Lack Of Interest?

Again,,maybe it's just me...Since my terminology may have caused some confusion,,I'm refering to this site in general.

Hi Les, I would agree that based solely on total membership that certainly more of that 15,000 is going to be production oriented.

However,, I would also say that of the regular posters a larger percentage of custom oriented members existed then than do currently, which is what led me to post this. Where did they go? It just seems less oriented toward Custom knife discussion, buying and selling than at anytime in my short time as a member.
Since I seem to be the only person to see it this way, I may be wrong :D

Phillip
 
Hi Phil,

I think that many of the threads get re-hashed over and over again. So this may decrease posts from the regulars.

Also, this forum has a tendecy (especially in the past) to pick a maker as the flavor of the month. Much of what was posted centered around that makers new knives for 6 months or so.

As the new flavor of the month appeared the previous flavor was talked about less and less. Until you saw their knives start to show up on the for sale forum.

I think this narrow focus may have driven away some makers. Danbo, Keith M and Roger P have infused alot of ABS makers on to the forum. They have introduced me to Nick Wheeler and Russ Andrews. That was worth the price of admission right there.

I would like to see more makers talked about on the custom forum. There are a lot of talented makers out there who get no love from Blade Forums.

For myself I did minimal posts for the first 4 months of the year. As I had too many other things going on. I stopped in and read what was being posted, just decied to lurk for awhile.

Perhaps this is happening with others.

While you may be right about the number of posters. The quality of the threads seems to have really picked up over the last 4-5 weeks.
 
I never really did notice that very many BFC members were custom knife nuts. There have been a few that have drifted away and I have not noticed very many of the newer members taking part in discussions about custom knives. That will come in time I think. As they get more educated about knives you will see many members wanting to know more about custom knives. We should be doing everything we can promote this.

Edited to fill in a missing word.
 
Being that you've asked 3 times now, and no one has 'as of yet' answered the obvious...

The 'trendy new, custom knife de jeur' kiddies ran off to USN, to impress all their 'friends' with their 'buy today, sell tomorrow' knives...

Collectors of the 'rare and valuable' collectible knives slipped over to KFC...

True 'custom' makers like Kit and Neil are up to their ears in back orders...

The market still sucks, and most makers at the last 3 'big' shows I've been to are coming to grips with that, all the while talking of it...

A few names still sell, but most don't...

And some Purveyor's are still declaring that 'all is well'...

These are the 'Day's of Our Knives' as Rob S. once put it...

Hope that helps...YMMV

Mel
 
Hi Mel,

Good observation about the USN. The few times I went there before I was banned (seems I wouldn't argue enought to Eric Blairs satisfaction). It is a herd mentality. Say one bad word about a maker they like and it's gang bang time. For my part Im glad that attitude has left Blade Forum.

What were the last 3 Big Custom Knife Shows you went to?

My last three custom knife shows were the 2 New York Shows and Las Vegas. The New York Shows had excellent sales. However, Vegas was on it's ass. Had it not been for Ken Onion being at the show, it would have been even worse. I think Jan 17th is too early for a show. That is just about the time that people are getting their credit card statements for Christmas.

Which makers are telling you the market sucks?

What I am finding is the custom knife market is very strong for those makers who:

Show versatility in their designs and the materials they will work.

Understand that the knives should be made to the desires and specifications of the person buying the knife.

Have good to excellent people skills.

Deliver on time.

Provide quality knives for the money.

Keep their name out there through; advertising, Internet presence and show attendance.

Additionally, the market is flushed with custom knives. As people are selling a lot of custom knives in the aftermarket.

Probably alot of these makers don't realize that they are not only competing with other makers. To a large degree they are competing with themselves.

Why buy a new knife for an EDC. When you can get the same thing with a few scratches on the bolster for $100 under retail.

The Purveyors you speak of. Were they telling you that all is well (with them or the market)?

I have been a full time dealer for over 8 years now. Every year my sales have increased on average of 23%. My best sales year ever was 2002.

I think you will find that purveyors are a little more sensative to what the market is really doing. As they have a huge advantage. In that they talk to thousands..tens of thousands of custom knife buyers every year. This allows us to re-adjust our strategy as often as is necessary to insure we have the knives our clients want. This is obviously much more difficult, if not impossible for makers to do on a regular basis.

These makers you talked to at the shows. Did you ask them how their internet sales are doing?

Overall sales at shows have slowed and will continue to do so. I think this would have happened even if the economy was in better shape.

I think the hassels of flying have more to do with slow shows as anything. I have flown 3 times since Jan 1st with no problems. However, I don't think that is the general perception.

While show sales are down this year, internet sales are up. Especially sales to overseas clients. These sales are up over 40% from this period last year.

Melvin, I agree with you that the market has gotten tougher out there for some makers and dealers. However, if it really is that bad. How can there be so many makers that are so far behind on delivery dates?

As with any business, there are usually reasons why times get tough. It's easy to blame the economy. It's tougher to do something about it.
 
Originally posted by Melvin-Purvis
The 'trendy new, custom knife de jeur' kiddies ran off to USN, to impress all their 'friends' with their 'buy today, sell tomorrow' knives...

Collectors of the 'rare and valuable' collectible knives slipped over to KFC...
Click to expand...

I think I've seen more high quality knives recently on BF than anywhere else. As to USN, what you say is true to some extent, although there are a *lot* of customs there too - in fact, I have seen more Loveless and Moran pics there than anywhere else (in Dave Ellis' forum).
 
Originally posted by Melvin-Purvis
The 'trendy new, custom knife de jeur' kiddies ran off to USN, to impress all their 'friends' with their 'buy today, sell tomorrow' knives...Mel
Click to expand...
I take offense to such BS, especially to the 'buy today, sell tomorrow' nonsense!

On the USN there is way more custom makers by far then on any knife forum i know of, it only makes sense there would be more going on there because of that, end of story, no mystery, just a good source of custom makers and collectors is all.

James
 
Hopefully this isn't going to turn into another cross forum flame war. I have really been enjoying this thread and I hope things can stay on topic.
 
Observtions with no particular priority order:

This forum is my first stop at BF. I was surprised to hear of any diminishing of interest, myself. I am impressed with the maturity of the dialog now being offered here, too. (I am a big fan of the CKD forums, although it doesn't have the numbers that BF has, it has set the precedent for non-flaming dialog, as I see it.) All-in-all BF is a good community, the same as the others. Just a little different flavor. Already I see some turf support forming in this thread. Let's keep it at just that--support.

Regarding customs resale value, and the turnover: *Very* few people need a custom knife. They must want it. :) Sellers regularly do themselves AND the makers a BIG disservice by offering a knife by only a description or a low-quality pic. If the 'buzz' has died down, then how is one supposed to know every model by the countless makers out there. Doing a search is not always fruitful. As such, these are the knives that get all the BTTT's and reduced offers.

I shouldn't complain--I have been on the receiving end of a great knife at a 30% savings, from these posts. I am quite certain the values would increase if described correctly with good visuals. (I am working in this regard regularly, as many of you know. Look for a website soon. ;))

Interesting thread.Another good one.

Coop
 
Originally posted by APM
I take offense to such BS, especially to the 'buy today, sell tomorrow' nonsense!

On the USN there is way more custom makers by far then on any knife forum i know of, it only makes sense there would be more going on there because of that, end of story, no mystery, just a good source of custom makers and collectors is all.

James
Click to expand...

I visit both forums, and others. Your perception is totally off on that topic. There are far more makers on BFC. With almost 15,000 more members, it would be stupid to think otherwise. The USN has more of the "hot" or extremely popular makers Les has refered to several times before. These are the makers who's knives seem to get sold often on the secondary market because of the popularity and high demand.
Also, did you know that almost every maker on the USN is also a member of BFC?

Anyways, back to the topic. Les made some great observations earlier. There for a while. my post count stayed pretty close to the same, except for posting the exchange forum for buying/selling/trading. I think a lot of people were going through that slump of not posting much and just watching. Those were the times when everything seemed to get turned back to the same topics that had been hashed out 1,000 times before. Over the last few weeks, new makers have been brought it, specifically the ABS guys that Les mentioned earlier. People have started posting more pics of established makers who may not be on the "hot" list, but are making amazing knives and have been for a while. The discussion has started to cover multitudes of custom topics other then the most popular trend of the moment. I've noticed myself lately posting more and more in various forums. And I think that has to do with people coming back and opening back up to posting more due to the wide variety of interesting topics. In fact, the custom forum is the only one I have seen so far where controversial topcis can be argued and debated in a reasonably calm and friendly atmosphere. I think that is a big part of the resurgance of quality information on this forum. People get tired of all the name calling and mud slinging and are finally happy to be able to see friendly debates and discussions take place where everyone leaves with more knowledge than they entered.

JR
 
Originally posted by Keith Montgomery
Hopefully this isn't going to turn into another cross forum flame war. I have really been enjoying this thread and I hope things can stay on topic.
Click to expand...

Keith,

I agree!

How the HELL did we get on THAT subject again??:grumpy:
 
With respect, please no cross forum bashing guys... please
 
Originally posted by Les Robertson

Melvin, I agree with you that the market has gotten tougher out there for some makers and dealers. However, if it really is that bad. How can there be so many makers that are so far behind on delivery dates?
Click to expand...

One thought on that is: a maker with a two year wait might have been into his first year's backlog work when the economy started turning. The maker still maintains a bunch of orders while the economy was heading into dismal territory. Maybe some folks might fall off the list due to money problems, but most are probably looking forward to thier new custom knives at the price originally agreed when times were flush.

An amusing related side-thought is how gas prices can spike up immediately - something could happen in Saudi Arabia, and then we see increased prices at the pump, despite the fact it's drawn from the same gas-load that's been underneath the service station from the last time they got a delivery.
 
I was at the Solvang show in April and I can tell you the interest in custom knives seemed to be high. Jes Horn sold out on Friday. One guy sold a walking cane for $7,500.00:eek: :eek: I buy about one or two customs a year. I like left hand framelocks with pocket clips. I just got a model 2 frame lock from Mike Obenauf. It took 5 months to get but I would say that it was probably the best deal that I ever got on a custom framelock. I am frustrated that it is hard to get a left hand model but I understand the economics of them not being available. Most I get directly from the maker. At Solvang I put in an order with John Smith for his new carbon fiber overlay framelock. At $425 I consider that a deal from a maker of his reputation. It will take 6 months to get but that's OK. I'm not really into the fancy knives. With Tom Mayo, Ken Onion, Ernest Emerson and Kit Carson not taking orders, it seems to indicate that they are doing pretty well. Tom has treated me well, I have 3 of his folders and a large Mayonized Sebenza. I was lucky enough to get an order in with Ernie before he shut off the orders and to me an Obenauf is pretty close to a Carson. I'm still pretty interested in customs but Les is right on when he says to do your homework. But in my opinion nothing slips out of my pocket and opens like my large Sebbie. I'm really impressed with it and Tom's customizing made it that much better. I'd sure like to get a left hand Onion. I would say that I'm interested in customs but I try to pick them carefully.:cool: ;) :p
 
Damn, you're just about one long-winded, coherent thought holding 'sumbitch' aren't you?

You're obviously more in tune with the 'day to day' goings on in the custom knife collecting world, of this I have no doubt...and being that we collect Randall's, maybe I shouldn't be commenting on 'custom' knives at all... ;)

But then again, being that Edna has had knives made to her specs by folks like Jess Horn and Ron Clark, and I've had RMK's made to my specs, knives like I've never seen before (a #6-5 stacked leather, etc.); it could be that maybe I should...

Now, if you will humor me a bit, I'll try to discuss what I consider to be 'Handmade' knives...that being, anything other than regular production 'large company' machine made knives. Hopefully, using that as a guideline, we can avoid the whole 'What is a custom knife anyway?' BS...

'Handmade' IMNSHO being any knife assembled primarily by hand, made to any specs, in any quantity, by any number of people, using any machines...in a small shop environment.

That said, I think that most of your comments are pretty much 'spot on', and as such, we have little to disagree about, I believe. But, I digress; on to the questions...

The last 3 shows we attended were the Oregon Knife Collectors Association (OKCA) show; where we spent all of the three days there at the show, meeting with friends and makers, promoting our RMK 'Timeline' collectors reference guide, promoting Jim Nowka's new knife magazine 'KnifeForums.com, the Magazine', and buying knives.

Prior to that, it was the SoCal Blades 'KnifeExpo 2003', and prior to that the Bay Area Knife Collectors Association (BAKCA) show...a few weeks before the BAKCA show, it was 'Blade West'...

Blade West was a bad show for everyone we spoke with, with sales in a slump. Was it a bad economy, only a few days after 9/11, poor promotion, or a 'bad buzz' in the air...who knows? The general consensus was that it was a 'bad show' though...and this from many of the makers of 'Handmade' knives, and the various purveyors we spoke with. (I really can't name names here in a public forum, as that would be bad form. But, if you really 'need to know', email me Les, and I'll tell you privately.)

BAKCA was a little better, but Silicon Valley has been hit hard financially recently, and there wasn't much money exchanging hands. Most of the same players at this show, but no talk of 9/11 or poor promotion…the 'buzz' was better, as this is a fun show...lots of makers, lots of knives, not many sales. A soft economy strikes again?

KnifeExpo is always a hoot, but it seems to be mostly collections, a lot of productions, many resellers, niche market cutlery, etc…a little something for everyone, and a few handmades their too...but not much in the way of money/knives exchanging hands this year, IIRC.

OKCA is OKCA, and the best show that we've been to for shear knife offerings volume. In the three full days we were there, from what I saw, most of the knives on the tables stayed on the tables. That is, unless there were more of the same under the tables, and the 'cup never emptied'...a few thousand knives were sold for sure, and that many more traded, so it was probably the best show, for shear volume, that I've seen to date.

I think your synopsis of what 'makes' a maker/seller successful is absolutely correct. But, as to your question of the other purveyors, no, they didn't seem to be doing all that well...and when I 'broke the rule' of asking how they were doing, almost all shook their heads in the negative. It seemed more like they were buying there than selling.

I didn't ask about Internet sales, as it didn't occur to me at the time...good point though.

Personally, I think your attitude is very positive Les, and I hope it's contagious! Speaking of which, we'll soon have tables at most of the shows mentioned above, buying and selling knives. and hopefully, by then, I'll have learned a bit more from you with regards to your seemingly successful business strategy... ;)

For all, with regards to the USN 'thang'; my opinions are only my own, and I hope that you'll respect them to the same degree that I respect yours. The thing of it is, I have great respect for many, if not most of the member/maker/dealer's there, including the site owner. They've done well, and deserve Kudo's for their efforts.

With regards to the 'Custom' knife forum here at BFC, IMO it's still the best 'true', across the board representation of the overall picture of 'Handmade' knives in our community, on the internet today. This 'isn't' the trendy knife de jour forum, it's the forum for all handmade knife makers, both established and 'up n' coming'. Each forum has something positive to contribute, some more than others.

Back to the point...if sales have indeed slowed, as many of us believe, hopefully the slowdown will be short lived. In the mean time, as Les said, those makers producing well made, useful products, at a reasonable price with good service, should continue to prosper.

That's it for now, my two good typing fingers are getting tired...

Mel
 
Many makers left BF when the rules about posting pics came... Hell I owe alot to forums like this one... Its good to see the rules easing up too..

As for the Custom/Factory thing.. I think Custom knives are in a great period right now..
Hell there are teenagers buying Custom knives !! When I was a teen I couldnt buy a custom ANYTHING.
Im HOPING this whole kids with knives thing dont bite us in the ass though:-)
I can see it now...:rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by Les Robertson


What I am finding is the custom knife market is very strong for those makers who:

Show versatility in their designs and the materials they will work.

Understand that the knives should be made to the desires and specifications of the person buying the knife.

Have good to excellent people skills.

Deliver on time.

Provide quality knives for the money.

Keep their name out there through; advertising, Internet presence and show attendance.
Click to expand...

Les,

Thanks for that reply, it is spot on IMO. There are just too many good maker's out there who meet these criteria and will give you a very rewarding experience as part of the package. To those that don't follow these simple "rules", been nice knowing you.

I would like to personally thank BFC and it's members for the knowledge I have gained over the years. I feel that through the dicussion and input on the Custom Forum, my purchases have been wiser, more rewarding and have resulted in more repeat orders with certain makers. I have also managed to finally be able to "focus" on the styles I like and this has resulted in the number of knives being sold off (because they weren't as I had imagine) going down. Hell, maybe I'm finally maturing :rolleyes:

I also am finding the discussions on this forum to be some of the best and most thought provoking ones on the web. Not the typical "flash-in-the-pan" jibberish over whats hot and what you got, but rather some true insight into what some of the finest knife people in the world see in the industry, in their work and that of others.

All in all, I find the Custom Forum rocking and getting back on it's feet. I have learned a lot here and am looking forward to learning some more.
 
I think the custom market has peeked and yes it is slowing down from where it was, but still it's a heck of alot better than it was 5 years ago. New makers in my opinion are still getting great prices and in some cases are even getting the same or more thanthe older makers. The net has been great to alot, makers and buyers both. I am also glad to see this forum relaxing a little and some real good posts.
 
Hi Mel,

Thanks for clarifying several things. The reason I asked which shows you went to was to see if the were custom knife shows or knife shows.

The Blade Show West, Knife Expo and Oregon Show are all knife shows. That is to say they have a large amount of factory and custom knives.

When the factory version of a popular knife is in the room, it can be difficult to sell the real thing.

Sales at shows have slowed to a degree. The makers with long waits or big demand will still sell out. The other less known makers are generally the ones who bear the brunt of the slow sales.

Today, show sales are only about 15-20% of my business. Don't get me wrong I like to have strong sales at a show as much as anyone. However, I now realize that sales are no longer the most important aspect of a show for me.

Meeting Internet clients face to face, putting knives into clients and potential clients hands and meeting new makers are as important, if not more so then sales. The shows I attend may total only 3 weeks out of the year...what about the other 49 weeks!

I have a positive attitude towards custom knives because I love being around them.
Buying, selling, trading or just talking about them. I also enjoy that fact that I am in tune with the market. This helps me to contiune on my life long quest of never having a "real" job again.

Whether you are a maker or a dealer, the market does not set the parameters for your business...you do.
 
Hi db,

I think I would have to argue this point with you. My sales have gone up an average of 24% each year for the last 8 years. With 2002 and being my best year.

I just had the best March I have ever had.

Are you talking about the entire custom knife market has peaked? If so what do you base this on?

Prehaps, your talking about certain sectors of the market.

One thing that can confuse the casual observer is that a particular market will slow down and appear to have peaked.

People in the "know" have been saying that the tactical knife market has peaked for the last 5 years.

The market has not peaked it has matured. There is a difference.

When a market gets hot, everybody and their mother starts making that type of knife. Tactical folders are a perfect example of this. This market has stayed wide open for years. To the point that everyone was making or trying to make a tactical folder.

As the market matured, some people moved on to other markets, some decided to only collect certain makers or certain styles.

Those who could not compete, left the market. In most cases blaming it on the economy (everybodys favorite whipping boy these days). Not looking at things such as market saturation, their inability or lack of desire to go from ATS-34 to S30V. Lack of ability or desire to make a frame lock. Their pricing is not in line with the market, etc.

The Japanese Tactical market has slowed. However, this opened the door to those makers who could produce quality utility/tactical fixed blades at a competitive price. Thos who can use 3V, S30V and Talonite gained an early advantage in this market.

ABS Fixed blades are another market set to explode. Jerry Fisk and his crew have done an excellent job introducing these knives to a world-wide audience. Look at the post just on this forum over the last 6 months. Hunters and Bowies in 1084 are growind in demand every day.

The multi-blade market grows every day.

Collectors get better educated every year. Consequently, they demand better work at a competitive price.

Those makers who are resting on the laurels will soon find they may have sat too long. Many of these will be the same makers who will tell anyone who will listen that the market has peaked. It's not like it used to be, the economy is keeping people from buying my knives, etc.

They are right about one thing, perception of a bad economy for many is becoming reality. Mostly because they are convincing their former customers of it.

Whether you think you can or cannot influnce your market...You are right!
 
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