard of you?

BTW Guys kevtan is not the Kevin Tan we are talking about.

You simply copied the designs already shown by BOSS. You meaning, Kevin Tan. You may be able to show that you copied them but you sure as hell can not show that you are the original designer. I laugh at you Mr. Tan, Mr. Bryan and Joy. See ya in court pal!

But you can still save the day by paying the royalties. You already settled with...... Opppsss never mind....

Don't you realize that your client has already been through this before? Are you the same lawyer that was served a cease and desist on July 13th, 2001 and then responded July 30, 2001 and then settled February 13th, 2002? Things that make ya go hummmm.......

Heck I may lose this thing but at least I know I was doing the right thing. And no I will not use BFC as my personal pulpit to bitch from.
 
Ichor and switched.

Please take your personal bitching offilne. This thread can be very entertaining but if you keep it up Spark will lock it.

So I ask you as a gentleman, please take it to email and let me fight my battle, live right here so you can all watch. Heck I may go down in flames and then you "TURBER" haters will be able to celebrate!

But I am doing this for all custom makers and manufacturers, even if they don't want "TURBER'S" help.
 
Is it safe to assume that until this whole "thing" gets resolved, the boss knife project as a whole is on hold?
 
Just in case this thread does get printed... after looking at some of the knives produced by Joy and similar knives that other people said Joy (or Mr. Tan) was knocking off... I, as a consumer, have a difficult if not impossible time telling the difference between the two.

Joy might not be guilty according to the letter of the law. The photo of the lady removing the specific knives in conjunction with the look on her face says it all. Good people (and honest companies) don't do things like this and while being a bad person isn't necessarily against the law, it probably doesn't help business and ends up hurting the TRUE designer.
 
Originally posted by krept
Just in case this thread does get printed... after looking at some of the knives produced by Joy and similar knives that other people said Joy (or Mr. Tan) was knocking off... I, as a consumer, have a difficult if not impossible time telling the difference between the two.

Joy might not be guilty according to the letter of the law. The photo of the lady removing the specific knives in conjunction with the look on her face says it all. Good people (and honest companies) don't do things like this and while being a bad person isn't necessarily against the law, it probably doesn't help business and ends up hurting the TRUE designer.
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I must be misunderstanding you. You cant tell the difference in knockoffs and what? The Original Or the one's mike was supposedly making? No flame just wondering..........R
 
Some of the designs that were posted a page or two ago look just like knives that other makers produced. What I'm saying is that if this goes to court and there is a statement like "our knives are not copies, we use a different sized screw" or some BS like that, a generic consumer like me would get confused. Keep in mind that I might order these things from the internet, going only off of a picture and not get to feel the materials, strength of the lockup, etc. and not know that it's not the original design that people recommended to me.

People (the leeches) biting other people's (the artists or engineers) designs and selling them is lame. It is far worse to claim that the design is your own and this should be cause for great shame.

This Mr. Tan fellow is clearly the renaissance man of knifemaking if he came up with all of the unique designs (some of which are designed for a specific use, such as the Wortac). If it turnes out that the distributors are going to claim "but Mr. Tan emphatically swore that these designs were his and we took his word for it!" then boo to them for not investigating this matter when originally confronted with the evidence.

I think it SUCKS when the big company steps on the little guy like with all that legalese especially when the little guy (the designer here and if Mike designed some of them then it applies to him too) is in the right. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that is certainly the way it appears here to me. I'll keep an open mind about this.

If Joy Enterprises has a side to this besides some mystery man making all of these diverse designs, I'd sure as hell like to hear it. If they are a reputable company like they are made out to be then they or their hired hand will help them out.

I'm just going to leave it at that for now.
 
Mr. Turber, (Mike)
If I can ask, how old are you?
From the best I can tell you're not very experienced in anything other than arrogance, and I know this will piss you off and I apologize, but it baffles me that you would not only NOT hire an attorney to represent you, but you openly express the fact that you broke the rules at the show and used a camera, verbally assaulted the employee(s) of Joy Enterprises, have not provided any PROOF of "stolen" designs (patent #'s, Copywright license)(yeah yeah, I get the bit "well, it looks like it"), you search the net for "information" about your case...are you serious?

Look, I completely understand you're pissed off at knock-offs and that's great, more power to ya, but if you're only going to fight like a pissant, what's the point?

And I still haven't heard ANYTHING about the Pakistan knock-offs, why don't you go after them, they're a bigger problem than Joy...You said yourself Joy was smalltime.

All i'm gettin' out of this is listening to you bitch and moan about Joy...but THEY filed a lawsuit, does this concern you at all or are you so ignorant to belive you're untouchable? You mentioned earlier "company's" sent you forms...where's the friggin lawyers partner, who's protecting you from having to pay Joy $50,000.00? (just a figure, it could be anything) Does this make sense to anyone? Or am I by myself?
 
Some info for those who have their knives made in China: And I quote;
"copywright laws are
ineffective in China allowing Chinese `entrepreneurs' to imitate ANY
product found on shop shelves outside China without paying ANY research and
development costs. The above add up to the flooding by Chinese produced
goods of any market that is deserted by governments and thus ruled by cheap
prices alone"

This exerpt was/is located http://www.pl.net/6business/inauer.htm
 
Hey, I've sort of been watching this. What's going on with Mike Turber and the stuff with the knives?
 
Originally posted by jletcher
Hey, I've sort of been watching this. What's going on with Mike Turber and the stuff with the knives?
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Originally posted by jletcher
Hey, I've sort of been watching this. What's going on with Mike Turber and the stuff with the knives?
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Oh Pleeeeze this is an obvious attempt to stir everything back up unless you are just completly gone.There are 8 pages of what's going on here read it and sorta pay attention or have someone read it for you.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 
Mike I saw 2 broadcasts from a major TV Shopping Network, 1 of them was for Frost Cutlery. 90% of these knifes appeared to be copies of many custom and licenced repros, of custom knives these were being sold at the ,"Incredibly low price of a $1.42 each for 130 knives", some were even said to be like the ones used in several US Goverment Agencies.

I can kinda understand how it's hard to control what goes on half way around the world, but how can a company like Frost,(who started out selling lower end knives and "Mass Produced Collectables") get away with selling the same knock offs as Joy?

I buy and sell knives like many here on the forums, and I find it difficult to compete with the people in the flea markets selling the same knockoffs for $10-$20 a shot. Most people would rather buy a POS, than spend the money to buy even a used original. I do have to admit that educating people on the differences between quality and cheap knives is not always worth it to make a few dollars on a quality blade.

The temtaption to buy cheap and sell high, and let the buyer beware, is very strong sometimes, I keep thinking who's gonna get hurt if I sell a few, hell if I don't, some one else will.

Maybe it's this thread, or my desire to just do what's right, but you won't see me making money off someone elses design, unless they get compensated for the design.

Thanks for an informative thread and good luck.
 
What's the word Mike. WE havent heard fromyou in two weeks, at least on this issue. What's cookin'?
 
Just weighing my options guys and keeping them all open and targets in sight.

No more news for now and nothing will be broadcast in advance. I have too much going on right now to let this crap with Joy slow me down. The knife industry only accounts for about 5% of my income and about 30%-40% of my time. Maybe time to cut it loose or toss the ball to someone else and let them run for a bit.

I will keep you updated as major changes come along.
 
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