Laminated knife steels

[hardheart]

Carbides are great, but mostly make up only a small percentage of the material of a knife blade. Even these CPM steels with tons of carbon and vanadium are still not molecular for ~75% of the structure for the highest carbide volume types in knives.

 

[Gator97]

Well, if we got that way everything is made of atoms Including molecules.
Steel is a mix.

 

[nozh2002]

I care that first you're going to evaluate the steel based on composition and cutting performance, and then point to tests designed to stress a knife to determine toughness to validate your opinions. It's just hypocritical.

If I was going group camping I would probably bring an ax and a saw. If I'm going by myself, it will probably be staying home. I don't plan on taking out a tree every time I go outside.

I am not sure where you get it from. Knives are for cutting - one thing. If you are looking for toughness - Noss4 test are best place for this - is another things. I do not see any problem here or how they related - both is true at least from my point of view. Until you are looking for something else. I am not sure why you switch from original topic to my humble person.

Well, when I was going to biking or kayaking trip for week or more I took good small axe with me and do not care too much about knife. Knife was not on most important things - just for "selfdefense", which is usual concern for teenagers everywhere. And in the forest there are quite a bit of fallen trees in different condition so you do not need to cut tree to get good log to make all night long fire.

I am not sure where this idea to get tree every time going out came from - is it normal fear reaction on someone carrying axe?

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[Slim to None]

...my humble person...

5 count

 

[CUTS LIKE A KRIS]

Knives are for cutting - one thing.
Thanks, Vassili.

Perhaps you should add something like "In my usage" or "as far as I am concerned" to your statements. Throughout many cultures knives are used for chopping, and are even designed for such activities. It is clear that you have your own personal beliefs, but please state them as such. To disprove your statement one must only look at a Nepalese Kukri- a knife designed for chopping.

 

[rookie4real]

Perhaps you should add something like "In my usage" or "as far as I am concerned" to your statements. Throughout many cultures knives are used for chopping, and are even designed for such activities. It is clear that you have your own personal beliefs, but please state them as such. To disprove your statement one must only look at a Nepalese Kukri- a knife designed for chopping.

From Webster's Dictionary. Definition of "Knife": "a cutting instrument consisting of a sharp blade fastened to a handle".

I agree with Vasily, primary and original use of knife is cutting. Yes, there are large blades such as kukri and machete that designed mainly for chopping, but we are not talking about them right now.
I like to use screwdriver for putting in/out screws, wire cutters for cutting wire, wrenches for bolts and nuts, and knives for cutting things they are designed to cut. Yes, you can use you knife for chopping wood if you have no choice. But most of the time I chose to have a choice and bring my axe with me when camping, that does chopping 10 times more efficient. May be I am just an old fashioned guy.

 

[Fargus]

Chop (from Dictionary.com):
1. to cut or sever with a quick, heavy blow or a series of blows, using an ax, hatchet, etc. (often fol. by down, off, etc.): to chop down a tree.
2. to make or prepare for use by so cutting: to chop logs.
3. to cut in pieces; mince (often fol. by up): to chop up an onion; to chop meat.

All include the operative word 'cut'. An ax is just a specialized type of knife. As many have already pointed out, there are blades that are knife designs intended for chopping (machete, parang, etc.) along with other duties.

As far as citing Noss4's 'tests' as a valid means of illustrating/comparing a blade's toughness, I'd have to disagree. The testing is dramatic, but relatively useless in terms of any form of scientific process. I didn't think there were any people around who still gave his testing credence.

 

[nozh2002]

Fact that there are few specaily designd for wood choping knives emphasise fact that in general knives are for cutting. Even machetes is mostly for cutting through jungle not for copping wood. And khukry is made almost in a form of axe, being actually som hybrid between knife and axe, because axees are for chopping wood and knives for cutting, this is why if you need chopping from knife - you make it as an axe. But average axe outchop any khukry.

Axes are not knives - this is too much to say.

And Noss4 tests perfectly scientific, if you know what does it mean and not using this "unscientific" complain just because you do not like outcome for certain brands, based on some Hollywood idea what science is.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[Josh K]

I am not sure where you get it from. Knives are for cutting - one thing. If you are looking for toughness - Noss4 test are best place for this - is another things. Sure. Whatever. I do not see any problem here or how they related - both is true at least from my point of view. Until you are looking for something else. I am not sure why you switch from original topic to my humble person. Because the original question was why are these knives laminated and what does that do to the knife. Increase toughness and corrosion resistance. Then you came along and said VG-10 is not good steel, and it's comparable to CS's AUS-8A.

Well, when I was going to biking or kayaking trip for week or more I took good small axe with me and do not care too much about knife. Personal choice. Knife was not on most important things - just for "selfdefense", I've got a great pair of running shoes and a Surefire which are my primary means of SD. which is usual concern for teenagers everywhere. And in the forest there are quite a bit of fallen trees in different condition so you do not need to cut tree to get good log to make all night long fire. Hence my argument that if I'm backpacking alone I wouldn't care to much about an ax. All dependent on where I am going to be and for how long.

I am not sure where this idea to get tree every time going out came from - is it normal fear reaction on someone carrying axe? I'm terrified. Honestly.

Thanks, Vassili.

Let's move back on topic and away from ax's before you start saying a 40 degree inclusive angle is a "edge like ax".

 

[Fargus]

Axes are not knives - this is too much to say.

And Noss4 tests perfectly scientific, if you know what does it mean and not using this "unscientific" complain just because you do not like outcome for certain brands, based on some Hollywood idea what science is.

Sorry, but the Noss4 tests are not truly controlled tests by any stretch of the imagination. They are fun for kids to watch, but have little value beyond the level of sophomoric humor. You complain about knives being used for chopping, yet you seem to like someone who definitely takes knives well beyond their intended design parameters. Concrete blocks? Hammer to the spines in a way that does not take into account resonance frequencies? How is much of anything the guy does reflect a scientific knowledge of metallurgy or understanding of design parameters? You state that knives are meant solely for cutting, but you cite a guy hacking into concrete blocks as gospel? If anyone is "Hollywood", it's Noss4. I feel you are seriously confused at the very least. As far as my having a vested interest in any of the knives he's tested, simply not the case.

Just curious, if knives are meant solely for cutting, why are there knives over 6" (just a ballpark figure) in blade length? What possible need could there be for draw/push cuts done with something like a 10" blade? Why would knife manufacturers market a 10+ inch blade as a "chopper"? How is a machete not a chopper? Are you using draw/push cuts when using one? If so, how tired are you after removing a few half inch limbs? Wouldn't a saw/ax be a better tool? How does batoning fit into this purist slicing only ideal? Why are Nessmuk style knives considered such good all around knives for chores that include by intent, chopping?

 

[SShepherd]

is "nohz" a russian variant of the name clifford by chance?

 

[nozh2002]

Sorry, but the Noss4 tests are not truly controlled tests by any stretch of the imagination. They are fun for kids to watch, but have little value beyond the level of sophomoric humor. You complain about knives being used for chopping, yet you seem to like someone who definitely takes knives well beyond their intended design parameters. Concrete blocks? Hammer to the spines in a way that does not take into account resonance frequencies? How is much of anything the guy does reflect a scientific knowledge of metallurgy or understanding of design parameters? You state that knives are meant solely for cutting, but you cite a guy hacking into concrete blocks as gospel? If anyone is "Hollywood", it's Noss4. I feel you are seriously confused at the very least. As far as my having a vested interest in any of the knives he's tested, simply not the case.

Just curious, if knives are meant solely for cutting, why are there knives over 6" (just a ballpark figure) in blade length? What possible need could there be for draw/push cuts done with something like a 10" blade? Why would knife manufacturers market a 10+ inch blade as a "chopper"? How is a machete not a chopper? Are you using draw/push cuts when using one? If so, how tired are you after removing a few half inch limbs? Wouldn't a saw/ax be a better tool? How does batoning fit into this purist slicing only ideal? Why are Nessmuk style knives considered such good all around knives for chores that include by intent, chopping?

We have quite a bit of discussion before. Noss4 has strict procedure to test knives starting from peeling apple and goes through tsts one by one until at the end if knife did all tests and at that point he try to trow everything in it.

I answered that there many times with transcript of his video etc. I see that some desperate to present his testing as an destroying knives for entertaining just because some over hyped and overpriced knives fail, but to me this is very useful information and more scientific then any other information we have.

Now why do I pay attention to this while considering knife as a cutting tool? Simple, knife is emergency tool which may be carried on the body and in case I fall from the cliff, or into river from the copter etc - away from the camp and tools this is only what I end up with. So then I will have to use it as a chopper, pry-bar, screwdriver etc. For this is good to know what knife can stand.

But I do not value knife which can not cut. I will use axe for chopping not knife. If I do not have axe in emergency situation then I will have to use knife and prefer one which will not crack at first blow.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[Squeezymo]

Fact that there are few specaily designd for wood choping knives emphasise fact that in general knives are for cutting. Even machetes is mostly for cutting through jungle not for copping wood. And khukry is made almost in a form of axe, being actually som hybrid between knife and axe, because axees are for chopping wood and knives for cutting, this is why if you need chopping from knife - you make it as an axe. But average axe outchop any khukry.

Axes are not knives - this is too much to say.

And Noss4 tests perfectly scientific, if you know what does it mean and not using this "unscientific" complain just because you do not like outcome for certain brands, based on some Hollywood idea what science is.

Thanks, Vassili.

Noss4's tests are unscientific. I like them, and they can provide valuable information, but they aren't scientific. If they were, he would order 5 knives of the same kind, and do very controlled testing with constant pressures applied to the blade for each test on each knife.

For Noss, that is impractical. At best what his tests show is that if a popular knife fails a simple tests, that does not mean that all of those tried and true knives are bad, but the likelihood of getting one that will not perform as you wanted it to is higher.

This has the same relevance as do your edge retention tests. You swear by them but have too many variables for them to be accurate. So your experience with VG-10 not being a super steel is probably based on innaccurate testing methods. I appreciate all the work you put into your tests, but if you want something to be "scientific" you need to be much more accurate than what you do. Noss's tests are just demolition dirby's. If you see a car get smashed up in a demolition dirby, it doesn't mean that it is a bad car, or won't perform as well as the other cars that got slightly luckier.

And knives are for cutting, yes. But when I go camping/hiking, I'd rather bring a knife than an axe. For a backpacking trip, you want everything to be as light as possible. And a 5-6 inch knife cuts away brush much better than an axe. As for making fires, I can shave tinder much better with a sharp knife, and i've gotten some pretty substantial fires going without the use of an axe at all. Also, I don't want to yank out an axe just to cut a piece of rope or string. It still boils down to preference, but you're being quite stubborn and close-minded. There are a lot of things knives can do that axes cannot do as well, but there seems to be only one thing an axe can do better than a knife and that's chop.

 

[nozh2002]

Why 5 why not 100? Is it magical number making it scientific.

Not at all. He has same procedure for every knife and with certain probability it show what to expect from this or that manufacturer.

For example if he get knife made out of wood and it fail. I guess nobody will ask to test 5 of this knives before make conclusion. Science deals with all kind of information and sometimes with fenomens which happened very rare. So it is not required to have 5 observation to be scientific. What are you talking about is how representative this tests are. But we deal with this all the time - and results from one knife also valuable, until he use same procedure for all of them.

People who attack Noss4 does not realise that only valid way to prove that it is not representative is to increase number of observation - do more tests. But so far nobody like to do real work, just talk and get angry.

Thanks, Vassili.

P.S. You may talk a lot about inaccurate tests - but you do not even bother to chack my tests - I did not test VG10 yet.
Do your own tests and then I will listen to you on how inaccurate my tests are.

 

[barrabas74]

..I've been checking out the Fallkniven line of knives and see that its convexed(?) and laminated.. ..is there special care needed in sharpening a laminated steel knife so as to keep the steel sandwich in the correct proportion?

I think the topic was Laminated steels, not another whine fest on scientific method and Noss's test and what not. Could we please not use this thread as a means to go through all that stuff again?

I am sure if someone wants to start another thread on this they can OR on why to carry an axe over a knife etc. I am by no means a mod but we have alot of threads discussing these topics already and they dont correspond to the OP's original question.

 

[Fargus]

Actually, Fallkniven does its own internal testing of its blades. One of the few manufacturers that does so. I believe they will provide their results and testing methodology upon request. That testing is one reason why they supposedly moved from a pure VG10 blade to the laminate design in most of their current fixed blades. The laminate did provide a significant increase in blade flexibility.

You state in post #29 of this thread: "VG-10 may be better then average, but far from super." You state that you haven't done any testing of it, how did you reach this conclusion? Or, have you actually done testing but it didn't turn out the way you wanted it to so you discarded the results until you can twist things around to your own satisfaction? You seem to be waffling and dancing around quite a bit to maintain your position.

"So it is not required to have 5 observation to be scientific." That is incorrect. To be considered valid, an experiment must provide repeatable results. Testing in a single instance does not make for a valid conclusion.

 

[hardheart]

At most, no one can say Noss' results are repeatable or not for any given knife tested, because, as nozh said, all people do is complain about the videos, and don't bother to verify or negate the results.

And the forces applied to the knives are within the range applicable to an adult male operating without external limiting devices, which is how these tools get used in the real world most of the time, so his swinging a baton by hand seems more than reasonable for testing how a knife reacts to, lo and behold, batoning.

 

[Josh K]

Why 5 why not 100? Is it magical number making it scientific.

Not at all. He has same procedure for every knife and with certain probability it show what to expect from this or that manufacturer.

For example if he get knife made out of wood and it fail. I guess nobody will ask to test 5 of this knives before make conclusion. Science deals with all kind of information and sometimes with fenomens which happened very rare. So it is not required to have 5 observation to be scientific. What are you talking about is how representative this tests are. But we deal with this all the time - and results from one knife also valuable, until he use same procedure for all of them.

People who attack Noss4 does not realise that only valid way to prove that it is not representative is to increase number of observation - do more tests. But so far nobody like to do real work, just talk and get angry.

Thanks, Vassili.

P.S. You may talk a lot about inaccurate tests - but you do not even bother to chack my tests - I did not test VG10 yet.
Do your own tests and then I will listen to you on how inaccurate my tests are.

Vassili: Don't hijack another thread with a pointless discussion of Noss4's knife tests.

If you haven't tested VG-10 yet then why do you say it won't outperform CPM154 and ATS-34? For reference, I tested my Spyderco D'Allara (VG-10) against a master hunter in CPM154. The D'Allara had a 30 edge angle finished on the flats of my white sharpmaker rods, the hunter was convexed. VG-10 held an edge a fair bit better.

 

[Gator97]

For reference, I tested my Spyderco D'Allara (VG-10) against a master hunter in CPM154. The D'Allara had a 30 edge angle finished on the flats of my white sharpmaker rods, the hunter was convexed.

Unless he states edge angles and types, like you did, those charts don't have pretty much any meaningful interpretation from the comparison standpoint.
Using different angles I can make 440C outlast ZDP-189 or CPM-10V easily. Which wouldn't be a true picture.

 

[Josh K]

Unless he states edge angles and types, like you did, those charts don't have pretty much any meaningful interpretation from the comparison standpoint.
Using different angles I can make 440C outlast ZDP-189 or CPM-10V easily. Which wouldn't be a true picture.

A reason I never really took into account his thread on a scale tests. He just says "hair whittling sharp" which doesn't mean much to me. I'm sure you could make a 60 inclusive angle that would whittle hair provided you stropped it enough.