Laminated knife steels

were talking about knives. I don't see the necessity to have a 6" blade thats impact resistant and flexable. The word "tougher" is subjective and means alot of different things to alot of people.

A stone flint knife would do you just fine then. ;)

Not to worry, there are some nice ones out there these days.
 
In theory yes, but on practice difference is small if ever exists, too many factors contributes to toughness - you may see noss4 tests on how tough fallkniven laminated steel is.

In Japan laminated steel is dominating stock for cutlery and it is cheaper to have laminated then non laminated.

VG10 is not super steel - it is about ATS34 - I can understand in ZDP189 is in core, but VG10 is not very exciting - same as AUS--8 in core in CS knives.

Thanks, Vassili.

Um... VG-10 is a super steel. It surpasses ATS-34, AUS-8, and CPM154 in edge retention while being more stain resistent then all of them.

ZDP-189 is not quite as stainless, but it takes a far keener edge. However, it's very hard (Rc 61-62 nom.)

which it fine in swords.......and actually, japanese swords can be bent pretty easily.

were talking about knives. I don't see the necessity to have a 6" blade thats impact resistant and flexable. The word "tougher" is subjective and means alot of different things to alot of people.

back to the OPs' question, no- sharpen like you would any knife

If it's a convex grind to start with, you should invest in some sandpaper and a mouse pad and sharpen it like a convex edge.

What do you use 6" knives for? Chopping carrots fine. Battoning and brushwork? I'd take the laminated over the solid VG-10. Look at RAT Cutlery's heat treat of 1095. It will take a 30 degree bend and return true, all while being quite hard with an exceptional edge. I don't hear anyone complaining over there.
 
VG10 is not super steel - it is about ATS34 - I can understand in ZDP189 is in core, but VG10 is not very exciting - same as AUS--8 in core in CS knives.
That is a very strange statement to say the least. Or probably two strange statements.
For one, VG-10 has Vanadium in it, while neither ATS-34 nor AUS-8 have it. I'll skip the whole Vanadium carbide thing here, there's more than enough info about that on this forum as well.
Even though both are Japanese steels, I see VG-10 in premium Japanese kitchen knives, never seen ATS-34 in them so far.

Tojoro knives VG-10 is 62HRC, and you want to tell us that it's gonna be the same as AUS-8 in CS knives or in any other knife?

If I didn't have several CS AUS-8 folders in the past and a few Tojiros may be I'd believe that. For that matter, Fallkniven VG-10 White Whale, which I've used for around 4-5 years, was around 59HRC, that outperformed AUS-8 from CS quite considerably, despite the fact that it was sharpened to ~30 deg. angle included, while the CS AUS-8 knives were around 40-45, to have acceptable edge holding.

P.S. Josh K - ZDP as usual is much harder than 62HRC. Sanetsu I have is 64-66HRC, William Henry folder is 67HRC.
 
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Um... VG-10 is a super steel. It surpasses ATS-34, AUS-8, and CPM154 in edge retention while being more stain resistent then all of them.

ZDP-189 is not quite as stainless, but it takes a far keener edge. However, it's very hard (Rc 61-62 nom.)



If it's a convex grind to start with, you should invest in some sandpaper and a mouse pad and sharpen it like a convex edge.

What do you use 6" knives for? Chopping carrots fine. Battoning and brushwork? I'd take the laminated over the solid VG-10. Look at RAT Cutlery's heat treat of 1095. It will take a 30 degree bend and return true, all while being quite hard with an exceptional edge. I don't hear anyone complaining over there.


I'd much rather have a knife made from 1095, properly heat treated if I need a knife for hacking.
 
That is a very strange statement to say the least. Or probably two strange statements.
For one, VG-10 has Vanadium in it, while neither ATS-34 nor AUS-8 have it. I'll skip the whole Vanadium carbide thing here, there's more than enough info about that on this forum as well.
Even though both are Japanese steels, I see VG-10 in premium Japanese kitchen knives, never seen ATS-34 in them so far.

Tojoro knives VG-10 is 62HRC, and you want to tell us that it's gonna be the same as AUS-8 in CS knives or in any other knife?

If I didn't have several CS AUS-8 folders in the past and a few Tojiros may be I'd believe that. For that matter, Fallkniven VG-10 White Whale, which I've used for around 4-5 years, was around 59HRC, that outperformed AUS-8 from CS quite considerably, despite the fact that it was sharpened to ~30 deg. angle included, while the CS AUS-8 knives were around 40-45, to have acceptable edge holding.


ohnoes..you started with the angles;)
 
P.S. Josh K - ZDP as usual is much harder than 62HRC. Sanetsu I have is 64-66HRC, William Henry folder is 67HRC.

I was being generous with the RC estimate. :D Even at 62RC it wouldn't be suitable for chopping.

SShepherd: I would too. The only problem is it's rust prone whereas VG-10 is very stainless.
 
Um... VG-10 is a super steel. It surpasses ATS-34, AUS-8, and CPM154 in edge retention while being more stain resistent then all of them.

ZDP-189 is not quite as stainless, but it takes a far keener edge. However, it's very hard (Rc 61-62 nom.)

VG-10 may be better then average, but far from super. ZDP189 and CPM S90V, CPM S110V are super steels for now. Where this edge retention data about VG10 being better then CPM 154 is from?

Thanks, Vassili.
 
I was being generous with the RC estimate. :D Even at 62RC it wouldn't be suitable for chopping.

SShepherd: I would too. The only problem is it's rust prone whereas VG-10 is very stainless.

Knives are not for chopping - axes are. It is pretty strange to use cutting tool for chopping even it is possible. You can use fork for cutting soft meat on your plate but this is not primary usage. So chopping with knife to me os OK in emergency situation if there is no proper tool but I do not think it is primary function as well as first thing to look for.

Knives can be used as prybars as screwdrivers, evel as spoon etc, but they are for cutting - cutting tool and can not compete with axe, prybar and screwdriver and spoon and should not be jugged based on this usage.

So I do not really care too much if knife can not chop pine, but if it can not cut - then this is a problem IMHO.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
VG-10 may be better then average, but far from super. ZDP189 and CPM S90V, CPM S110V are super steels for now. Where this edge retention data about VG10 being better then CPM 154 is from?

Thanks, Vassili.

440C by most is still considered a "super steel". At least a minor one.

Super steels are a catagory. A lot of steels fit into that. Most often they have complex molecular structures and large amounts of carbides.

1095, 52100, etc are simple steels.

.:edit:. If ZDP and S90V are such stand alone super steels, then why aren't they more commonly used I wonder. So far I've only seen two knives in S90V, one is S110V, and a handful in ZDP-189.
 
Knives are not for chopping - axes are. It is pretty strange to use cutting tool for chopping even it is possible. You can use fork for cutting soft meat on your plate but this is not primary usage. So chopping with knife to me os OK in emergency situation if there is no proper tool but I do not think it is primary function as well as first thing to look for.

Knives can be used as prybars as screwdrivers, evel as spoon etc, but they are for cutting - cutting tool and can not compete with axe, prybar and screwdriver and spoon and should not be jugged based on this usage.

So I do not really care too much if knife can not chop pine, but if it can not cut - then this is a problem IMHO.

Thanks, Vassili.

So you're going to stand behind the "knife is a knife" argument, but then you point to Noss's tests for a steel evaluation? :thumbdn:

I agree. If I'm chopping a couple of trees, I'll pack an ax. But if I'm just going weekend camping, maybe some wood gathering, maybe a little camp file, I'm not going to pack a 8lbs ax. I will pack a A2 though.
 
For one, VG-10 has Vanadium in it, while neither ATS-34 nor AUS-8 have it. I'll skip the whole Vanadium carbide thing here, there's more than enough info about that on this forum as well.
VG10 has 0.1-0.3% vanadium, not enough for significant carbide formation, only to control grain growth. ATS34/154CM have 4% moly, a good carbide former

Most often they have complex molecular structures and large amounts of carbides.
steel isn't composed of molecules.
 
So you're going to stand behind the "knife is a knife" argument, but then you point to Noss's tests for a steel evaluation? :thumbdn:

I agree. If I'm chopping a couple of trees, I'll pack an ax. But if I'm just going weekend camping, maybe some wood gathering, maybe a little camp file, I'm not going to pack a 8lbs ax. I will pack a A2 though.

Sorry I heart you feeling, but Noss4 test are best show steel toughness and laminated blades was not on top, I am not sure what is your problem with this.

If I am going camping - I take axe first not knife, may be knife but for personal use as emergency tool, I can peel potatoes with axe, but not take down tree with knife. I also make sure that we have 1.2 meter 2 handle saw in the group. I do not like survive in the forest, but rather enjoy it and for this this tools are most important, especially winter time in Russia.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
steel isn't composed of molecules.
Not for the sake of the argument, but what are the carbides in that case?

I also make sure that we have 1.2 meter 2 handle saw in the group. I do not like survive in the forest, but rather enjoy it and for this this tools are most important, especially winter time in Russia.
Definitely haven't seen anybody camping with 1.2m saw, neither in US, nor in Russia.
As for the Russian forest camping, it's more likely to see 1.2L bottle of vodka in the camping gear than 1.2m saw, which I haven't seen in anybody's camping gear. That's from my past camping trips with Russians, in Russia and in US.
 
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Sorry I heart you feeling, but Noss4 test are best show steel toughness and laminated blades was not on top, I am not sure what is your problem with this.

If I am going camping - I take axe first not knife, may be knife but for personal use as emergency tool, I can peel potatoes with axe, but not take down tree with knife. I also make sure that we have 1.2 meter 2 handle saw in the group. I do not like survive in the forest, but rather enjoy it and for this this tools are most important, especially winter time in Russia.

Thanks, Vassili.

I care that first you're going to evaluate the steel based on composition and cutting performance, and then point to tests designed to stress a knife to determine toughness to validate your opinions. It's just hypocritical.

If I was going group camping I would probably bring an ax and a saw. If I'm going by myself, it will probably be staying home. I don't plan on taking out a tree every time I go outside. ;)
 
? Do you mean grains? Vanadium Carbide is VC, Chromium Carbide is Cr3C2 and so on. Those are molecules, not atoms.

I mean they're held together the same way crystals are.... I think. I'm rusty. Meh. :o

I was corrected. Steel is not composed of molecules, however it may contain carbides, which are molecules, but they are held together (on thin ice here) by electrostatic forces between the atoms.
 
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