Lack Of Interest?

notdos

notdos

Joined
Oct 2, 2000
Messages
1,496
I've noticed over the past 6 months or so a change in BladeForums and wondered if others had noticed. It seems that there is less discussion and generally less interest in Custom knives. If this is true, is it because people who are interested in Customs are going elsewhere? If this is true, why are they leaving? It seems to me that if this is the case, it's pretty serious.
It would be a shame if the largest knife discussion board became solely focused on production knives.

Phillip:)
 
Phillip,
I disagree. To me, there has been more interest here in Custom in the last 6 months than in the year before.
Not as much in threads as posts and good discussions.
 
The bad economy may have many people holding back on customs and looking more at production models. I know that I have definitely cut back on my custom purchases from what they were a year ago.
 
Phillip,

I think you are onto something. But, what has changes is that we have lost some of the fanatical camp followers that use to hang here. I remember a few months ago when posting the word "Maddog" meant an instant flame war, the Sebenza was the only folder worth having, and the Busse Battle Mistress was the answer to everything from chopping down redwoods to trimming your cuticles.

That is probably a good thing. At least now we are able to have a frank and open discussion without the constant drone, or emotional mine field.

n2s
 
Since the custom knife forum was once again opened to the posting of pictures, I have noticed a rather large increase in the traffic on this forum. We have also been getting posts by quite a few more makers in the last little while. That is a very good thing for this forum as the willingness of these makers to share their knowledge that will help make this a great forum. There are also many other very knowledgeable people that take part on this forum.

The topics we are getting are often very good and the discussions in many of the threads have been of great interest to me at least and hopefully to others as well.

A couple of months ago this forum was next to dead. Things have improved greatly since then and I think they will continue to do so.
 
I might add that the discussions here are not only informative, but very gentlemanly. Spirited discussions where everyone comes away knowing more and more about knives and the makers.
 
Hi Phil,

One of the main disadvantages I see with Bladeforums is that people belive this represents what is truly going on in the knife world.

Point of fact, it only represents what the members of Bladeforums think. To this end, it is very limited. As there are maybe 100 custom knife buyers on this forum.

If you look at the posts, it's generally the same 50 people. If you go over to the forsale forum, it's the same 50-75 sellers.

This does not mean that there is not some accuracy in how they view the market and its current condition.

As somone who watches the current market on a daily basis. I can tell you it is a free for all out there. A few years back it was much easier to track what was hot, what was not.

I think one thing the Internet forums have done is give collectors exposure to new makers, materials, styles, etc. Consequently, there are many makers who benefit from this.

I have noticed a couple of trends:

1) Collectors are spending more money per knife. This would seem odd on the surface. It appears what has happened is the collectors have less disposable income now. I don't think their salary has decreased as much as they are now focusing on reducing debt.

Having seen some of the more "common" custom knives take a beating in the aftermarket. Many have learned the lesson that it can be better long term to buy a $500 knife than it is to buy 2 $250 knives.

2) Collectors are focusing on proven winners. While at the East Coast Custom Knife Show this past March. My buddy Bob Neal was selling $1,500 - $2,500 knives like they were $500 knives.

Of course Bob carries the good stuff, so there are a lot of collectors looking for him at the New York shows. The knives he was selling were: Jess Horn, Michael Walker, Jack Busfield and Tony Bose. The Busfield and Bose knives were multi-blades.

While Bob has an excellent selection of folders. He was selling the higher end knives. The same was true for many of the other dealers and a lot of the makers at that show. If the economy is so bad, these knives should not have been selling like they were.

3) Makers who are keeping their names out there with an Internet presence, advertising and show attendance. Are generally doing better than those who are not. With so much competition out there among the knife makers, name recognition is more important now than ever before.

Just think of the Blade Show and it's 400 tables of custom knives or the Guild SHow and it's 350 tables of custom knvies. How many of those makers do you know? How many of those makers have you even heard of? There is some fantastic work out there from makers you never heard of.

However, for the maker to move past being the best maker you never heard of. To improving their position in a particular market. They have to get their name and work out there. They can do it without a web site...it will just take a few more years.

4) Attrition. The market giveth and the market taketh away. There are some well known as well as some entry level makers that are feelig the heat right now. Just as there are some dealers feeling the heat right now.

Matter of fact, with regards to knife dealers in the near future information will come to light that will stun some in the custom knife community. Im sure it wil be a subject of conversation for many at the Blade Show.

The econonmy is always bad for some one. Sometimes this is a real reason for business slowing down. Other times it is just an excuse.

Versatility is one of the keys for success. No matter what the business you have to be able to deliver what the customers want.

Not2Sharp,

I was confused by your comments. Why would people talk about factory knives :D in the custom forum? Maybe that kept some people away.
 
Originally posted by Les Robertson

4) Attrition. The market giveth and the market taketh away. There are some well known as well as some entry level makers that are feelig the heat right now. Just as there are some dealers feeling the heat right now.
Click to expand...

What's the main cause of attrition typically?
 
I was confused by your comments. Why would people talk about factory knives in the custom forum? Maybe that kept some people away.
Click to expand...

Les, "factory knives" are as much a part of the "custom knife" market as anything else. They are an alternative for our dollars and a yardstick by which minimal performance is set. Why should we pay a premium for a custom knife unless it exceeds the quality of the factory examples on some level? It is natural to compare, a TOPS "factory" Tracker knife, to Beck's "custom" Wilderness survival knife.

Some makers might be uncomfortable with the comparison, and that is unfortunate; but, it is a comparison that the market place is making every day. If you can't grind a straight line, or fit a decent handle, you should be uncomfortable. But, we should strive to maintain an enviroment conducive to making that comparison. In the past some makers were having a problem getting their message across. They were unfairly drowned out by a relentless advocacy which seems to have quieted down some. We are doing better now, and I hope that this continues.

n2s
 
N2S,

I can see why you want to lump all knives together. This is the marketing strategy that the factory guys have been using for 8 years now.

This is why they seek out a popular maker and copy their knife. Then try and draw a parallel.

However, the fact remains factory knives are not custom.

Casio makes a great watch...but it's not a Rolex.

Chevy makes the Impala...but it's not the Corvette.

There are "custom knife" dealers who sell factory knives. Why don't they just call themselves "knife dealers".

Factory knives are an alternative to custom knives. Own the design by the world class maker for less money. This appeals to those who either can't afford the real thing or choose not to spend the money on the real thing.

I have to disagree that factory knives are as much a part of custom knives as anything else. Fact is if it wasn't for custom knives, most of the companies that produce factory knives would have a very different look.

If it weren't for Ken Onion, do you think Kershaw would be around. How About CRKT? They started using a custom knife makers KISS and went from there. The examples are numerous. Don't get me wrong, the guys at Kershaw and CRKT should all get a bounus every year. What they did was stroke of genius.

Fact remains...factory knives are not custom knives.

I was one of the more vocal advocates to get rid of factory knives out of this forum. I was one of the more vocal advocates to get rid of factory, semi-custom and mid-tech's out of the custom knife for-sale forum.

Part of what annoyed so many people about the custom for sale forum before Spark changed it.

You would see Emerson, Carson, Ralph, Lightfoot and Terzuola for sale.

Only to find out it was a Benchmade, CRKT, Outdoor Edge, Timberline and Spyderco.

This of course is exactly what the factories pay the makers those roaylty checks for.

Why is it that you think the person who would post an ad like that didn't list it by the factory knives? The answer is simple; they were trying to improve the position of their product. They mislead you to get you to look at the ad.

N2S, just because the factories are trying to price them like the custom knives...doesn't mean they are.

If you want to see what the factories will be doing two years from now. Look at the new custom knives being built today!

I think one of the reasons the custom forum has gotten better is because factory knife posts are immediately re-directed to where they should be.

Additionally, I think Spark spelling it out on the custom knives for sale forum that Busse, Reeve and Randalls are not custom knives. Has moved alot of those members to the forums where their comments will be appreciated.

So some of the confusion has been cleared up. Most forum members who have been around for awhile now know where to find threads and posts in regards to the knives they are interested in.

Additionally, the forum has matured. Members try and discuss things rationally, rather than threatining to kick someone's ass because they "dissed" their favorite maker.
 
Hi Joss,

The availablity of information on the Internet is a double edged sword. If you are making a great knife at a great price. Your stock can soar dramatically in a short period of time.

Take new makers like Mike Obenauf, Mike Snody, Charles Marlow, Neil Blackwood, Terry Primos and Dan Farr for instance.

Conversely, if you are producing an inferior product, you have lousy customer service and/or you pricing is out of line with the market. You will be identified and hammered. You can look at the Good Band the Ugly right here on Blade Forums.
Check out how Allen Blade and Dale Reif are fairing on there.

When times get a little tough. I think the price point has more to do with attrition than anything else. Makers who charge to much get hit pretty hard. Dealers who add a premium, then who want stand behind the knives they sell get hammered as well.

When collectors have less money to spend. Typically they will look for the best bargain. They will be a little slower to "pull the trigger". Addtionally, with less disposable income they are more like to focus on 2 or 3 makers instead of 10. This is good for the 2-3 but bad for the 7-8 that the collector no longer buys from.

Time and time again, right here in this forum I was told that whether a knife will hold it's value in the aftermarket makes no difference. I think what your seeing now is the fact that many buyers are now choosing their knives with at least a side glance to the after market.

The lessons of attrition are being taught every day in the custom knife for sale markets all over the world.
 
I am really enjoying keeping up with this thread. Thanks to you all.
jf
 
Les brings up some good points again (is anyone surprised).

I strongly feel that the quality of information has improved in the last few months, at the same time this place is a microcosim of the Custom knife arena. There are excellent makers that are seldom spoken of here, there are several styles that do not get much discussion also.

That does not mean they are not popular, it just means that the interest of many who participate on the forums just is not there. Sometimes I have been reluctant to discuss certain things here due to the labels that has been thrown around in ignorance. Examples include:
Damascus means bad using knife. Art Knives are just art, they can not function as a knife. etc. If it is not one of a kind and made for you, it is not a custom knife (my dictionary tells me so:)). Rather than continue arguing those points many of us just want to enjoy our passion and have learned to shut up over the years. Better to stay quiet than to be labeled elitest by someone who does not even know you.

Since things were opened up a little this forum has seemed to have attracted more knowledgable folks and better threads. It was also a good idea to get some new mods in here at the same time. (Blues and I can take a little credit for that one :D). Darby and Randy have done an excellent job in jacking the place up again. This place used to be my favorite knife spot on the net and we are getting back to those roots again with a more knowledgable (and mature - in the terms of collecting) base of participants. Now matter what, we can not surpass what happens at shows and the knowledge that can be obtained there.
 
Phil,

Lack of interest?? No, lack of time!!

Come one down to Florida and help me out.....then I'll be able to spend more time cruising the forums;) :)
 
Lots of interesting comments. I would still submit that as a whole the Custom "excitement" has lessened considerably on this forum. There seems to be no real excitement towards any specific custom or maker. It seems to me that not so long ago it was clear from the posts what maker and what style was hot. A year ago you could post certain makers names in forums from "for sale" to "discussion" and there would be a rush to discuss or purchase. Maybe it's just my perception but now it seems that there are more people interested in which CRKT is coolest(no offense to CRKT lovers everywhere)than what new Custom is coolest.

Phillip :)
 
Phillip,
I misread your initial post. I thought you were talking about this (Custom) forum. I finally mastered speiling and now need to work on my rieding skills :D
I would agree with you that the General and Knife Review & Testing Forums are more factory, but imho, they always have been.
 
Les,

As usual, I agree with almost everything you said. I do however believe you can not so easily dismiss the impact of factory knives on the market. While many of them are now pre-existing knives of makers, many collectors/buyers have often never heard of the maker or the design prior to the collaboration. That leads the buyer to further reasearch the maker, the maker's other designs, and the possible purchase of knives from that maker.
Case in point, I didn't really know who Elishewitz, Pardue, or Boguszewiski (sp?) was until I saw some of their knives in various catalogs or stores that sold benchmade knives. I researched the makers online and in magazines and saw thay made much more then simply the designs BM was offering. This led me to find BladeForums and other various online knife resources where I learned a great deal about custom knives and the multitude of custom makers. Also, reading knife magazines became even a more critical part of my knife time.
At that point, I had decided that I was only gonna buy factory knives, because there was no way a custom could be worth 4-10 times what you paid for the similar factory design. Then, I decided that factory fixed blades weren't really much, if any, cheaper then custom. So, I decided to buy only custom fixed blades and factory folders. Then, I decided I needed one really good custom folder, as I could get one for the same price as 2 or 3 of the fixed blades I was buying. Now, I have 6 carson folders, 2 Mike Obenauf Folders (1 more on order) an Alan Foltz folder, and a slip joint from Gary Crowder. I've owned and parted ways with folders from the likes of JW Smith, Carson, and Deryk Munroe.
While the forums, talking with other collectors and makers, and the major knife publications had by far the biggest influence on my turn towards customs, I never would have made the effort to research and seek that road if not for the factory knives.

JR
 
Kit,

I was with you. I thought he was talking specifically about this forum as well.

Phil, of course there is more talk about factory knives here. With 15,000 members and less than 100 of them buying custom knives on a regular basis. Custom knives don't stand a chance in the other forums.

Remember, world wide custom knife sales and use probably makes up less than 1% of all knives.
 
Hi JR,

You validate my point exactly. If it were not for the custom makers, like the one's you spoke of. Where would the factory knife market be? They wouldn't be selling knives for over $100 in many cases.

Yes, it is true that many custom knife buyers get introduced to and ultimately buy custom knives because of factory knives.

However, with the advent of the Internet as well as the numerous shows in the US and abroad. The factory knives are not as necessary as they were even 5 years ago. Ultimately, those collectors inclined to purchase custom knives would find them.

I would submit to you that it would be even more prestigious to own a custom knife if there were no factory versions.

Additionally, there would be no confusion when a collector was selling a knife and listed it by the makers name. Instead of the factory that produced it.
 
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