Knock Offs and what I am doing about it.......Part II

Originally posted by ichor
Joseph Kennedy . Oh, yes(stifles snort with hand). Certainly my patron saint of good guys.

Thanks for this pearl of wisdom from an Australian lawyer, or what?

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Ichor how dim are you exactly? The point you are snorting away about there in good old Boise, is the same one I was making to begin with.

Yes an Australian lawyer. Who has acted for quite a number of American companies - very large ones - and includes 3 years practice in NYC.

So up yours, basically.

I must admit to one thing though. I feel pretty ridiculous, having posted in this thread at all.
 
CRKT/Gerber http://204.106.14.101/product.asp?product=18026&dept=5
anderson? (all colors) http://204.106.14.101/product.asp?product=88056&dept=5
smith&wesson http://204.106.14.101/product.asp?product=10804&dept=22
microtech (wow!) http://204.106.14.101/product.asp?product=44488&dept=22
CKRT http://204.106.14.101/product.asp?product=88014&dept=22
gerber (wood instead of kraton) http://204.106.14.101/product.asp?product=88054&dept=22
colt http://204.106.14.101/product.asp?product=88049&dept=25
of course, they are all just a little bit different from the o.g. knives they emulate but that is enough to get around whatever patents may exist.
 
A.G. I am sorry I missed your post earlier. The Lile knives you see on the www.wowinc.com site are made with permission.

The agreement with Lile is with Provantus and AJ and not me as Lile is not actually a BOSS product but more an Alton James project inside of Provantus and him directly. My understanding is that the LILE name and rights are from Jackie and not directly from Mary. Both Mary and Jackie sat with AJ and I at the Blade Show awards ceremony and the Lile collaboration knives where even being sold at the Lile table in the show. I am not sure what she was thinking when you asked. Maybe she thought you were referring to the United Cutlery knives which never paid Jimmy one dime. All he got out of the deal with United was the ability to say he made the Rambo knives.

We have already made the Regualr #7, The #1, The Hunter and the Sly II are going into production as we speak.

They are really great knives and I would be happy to send you one as a sample. Just email me your address.
 
 
I wonder how this saga will play out...

But most of all I am sad that I wonder how this saga will play out :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 
I do not see where the suit has anything to do with knockoffs, but has to do with the conduct and actions of Mike Turber. All of this would be irrelevant to the case unless Mike files a counter-suit.
And I have got to believe that the Plaintiffs are serious since they have filed suit and threfore are prepared to spend the resources necessary to prevail.

Mike, as your sig line says; "Do it RIGHT now", I would suggest you cease holding Court in this thread and get your team of Lawyers moving on this ASAP.

And keep in mind that if all you intend on doing is defending your actions at the SHOT show, the rest of this stuff concerning the knock-offs of others is not germain to any of the counts in the suit naming you as a Defendant.

Looks like you are going to need some resources to defend, which can be more expensive.

And a person who represents himself in Court has a FOOL for a Client................................
 
I wonder who's this one is?? :( I love the detail in the pattern on the handle :confused::barf:

http://204.106.14.101/product.asp?product=88044&dept=5

Mr. Bryan,

My feeling is that the links posted above represent the total exploitation of quite a few custom knifemakers. Please realize that a LOT of time, money, ingenuity, blood, sweat and TEARS go into developing these designs. Most makers don't have the time OR money to properly protect them. I'm sure that there are some kind of loopholes in the laws that will allow such exploitation. Do you or the company you represent feel that it is right to produce such copies?? Your thoughts on this would be much appreciated.



Neil Blackwood
 
The case is not geared towards the knock offs but more so in the direction of libel, slander and defamation. To prove any of the three you would have to prove that I was not telling the truth. If Joy can prove that the designs are theirs or that of Mr. Tan then I will me amazed! The laws of probability that would allow for 3 designers coming up with these designs and then 1 Mt. Tan coming up with identical designs at nearly the exact same time are staggering.

The fact that nearly every knife they sell is a knock would make it even more staggering and I am sure any court would have to agree that they sell knock offs.

Joy has a limited window of opportunity here to settle this before going to court or through lawyers even. Once I have to spend 1 actual dime on this case I promise a counter suit will be served as this attorney, Mr. Bryan, by merely publishing the complaint here has in fact defamed me.
 
Whatever the consequences of a lawsuit against Mike may be, they really have nothing to do with the original topic of this thread. That being the knocking-off of the designs of custom makers and manufacturers and what is being done to stop it.

This is part of an email that I sent to Joy Enterprises/Fox Cutlery:

Even though Joy Enterprises is not the manufacturer of these
knock-offs, without the assistance of companies like yours these
manufacturers would not have middlemen to peddle their wares. It is the turning of a blind eye by companies like yours that supports these
knock-off manufacturers in their endeavours. You are perpetuating the
theft of these designs.

I think the time has come for the knife community to do what it can to
put a stop to this type of business practice. Maybe an email, letter
and telephone campaign by knife lovers to the people putting on knife
shows stating that they will be boycotted if they allow companies that
sell knock-offs to display these products would be a good start. Though I understand the reluctance of knife magazines to lose advertising revenue, the possibility of a few thousand subscription cancellations might just convince them not to accept ads from the sellers of Knock-offs. The above could be orchestrated in a matter of days.

Yours very sincerely,
Keith Montgomery.
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Maybe it is time for the rest of us to get off our collectives asses, and to start doing something about this ourselves. When it comes to the fighting of these manufacturers of knock-offs and the people that sell them, Mike should be getting the full support of the members of the knife community.
 
Thats not a bad idea Keith.

To add to that, I dont think that the arguement that they dont actually make the knives is valid for them to use. Lots of companies are that way. Spyderco, SOG, Gerber, Al Mar and many others dont make many of their own knives either. They contract to have their designs made. They put their time, effort and money into the products that have their name on them.

Unfortunately in todays world of little to no ethics, these rip-off artists have a pretty easy time. Mike obviously did not do enough to protect his designers knives legally. In an ideal world he should not have to worry about such things. Of course there is always some vulture waiting to swipe somebody elses work and make a quick buck. These are the sme people that might get a clerk at a store who mistakenly gives them to much change back...they might notice and not say a word, instead they will just keep the money.

I forget who it was, might have been Bud Lang and was either in Blade or Knives Illustrated, but they made a statement in an opinion piece that said "It may not be illegal, but it sure is immoral".


Mike, this thread started as one against rip-offs. You wanted people to rally behind you against this type of thing. Now that you have a general idea that most people are with you, you come back and say its about their lawyer defaming you and not so much about rip-offs? Which is it. A lawyers job is to work for his client and do his job based on what his client tells him. Thats what this guy is doing...his job. I would suspect that no matter how much "feel good support" you get here, it wont help you much at all. You need legal advice. Afterall, you would not call a plumber if you were sick, or a doctor if your drain was stopped up would you? You are probably best off to let professionals handle what they are good at.
 
I haven't bought one clone made in China or any where else for that matter, that's how we can fight it i believe and that goes for any knife not made from someone i trust including WOW and BOSS knifes, there all POS IMO and do nothing but make money for those who don't care who they hurt!

James
 
Thank you Keith I appreciate your support.

Folks many of the knock off battles are faught behind the scenes. Here is part of the problem and why very little has been or can be done.

Most custom knife makers do not have the money to patent each and every design they make. A patent costs anywhere from $3,000 - $7,000 and a knife maker is lucky to profit that much in a year on ALL of his/her designs. Then to compound the problem the knife is usually already being sold and after it has entered into the market you can no longer patent it. Many of you have expressed that if someone is so passionate about protecting their design they should have patented it. Well some people just can not afford to do so. So people like Joy and others can simply sell knock offs and their is very little that can be done.

But there is a lot you can actually do as Keith has eluded to.

Richard,

I was referring to the complaint they filed. That is what they are interested in pursueing. I would venture a good guess that if all the manufacturers got together and filed a complaint against Joy for selling copies of their work they may be able to make a difference. Here is where I am going with this.

Each knife you see on the market may not have a patent. But each knife is under copyright law. In following that doctrine you can see that if a copy of your artwork is produced then it can not appear on a web site, catalog or any other type of media. Since virtually all of Joy's products are knock offs then it would be easier to go after her for copyright infringement. It sure is hard to sell knives with no way to show them to potential customers. Also to file suit we would need to register a copyright for each knife shown on her site and in her catalog. This would cost a good bit but nowhere near the cost of patents.

Or Joy can agree to pay royalties, maybe the makers would go for that as a solution.

It would be extremely easy to raise the funds to file copyrights on behalf of the custom knife makers. It would require the assistance of an organized group like AKTI and all it's members. Here is an idea.

Take each knife shown on Joy's web site and catalog and get the original owner to copyright their original work. Cost, about $30 each. Then after all has been done get the manufacturers together to file a class action law suit against Joy for copyright infringement.

This might be the best way to do this, then after we have do this we take on each and every other company the same way. It would take a little time but I already have companies ready to do this. If there is no longer in profit in selling knock offs then the knock off companies will move into other products or start doing legitimate designs on their own. In effect it would help them in the long run.
 
Originally posted by switched
Ichor how dim are you exactly? The point you are snorting away about there in good old Boise, is the same one I was making to begin with.

Yes an Australian lawyer. Who has acted for quite a number of American companies - very large ones - and includes 3 years practice in NYC.

So up yours, basically.

I must admit to one thing though. I feel pretty ridiculous, having posted in this thread at all.
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Not nearly as dim as you obviously are concerning the despicable actions of the Kennedys in this country, Joseph included. The fact that you have represented large American companies and practiced in NYC, only impresses me to the point that it places you higher on my $hit list. If you want to get personal we can take it off list, genius. Now, go chase an ambulance, or something .
 
I haven't bought one clone made in China or any where else for that matter, that's how we can fight it i believe and that goes for any knife not made from someone i trust including WOW and BOSS knifes, there all POS IMO and do nothing but make money for those who don't care who they hurt!
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APM,
You are confused. All of the BOSS knives are designed by people who are members of this board. None of them, count them, ZERO, are knock-offs. The intent of BOSS knives is to have ORIGINAL designs come out of China, and for the designers of these ORIGINAL designs to be paid for their efforts. I repeat, there are NO CLONES in the BOSS line-up. The only part of your post that is correct is that they are made in China. If that is your beef, then stick to that. The rest of your post is way off base. You have seen none of the BOSS knives in person, so your assertion that "there all POS IMO" is pure conjecture, with no evidence. Speak up when you know what you are talking about.
To the other members of this board, please pardon my rant. This is the first time, I believe, since I have been a member of this board that I have been angered by anything written here.
 
Using a “principle” and those who support it to dig yourself out of a hole is the sign of a desperate men.
Would saint Turber taken the high moral ground if his own products were not being threatened by practises that he once subscribed to himself?
I think not.
It may not change the world, but I for one will not buy anything tainted by BOSS or WOW.
 
This is my opinion regarding Mike Turber and selling knock-offs.
From reading posts and articles written by Mike, I believe that he stopped selling knock-offs because he came to the conclusion that it was not an ethical practice. I don't believe in holding past actions against anyone. If you want to hold a grudge because of things done in the past that is your prerogative, but it doesn't solve any problem. Regardless of what was done in the past, I feel that Mike is doing the right thing now. Does it make any difference that he is protecting his company's designs and not all of the other companies that have been knocked off? Not one bit. It is not Mike's right or responsibility to protect the designs of another company. If Kershaw, Benchmade, or any of the other companies want their designs protected, that is their own responsibility. Mike is not only trying to protect his own business, he is attempting to protect the designs and possible income of several members of this board, including mine. I may have a different view of this because I am directly involved, but I feel my view is valid nonetheless.
 
As it seems that they are selling counterfeit copies, that were illegally imported, of many manufacturers, I think that if these manufactures filed a complaint with the local authorities at the location of the next show, something might be done. No individual can sucessfully fight this battle, it will take a joint effort by the large manufacturers. If the MT's, Kershaws, Gerbers, Benchmades etc. don't care about the copies, then little will happen. If you really want to stop this Mike, organize the manufactures to take action. American companies protecting American jobs may be better received by the authorities.
 
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