Lawnmower Blade Advice in the Blade Mag

Status
Not open for further replies.
I will say this, test any unkown steel by at least quenching and breaking. Or better yet buy known steel.

That said I've never seen a lawn mower blade that I couldn't harden. But then I've only played with a few and they were all pretty much American made and for the most part from comercial mowers. At one time I was getting used German blades and they were great, but that was 5 or 6 years ago. With all the import stuff, and even American companies trying to stay afloat, no telling what's being used nowdays.

I agree that the statement could be missleading. I sometimes like playing with junkyard steels, but for reliability known steels are the way to go.
 
My neighbor has a lawn service and uses a crappy file to sharpen his blades. I used a good file to sharpen mine, took about 3 minutes and the bladed edge was rounded like cutting the grass was difficult. I have a sears mower and he uses a high end commercial brand. Doesnt seem like good steel.
 
There are also probably some folks in our field that are more or less “trapped” by their own fame. Think about it, you get some notoriety from a particular a line of B.S. and quickly ride it to the top. Now you may actually have believed the B.S. was real and good information at the time, but that quickly becomes secondary to the P.R. surrounding it. You find that the title and packaging makes it a really popular item with the public, and so you build your entire career and reputation around that B.S. until your name is almost synonymous with it. Even if you one day find that the B.S. is just that -a steaming pile of nonsense, how do you back off from that? How do you turn to all the people who have bought your books, DVD’s or other products, in a devoted effort to style all of their methods after their iconic model, and tell them it was wrong? Depending on how high that fragile pedestal was, I myself am not sure I would have the strength to fall on my own sword by slaughtering that golden goose in public.

I am not saying this is the case with any smith mentioned in this thread but it is an angle we cannot ignore in any assessment of the published information we get. Also what I have been saying is that before we judge the quality of information given to us by the perceived “experts” we need to ask how they got to be “experts”; it is because we made them so. The fact is one cannot ride B.S. alone, but if we like the B.S. enough we become the force that moves it as we lift it above the crowd in adulation and the schmuck sitting on top of it may get raised too high to jump off without really getting hurt. We have to take our responsibility in keeping shaky manure piles from getting too high to begin with. For the safety of everybody concerned we would be best to insist that things built that high have a solid foundation and involve well laid building blocks, or we will just stay as far from it as safety demands.

Edited to add: Judging by the reaction here and elsewhere, I may have to clarify my point here even more. I must reiterate that my observations here are of the knife business and printed media in general, and not any specific smith or author. My point is that if we don’t like what we read in print we must also shoulder some responsibility for what we choose to consume since the publishers are only giving us what sells the best. For what it is worth I also believe it is crock of nonsense for people so blame MacDonalds for their obesity when they rejected fruits and vegetables in order to eat Big Macs for breakfast lunch and diner. I guess my use of the term B.S. was a sticking point for some but, if we are going to dance around it and call it everything but in our criticism we need to ask why it is so popular. If we have our doubts about the “$50 Knife Shop” then why is it the most recommended book on almost any knife related forum? I am always quite disappointed to see it suggested while Wayne’s other book “The Wonders of Knifemaking” totally ignored. There are only about 1.5 paragraphs in the latter that I can’t embrace but the rest is sound metallurgical knifemaking that people should be reading if they want to do more than the lawnmower blade thing, but the choice is still ours.
 
Last edited:
Huh, I've got a comercial mower, haven't tried harding the blades yet, but the blades hold up very well against bahaya grass. When I do finaly wear them out I'll have to give it a try. You could sharpen with a file, but I use my belt grinder and from the sparks they've got plenty of carbon, act a lot like 5160, though I realy have no idea what steel it is. I do know that it used to take a couple days to mow the same acarage with a crapman mower and I'd have to sharpen the blades a couple times a day to get any cutting done.
 
Heck I thought the whole point of the ABS test knife was to bend.

Seems this would be the ideal steel

snapper+ninja+mower+badge.JPG
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_RApJIlqII...eihxoR5_-8/s320/snapper+ninja+mower+badge.JPG
Will, was that a quote from Wayne?


I will say this, test any unkown steel by at least quenching and breaking. Or better yet buy known steel.

That said I've never seen a lawn mower blade that I couldn't harden. But then I've only played with a few and they were all pretty much American made and for the most part from comercial mowers. At one time I was getting used German blades and they were great, but that was 5 or 6 years ago. With all the import stuff, and even American companies trying to stay afloat, no telling what's being used nowdays.
Click to expand...

if so seems to me the original post was taking things out of context.

I haven't read the article myself, and would like to know.
thanks.
 
$50 Knife Shop was the first knfemaking book I actually bought. However I had been blessed to have a good public library available growing up, and had read other books beforehand. Plus at the time I got it I was already coming here and beginning to learn. So I was aware that no single source was the "gospel". I'm a little surprised that Wayne would come out so strong for lawnmower blades. Even in his books he points out that it's cheaper and easier in the long run to start with fresh known steel.

To be fair, I haven't read the article so I shouldn't comment on it. But I do have some thoughts on the general topic, from a new guy's perspective.

My first KSO was ground from welding steel, and I wasn't surprised that I couldn't get it to harden. I knew it was just a practice experiment. The only other recycled steel I've used is Nicholson and Simmonds files, and although I've gotten lucky and mine have turned out nice, I know now that you can't just say "grab an old file" or even "get this brand of file" and be sure what you're dealing with. I think you have to do even more testing on such a knife just to be safe.

I had a little extra money last winter so I stocked up on brand new steel from reputable suppliers. I chose D2, CPMD2, CPM154, CPM3V, 440C, 1095, 1080 and 1084. The main reason being, I'm pretty sure I can do the research and find out how best to deal with them, since I know what they are and others have tested and proven them. They're common enough and have been used enough that there's not much snake-oil involved. Not to pat myself on the back, but this just seems like the efficient way to go about it.

I guess the most important thing I've learned here is to avoid strong language like "always" and "never" and "I know this is the best". I seem to make a fool of myself when I talk like that. :foot:
 
I started with the 50$ Knife Shop as my first book, he really lied to me, $50 my ass. Just funning, thinking how many thousands I am into this for. But the book looking back may have its flaws but for someone just starting it really is a good book. I had more tools than the book called for so It looked like making a knife was doable. I have seen alot of knife books come and go in the book stores but the $50 is always there, I believe this is because it sells well and they keep it in stock.

I still have the first 3-4 knives I made and I dont recall what steel they were, I am sure they are crap.. but I will keep them and look at them and love them. They are mine and only mine.
 
Sweany said:
if so seems to me the original post was taking things out of context.

I haven't read the article myself, and would like to know.
thanks.
Click to expand...

Sweany,

No, my quote was verbatim. However, I proved a great point with this thread that anyone can take a line and go off the deep end. The actual reply below gives some very good info, however to the uninformed reader, they may take this as lawnmower blade steel is a viable source and waste much time and energy (as well as money for gas / coal / quenchant / electricity, etc.) thinking that because of the one line that Wayne said, that they were doing something incorrectly and continue the exercise...or worse yet, posting to here asking the same thing.

The actual reply to the reader was:

"Once or twice a year I see or hear about blades that did not respond to a quench. I would estimate that 90 percent of such cases it is the steel and not the quenchant. Your experience with this blade points out the necessity of quench testing any new source of steel before investing time in making a blade from it.

I have never seen a lawnmower blade that would not harden. I am wondering if Sears, which sells the Craftsman mowers, might be making bi-metal blades (in which hard and abrasive steel is applied to a springy and tough steel). many hacksaw and band-saw blades for metal cutting are bi-metal. It makes a stronger blade and with only the expensive hard steel as the edge, it saves money.

Take a close look at the section of blade that does the cutting. Look for a different appearance in the surface between the back and edge. Spark test it by touching the cutting edge to an abrasive wheel or belt; do the same with the back of the blade and look for difference in the color and type of spark. As a last resort, if you can, send me a piece containing part of the cutting edge and back so I can test it.

The temperature when the steel goes non-magnetic is the low end of the critical temperature range. If a blade is quenched immediately when going non-magnetic, it may not fully harden because either the proper temperature was not reached or because a little soak tmie is needed to get fully hard. Full hardening is usually done at a somewhat higher temperature.

Try this: When heating for the quench, let the blade increase in temperature for another 10 seconds or so after it loses its ability to attract the magnet. Work this out with rectangular strips to save the effort of making a blade for each quench test."
 
Well, there has been alot of rants and raves, but no facts here. There has been a lot of patting ones selves for taking the scientific approach, but no science. All over the world knives are fashioned each and every day from used steel. Those that use repurposed steel professionally know how to test the steel for usefullness. It appears that Mr. Goddard tells briefly how to do this.
To say that knives should only be made from new steel labeled for use as knife blades precludes a lot of steels. To say steel for making knives should only come from certain sources is simply superstitousness rebranded. Most knives are made from steel used "off label". You should get to know your steel, and if you use used steel from a variety of sources you better have a short learning curve.
Persons on this thread have offered as proof of lawnmower blades unsuitability tales of softness. No science there! Annealled steel can be soft. Lets hear what it is like after heat treating. No charts? Figure it out.
Offer real proof of his fallacies, rather than standing on a dung heap ranting about people standing on dung heaps, ranting.
If you are going to stand behind the shield of science offer scientific fact.
Wayne Goddard has brought many people into the hobby of knifemaking with his low buck approach. Many have learned the basics and then furthered their own quest for knowledge. Some come here for answers. Lets provide answers and not just useless and inflammatory rhetoric.
Alden
 
Last edited:
The only fact about all this is no 2 people will ever agree on whats the right way to do it, or whats the best to use. I myself am new to knifemaking, and for the last 2 years have tried everything I can get my hands on and only got good results when experienced knifemakers pointed me in the right direction including what to use and how to use it. I loved parts of the 50 D.K.S, heck I made every single jig he showed in the book, and they work like magic!!! Everyones entiled to their opinion and thats what keeps us grounded. The only thing about this that upset me personally is when I started out making knives I would spend countless hours trying to get good results with things like lawnmower blades and it never panned out. I dont doubt for one second that their is good quality lawnmower blades that can make awesome knives, but I havent seen one yet. I have heat treated, quenched in quality oil, tempered and they would not hold an edge good. Now I dont know anything about the science of knife making, I should definitely learn about it, but when it comes to recording the results of test on different metals I have that 10 fold. Mr. Goddard makes BEAUTIFUL knives and I probaly wont ever learn as much as he forgets. I have a ton of respect for him, just as I do for anyone that teaches new people knife making, but I guess I hold a gruge against lawnmower blades for costing me alot of time and money that could have been used towards good metal. I am only intrested in making knives that hold a good edge.
 
Alden Sherrodd said:
To say that knives should only be made from new steel labeled for use as knife blades precludes a lot of steels. To say steel for making knives should only come from certain sources is simply superstitousness rebranded.
Click to expand...

Alden,

Very few people here argue the fact that Mr. Goddard has brought life into the art by making people realize that their passion can be obtained. And no one stated you had to use "new" steel or "certain source" steel. What was said was known steel. A leaf spring does not have to be new yet if you don't know that it's 5160, then test it or have it tested so you know what you are dealing with. My point was that to have a well known maker state in a widely published periodical that he's never seen a lawn mower blade that couldn't be hardened is misleading. Yes, a mower blade from 20 years ago is probably not the same as the production model you see today. As he very well stated, technology has advanced and with that they've found cheaper means to accomplishing the same effect. If I go to the scrapyard down the road and grab a chunk of steel off the pile, hammer or grind out a blade, HT it and then do a spark test, does that mean I've made the same thing as Mr. Cashen or Mr. Apelt using known steels with proven hardening and testing or did I just make a blade that will barely (if at all) pass as a sharp tool? This industry should be based on a standard. A Rockwell scale is a standard. Salt pots and engineered quenchants are a standard. Skating a file on the edge or using automatic transmission fluid may work, but I think most people that buy a custom or hand made knife would like to know that what they are getting is better than what they can get at Walmart for $29.99. This and any of the above posts are my opinion and I do not mean to offend anyone, just point out how people who are looked at as experts need to be aware of what they say and how they say it. Bill Gates once said something to the effect of "Nobody will ever need more that 640K of RAM in a computer". Well, that proved to be extremely erroneous but at the time, that was his opinion. According to interviews when he is asked about that statement, he gets a good laugh and says something to affect of "who knew?".
 
Thanks guys for calling it like you see it. I am glad to see people willing to disagree in public even if they run a risk of losing face.

Thanks for starting this thread Erik!
 
deker said:
In my opinion Kevin, people quote you because you are a voice of reason, whose words are constructed in such a way as to impart wisdom, not sell snake oil. We're not worshiping the holy totem of Cashen,…
Click to expand...

Let’s see about that. If there are those whose immediate reaction was to not copy or quote my stuff anymore or apologize for collecting my information just because I questioned it, it may be a bit more about me than about the information, and that is what I don’t want it to be. If the information makes sound sense and can stand on its own, use it all you like. But it must stand on its own, if you were to pass my own information back to me and offer the fact that I said it as proof of validity, I would quickly point out the flaw in your thinking.

Look at the same tired old routine when you dare challenge unverified wisdom of a popular “expert”, and you are quickly confronted by Kool-Aid drinkers intent on defending the faith. You will not be presented with any data or facts supporting the claims in question; instead you will be asked to do handstands (and the acolyte’s homework for them) to prove a negative to a level that was NEVER asked of their idol before eagerly chugging from the punch bowl. The common pattern only continues if you allow your time to be wasted with providing countering information only to have it dismissed or ignored by a mind that will accept no information, no matter how compelling, that would upset their comfortable world view. They don’t care about opposing data or they would put just an ounce of energy into finding it on their own. The reason they embraced the doctrine in question is because it felt good to have it spoon fed to them without intellectual effort on their part, why the heck would they want to start working for knowledge now? And that is the toxic leader/follower syndrome that I will have nothing to do with. Some say that I use terms in my posts that require they consult a book just to understand what I am saying. To this I only have one thing to say- GOOD! If my posts force people to research and learn on their own so that they are able to independently verify that what I am saying is not a load of crap then I have indeed done more good with one post than all of the feel good books and articles written thus far!

Don’t get me wrong Deker, I am very honored by the value some people put on my input and I am appreciative, but if my input must be anything my sincerest wish is that it be the antidote or cure for the cult of personality based dogma that knifemaking has been fed for too long, and not a replacement for it. I once said that I hand out information like guns to an oppressed population, but that is all I want to do as history is littered with populations that upon achieving freedom immediately installed the next dictator. This thread gives me a lot of hope, not because of any unnecessary pot shots at a known smith, but because we finally have enough independent thought to question and challenge the status quo in print.

deker said:
… you tend more often than not to deal in absolutes,…
Click to expand...

I find this most intriguing due to how rising relativism in our society would have most believe that absolutes are absolutely wrong, and that anybody who speaks in absolutes is absolutely wrong (do you see the irony in this). However, reasonable people will realize that there are indeed no absolutes, which means that instead of just shades of gray there are in fact some absolutes as well in our world. While there is prose with nuance, there is also binary code; yes or no, true or false and the difference is mostly how we choose to approach it. Some would say “1045 makes a decent knife” and feel safe hiding behind the fact that this is a position that can be true or false for any given person. While I prefer to say that 1045 simply will not reach 60 Rockwell no matter how you quench it and then allow you to decide with the confidence that you have solid, absolute data to make a sound decision. That is the strength I see in absolutes and solid numbers. Instead of worrying about what you may “feel” a knife should be, and whether that jives with my feelings, I can just give you real tangible tools to make those decisions on your own.
 
Thanks Kevin for your good posts and explanation of your opinions.

However, I am not an absolute supporter. I believe that vodka is mostly a waste of money. Good scotch, specifically islay, and more specifically Laphroaig, is a much better way to go. Macallan 18 is a good backup for when an islay isn't right for the job.

Stacy
 
I haven't read the articl, but if this is what was said,

"Once or twice a year I see or hear about blades that did not respond to a quench. I would estimate that 90 percent of such cases it is the steel and not the quenchant. Your experience with this blade points out the necessity of quench testing any new source of steel before investing time in making a blade from it.

I have never seen a lawnmower blade that would not harden. I am wondering if Sears, which sells the Craftsman mowers, might be making bi-metal blades (in which hard and abrasive steel is applied to a springy and tough steel). many hacksaw and band-saw blades for metal cutting are bi-metal. It makes a stronger blade and with only the expensive hard steel as the edge, it saves money.

Take a close look at the section of blade that does the cutting. Look for a different appearance in the surface between the back and edge. Spark test it by touching the cutting edge to an abrasive wheel or belt; do the same with the back of the blade and look for difference in the color and type of spark. As a last resort, if you can, send me a piece containing part of the cutting edge and back so I can test it.

The temperature when the steel goes non-magnetic is the low end of the critical temperature range. If a blade is quenched immediately when going non-magnetic, it may not fully harden because either the proper temperature was not reached or because a little soak tmie is needed to get fully hard. Full hardening is usually done at a somewhat higher temperature.

Try this: When heating for the quench, let the blade increase in temperature for another 10 seconds or so after it loses its ability to attract the magnet. Work this out with rectangular strips to save the effort of making a blade for each quench test."

If this was what was writen in the article, then I'm sorry but in my opion the first post was taken out of context and uncalled for. If that was what was written in the article. If so then basicly what Wayne is saying is that just because he hasn't seen a blade that wouldn't harden they may be ones out there and to test to see if they'll harden before investing a lot of time into an unknown steel.

I don't mean to come off harsh or start anything, but I will be looking forward to reading the article when I get back stateside.
 
Will,
I don't think that Wayne really meant to cause such an issue, and I believe he assumed that he was giving a complete and wise answer to the problem.
I will give you that Wayne stated that the steel is usually the problem, and that any steel should be thoroughly tested before use. The problem was in his statement that ,in his experience,he had never found a lawn mower blade that was not hardenable. He then went on to a personal theory about bi-metal lawn mower blades. I am not going to make an absolute statement that there are no bi-metal lawn mower blades in existence, but as far as I know ,they do not exist. I have tested many lawn mower blades and talked to manufacturers who have confirmed that many/most mower blades are unusable as knife material. The fact that a noted "expert" on knife making would make a statement that will be repeated by many as, "All lawn mower blades make good knives, Wayne Goddard said so.", is the cause for the uproar. On these forums, and during informal chats in the shop, a lot of off-kilter theories and personal ideas get tossed about, but when it is printed in Blade magazine, one should be careful about what one says.

Stacy
 
Kevin R. Cashen said:
I find this most intriguing due to how rising relativism in our society would have most believe that absolutes are absolutely wrong, and that anybody who speaks in absolutes is absolutely wrong (do you see the irony in this). However, reasonable people will realize that there are indeed no absolutes, which means that instead of just shades of gray there are in fact some absolutes as well in our world. While there is prose with nuance, there is also binary code; yes or no, true or false and the difference is mostly how we choose to approach it. Some would say “1045 makes a decent knife” and feel safe hiding behind the fact that this is a position that can be true or false for any given person. While I prefer to say that 1045 simply will not reach 60 Rockwell no matter how you quench it and then allow you to decide with the confidence that you have solid, absolute data to make a sound decision. That is the strength I see in absolutes and solid numbers. Instead of worrying about what you may “feel” a knife should be, and whether that jives with my feelings, I can just give you real tangible tools to make those decisions on your own.
Click to expand...

Perhaps "absolutes" was poor word choice on my part. What I meant to convey is that you have a recorded history of dealing in hard facts, terms with actual definitions, and stated positions on topics, etc. WHICH CAN ALL BE VERIFIED. Now, will I have to it the books to do it? Sure I will. Short of hitting the books (if I can't find the right ones) can I test what you say in my own shop and verify the claims? Yup, sure can. In my experience when I have taken the time to listen to what folks like you, Stacy, and Mete have to say, do my best to understand, and try it in my own shop, it usually works.

A favorite example of this is the change in how I anneal my blades. I used to heat to non-magnetic and dunk into a bucket of wood ash with a couple of other pieces of hot steel and wander away for the day. It's what everybody told me to do, and I had no reason to doubt it. Did it work? Well, for the most part yes, except for the fact that every other blade or so would eat drill bits for lunch, but only after I had gotten through some of it like butter. Then I blamed my drill speed, until I fixed that. For a while I had no explanation for it and my shop ate little carbide tipped masonry bits all the time.

Then, I began to read your explanations of some things about hypereutectoid steels. Then I tried (and failed at the time) to read Verhoeven's book. Then I listed some more, saw you speak, saw your metalography slides, listened to your explanations, and spoke with other smart people about it. Can I understand metallurgical texts yet to go and "verify" your claims? Nope. If I could would that truly be verification? Nope. It would just be me making sure you were in line with what somebody else said. So what did I do? I tried things according to my understanding of your conversations on the topic, and using the temps and times you had given. Guess what. It works. Repeatably. THAT is verification. Does anybody reading this have to believe me? Absolutely not. As a matter of fact, I encourage them all to believe I'm a crackpot and a liar! That is, if that's what it will take to get them to go try it themselves...

The only absolute around here is that folks will disagree in threads like this. That said, as long as we continue to keep it civil, I think that's a great thing.

-d
 
Lawnmower Blade Advice in the Blade Mag
You heard it from Wayne Goddard himself on Page 43 of the Oct 2009 Blade magazine, he hasn't seen a lawnmower blade that couldn't be hardened! Dang it, I knew all ya'll were nuts! Throwin' all my money away on CPM-154, 1084 and O-1 when I could have been scrounging steel from Se:jerkit:ars!!! Now for my next project, some lawnmower blade / Home Depot steel damascus....:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Well actually Eric You did take the quote out of context, of the complete article.
Wayne Goddard said;

I have never seen a lawnmower blade that would not harden
Click to expand...

Using that line from the complete article, and adding in "the throwin my money away on CPM-154,1084 1nd O-1".

This insinuates that Wayne recomends lawnmower blades over known steels.

While in fact he is cautioning some one to test unknown steel. Who is messing about with lawnmower blades.



case in POINT Hypothetical post;

ERIC Recomends:
Dang it, I knew all ya'll were nuts! Throwin' all my money away on CPM-154, 1084 and O-1 when I could have been scrounging steel from Sears!!!
Click to expand...

without the context of your original post I now know that Eric says,
who needs to buy known steel, dumpster dive behind Sears!
Lawnmower blades are better than CPM-154.


The $50.00 knife book in my opion is just a help to get a person that is thinkin about knifemaking, is really unsure if they want to lay out some cash to find out.

Once they have tried testing unkown steel that they can get for free and worked out a heat treat for it, and made a knife that is useable.

Once they do that most folks are hooked and want to make a better knife than the first one they made.

Then, they can advance into known steel, correct quenchant and buy some equipment.



When you work out a heat treat for an unkown steel through testing and observation,. I think it gives you insight into what to look for/change when heat treats go wrong.

Observation and record keeping is a LIFE to learning and advancing your art.

Isn't that what we are all striving for here anyway.
Isn't shared info and discussion the lifeblood of the forums.
Let's keep an open mind and be less quick to point fingers and laugh.


I don't know a lot of first time knifemakers that buy forges,anvils, salt pots and belt grinders and milling machines, just to see if they like knifemaking.

Most new makers unless they are neighbors to a knifemaker will never get past the "the wish I could stage". Wayne has helped them move into knifemaking on the cheap.

Most old school makers I know started out grinding a knife out of whatever steel was handy, working it to the best of their knowlege.
Not a lot of info was out there years ago. Not like today.

It is better to teach a student from where they are at, than to show a student what he can not achive.


my .02
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top