Lawnmower Blade Advice in the Blade Mag

Status
Not open for further replies.
If Wayne says he’s never seen a lawnmower blade that wouldn’t harden, I believe he’s telling the truth. Take it for what it’s worth.

I don’t think it’s the same as saying all lawnmower blades being made in the world today are hardenable,… or that there aren’t better steels out there.

Do I detect just a bit of professional jealousy on this thread?
 
I guess it depends on you definition of hardenable. Heck, mild steel will harden to a degree. That doesn't say it will make the best knife. Beyond that, I'm staying the heck out of this thread!

--nathan
 
Kevin R. Cashen said:
Let’s see about that. If there are those whose immediate reaction was to not copy or quote my stuff anymore or apologize for collecting my information just because I questioned it, it may be a bit more about me than about the information, and that is what I don’t want it to be. If the information makes sound sense and can stand on its own, use it all you like. But it must stand on its own, if you were to pass my own information back to me and offer the fact that I said it as proof of validity, I would quickly point out the flaw in your thinking.

Look at the same tired old routine when you dare challenge unverified wisdom of a popular “expert”, and you are quickly confronted by Kool-Aid drinkers intent on defending the faith. You will not be presented with any data or facts supporting the claims in question; instead you will be asked to do handstands (and the acolyte’s homework for them) to prove a negative to a level that was NEVER asked of their idol before eagerly chugging from the punch bowl. The common pattern only continues if you allow your time to be wasted with providing countering information only to have it dismissed or ignored by a mind that will accept no information, no matter how compelling, that would upset their comfortable world view. They don’t care about opposing data or they would put just an ounce of energy into finding it on their own. The reason they embraced the doctrine in question is because it felt good to have it spoon fed to them without intellectual effort on their part, why the heck would they want to start working for knowledge now? And that is the toxic leader/follower syndrome that I will have nothing to do with. Some say that I use terms in my posts that require they consult a book just to understand what I am saying. To this I only have one thing to say- GOOD! If my posts force people to research and learn on their own so that they are able to independently verify that what I am saying is not a load of crap then I have indeed done more good with one post than all of the feel good books and articles written thus far!

Don’t get me wrong Deker, I am very honored by the value some people put on my input and I am appreciative, but if my input must be anything my sincerest wish is that it be the antidote or cure for the cult of personality based dogma that knifemaking has been fed for too long, and not a replacement for it. I once said that I hand out information like guns to an oppressed population, but that is all I want to do as history is littered with populations that upon achieving freedom immediately installed the next dictator. This thread gives me a lot of hope, not because of any unnecessary pot shots at a known smith, but because we finally have enough independent thought to question and challenge the status quo in print.



I find this most intriguing due to how rising relativism in our society would have most believe that absolutes are absolutely wrong, and that anybody who speaks in absolutes is absolutely wrong (do you see the irony in this). However, reasonable people will realize that there are indeed no absolutes, which means that instead of just shades of gray there are in fact some absolutes as well in our world. While there is prose with nuance, there is also binary code; yes or no, true or false and the difference is mostly how we choose to approach it. Some would say “1045 makes a decent knife” and feel safe hiding behind the fact that this is a position that can be true or false for any given person. While I prefer to say that 1045 simply will not reach 60 Rockwell no matter how you quench it and then allow you to decide with the confidence that you have solid, absolute data to make a sound decision. That is the strength I see in absolutes and solid numbers. Instead of worrying about what you may “feel” a knife should be, and whether that jives with my feelings, I can just give you real tangible tools to make those decisions on your own.
Click to expand...

Kevin, what is funny about your verbose posting here is that you are sugggesting that your followers should not do their own homework! They should blindly follow you, and use your preferred materials and methods.To do otherwise relegates them to a class of Kool-Aid slurping, mouth breathing, flat-earthers licking the boots of someone other than you.
In the article in question the author says to test the material before investing a bunch of time using it. You say never use steel except those recommended by Kevin. Your same old tired argument of those not following in locked step, is those questioning you want you to do "the acolytes homework" for them. How about some simple statements about the question instead of demeaning verbage meant to quiet any opposing views?
Historically, apprentices in the metal trades would have been trained to be able to do some testing to determine the hardenability of unknown steel and to develop a tempering temperature for the tool. You say you want people to do ther own homework, but you say in broad strokes that most people aren't smart enough to understand that not all LMBS are suitable for knives?
Kevin, instead of relegating those that follow the advice of authors other than yourself to a lesser class of beings, how about just good solid advice. The language you use to describe other authors and those not closely following your advice is out of line. Some of us get our info from any source we can find. I for one do not believe everything I read, but think there is something to be gleaned from many sources, even if it is a good laugh.
I do appreciate the information that you share on heat treating and have learned a lot from it. I do respect the solid information you provide and do follow it. But I do not like the name calling.
Respectfully
Alden
 
deker said:
Perhaps "absolutes" was poor word choice on my part…
Click to expand...

Not at all, I thought it was an excellent word! I found it intriguing because I perceived it as being applied as a compliment, a rare occurrence these days. I have no trouble finding it complimentary when somebody accuses me of using absolutes, since for the most part I really reject the current societal trend towards relativism and will not allow it to muddle my thought process down to my “feelings” at the time.
 
Lets just deop this whole thing. No need for anyone getting upset at anyone

What happened was like what happens alot with noted people. The sell issues press and politicians love to use this tactic. A small bit of something someone says is used to make an issue, when the true meaning of the statement was something entirely different. Lets not get sucked into fighting with each other over something thing like this. It just confuses the issue and causes hard feelings. We are better than that!
 
As I stated in a post when the topic of lawn mower blades came up a while back the president of Rotary Corporation told me that the requirements of steel for a lawn mower blade and a knife were not the same. He didn't know off hand what the steel type was the they used, but didn't think it would make a very good knife. When I saw this getting stirred up again, I thought I would see if the water could be cleared a little, at least for the mower blades being made by Rotary Corporation. I sent them an e-mail requesting the steel type that they used in their mower blades and this morning got an answer stating that they used 10b38. In the Heat Treater's Guide it states that 1038 has 0.35 to 0.42 % C and 0.60 to 0.90 Mn, 0.040 P max, 0.050 S max. I understand that the B stands for a boron treatment and I have no idea what that would do to the steel other than it is supposed to increase the hardenability. Well... that is what one manufacturer uses for mower blades. Take it for what it is worth. I am going to stick with 1095 and 1084 just because I like the results I am able to get and I have a pile of it.:D
 
Alden, there are some here who have probably already seen the much more involved and passionate response that I originally posted, but your baseless personal attacks really do speak for themselves and are hardly worth the effort I previously expended

…snip…
 
Last edited:
Wow, I've never had one of my threads locked by the mods before but.....
 
Alden Sherrodd said:
Kevin, what is funny about your verbose posting here is that you are sugggesting that your followers should not do their own homework! They should blindly follow you, and use your preferred materials and methods.To do otherwise relegates them to a class of Kool-Aid slurping, mouth breathing, flat-earthers licking the boots of someone other than you.
In the article in question the author says to test the material before investing a bunch of time using it. You say never use steel except those recommended by Kevin. Your same old tired argument of those not following in locked step, is those questioning you want you to do "the acolytes homework" for them. How about some simple statements about the question instead of demeaning verbage meant to quiet any opposing views?
Historically, apprentices in the metal trades would have been trained to be able to do some testing to determine the hardenability of unknown steel and to develop a tempering temperature for the tool. You say you want people to do ther own homework, but you say in broad strokes that most people aren't smart enough to understand that not all LMBS are suitable for knives?
Kevin, instead of relegating those that follow the advice of authors other than yourself to a lesser class of beings, how about just good solid advice. The language you use to describe other authors and those not closely following your advice is out of line. Some of us get our info from any source we can find. I for one do not believe everything I read, but think there is something to be gleaned from many sources, even if it is a good laugh.
I do appreciate the information that you share on heat treating and have learned a lot from it. I do respect the solid information you provide and do follow it. But I do not like the name calling.
Respectfully
Alden
Click to expand...

This has got to be about the most inaccurate flame I have seen posted in Shop Talk. If the author has an uncontrollable urge to troll, he ought to take this to W&C.
 
Okay, this really has gotten out of hand. I was being sarcastic in my original post meant to show that so many people care about what everyone else says is that they are forgetting the most important fact...your experience is the only experience you can trust. Yes using known materials is important, but at some point it doesn't hurt to try something off the wall. Where would we all be without damascus, etching techniques or any of the million heat treating recipes? There is always someone who tries something and finds that it works and works well. Yes there are known norms but what about the unknown? Many people seem to feel that I attacked Wayne Goddard and in a way I did. But not personally. It was done to show how the giant ball of misinformation can begin and all that this thread has turned into is a mess. I have written what was on my mind, take it for what it's worth. My opinion shouldn't matter to anyone but me. I use O-1, 5160, 1084, CPM-154 and various damascus (made by Del Ealy and Chad Nichols) because that's what works for me. I know what it does, how it acts and what it's limitations are. I don't HT but I know how to do it. I just don't have the facilities or setup. I have HT'd a few knives, then sent them out for independent testing in which it was proven that they hardened as expected and performed well. I don't compare myself to anyone but me. Heading for the Middle East in a few hours so I won't have access to the Internet but I hope you all see this thread for what it is....
 
Steve Hayden said:
This has got to be about the most inaccurate flame I have seen posted in Shop Talk. If the author has an uncontrollable urge to troll, he ought to take this to W&C.
Click to expand...

Steve, perphaps you could point out the inaccuracies to me.

Kevin, read your own posts to see the personal attacks. Perhaps you did read your latest and saw it for what it was, I don't know I didn't see it.
My point is stick to providing information, not name calling entertainment.
Alden
 
Alden Sherrodd said:
Steve, perphaps you could point out the inaccuracies to me.

Kevin, read your own posts to see the personal attacks. Perhaps you did read your latest and saw it for what it was, I don't know I didn't see it.
My point is stick to providing information, not name calling entertainment.
Alden
Click to expand...

My initial post pointed out your inaccuracies step by step and challenged you to back up what has now stooped to slanderous levels in my opinion. I should have known you couldn't just let it go.

I don’t see “moderator” next to your name and you do not dictate to me how or what I post. Especially when I have yet to see you contribute any constructive information yourself, just plenty of demands on others between your insults. None, of my posts addressed a single individual, but were about information in the knife business in general, and more specifically about how I do not want my information used. You however put my name in particular on your mindless diatribe, assigning things to me that I in no way said, and fired it directly at me. So you bet ya that it is now personal.

I must say that I totally reject, and am rather offended, by this attitude that those of us who have contributed time here to help others should simply be endless sources of free information and keep our personal feelings to ourselves. We can just shut up until you ask us for the good solid advice that you want, but only the information that makes you feel good, is that it? All while you insult us and do little more than snivel and whine about how we displeased you ten threads ago (still with the “flat earth” thing, wow, I must have really hit a nerve there, how many months have you been dwelling on it now?)

How about this- I will give whatever advice I feel like whether it meets your approval or not and you can take what you want and let others do the same without your conditions.

The reason I deleted the other post was that you were so quick to get down in the muddy gutter why on earth should I give up the high ground now? You went to that level now you can wallow in it alone, (but do keep that “flat earth” wound out of the mud, it could get infected and never heal;)).
 
TekSec said:
Many people seem to feel that I attacked Wayne Goddard and in a way I did. But not personally.
Click to expand...

There you have it. I will admit to being quite touchy in these threads because of how so many people just cannot separate methods or materials from people, and it really tries ones patience after a while. O.K. I may just think differently than most but I like L6, I really do believe it is the best steel for my large blades. So now please tell me I am full of it! Tell me that you have tried L6 and hate it, that it is hard to forge, nearly impossible to anneal, not worth the trouble for what you get and that I am out of my mind for working with it. Please tell me this so I can agree with you! Not take it personally, and prepare for either a duel or life long grudge, but so I can recognize that you may not like my choices or recommendations and still not have any problem with me personally. I promise that saying my steel choice or method is miserable for you will not be taken as an assault on me and I will know you are not calling me a liar or any other name just because you don’t like my steel.

So you don’t like L6 and you think salt baths are stupid overkill… cool, my name aint “L6” and I am not a tube of salt, I’m Kevin! What kind of scotch to you like? Perhaps I hate it, or perhaps we could sit down and drink some sometime and talk about other things we don’t like.
 
Kevin,

I'd enjoy having a Scotch with you anytime. You've taught me more about heat treating than anyone else, and you've used science to do it, not opinion.
As a retired science teacher, I appreciate that.:)

See you at Ashokan, I'll bring the scotch.:D

Bill
 
I usually avoid posting in these type of threads, as I'm sure lots of folks do - once they get side-tracked it can get ugly. But in this case, I believe I need to make an exception

Alden, I've never met you, but I have met Kevin, at Ashokan. I've spoken with him face to face, asked him plenty of dumb questions and watched lots of others ask him dumb and not-so-dumb questions. I've never seen him be insulting/derisive/condescending toward a single person. I've never seen him claim his way is the only way, and in fact there is a lot of lively, NON-PERSONAL, give and take at Ashokan.

I read and re-read the actual words posted here, and I really don't see what your problem is. You've either mis-read or over-read what Kevin posted, and made what I (IMHO) consider very ill-advised remarks.

I've looked over other threads you've posted in, and there seems to be a similar pattern - not sure why, maybe just the nature of Internet communications.

Neither Kevin,you, nor anyone else, needs "defenders" or "acolytes" in order to speak their opinions. Being civil is the least we can all do in a forum that we frequent because we have a common interest in knives and steel.

Bill
 
Unfortunately for the distracters, it’s still true …I still haven’t seen a lawnmower blade that wouldn’t harden.

Justin sent me the blade that wouldn’t harden. It annealed at 38Rc, for the quench I let it climb maybe 100F past where it wouldn’t attract a magnet. A warmed goop quench resulted in a hardness of 55Rc, a 400F temper lowered it to 53Rc. I’d venture to say that it’s a medium carbon steel, probably has some nickel in it. It wouldn’t make a very good knife.

A blade made of junk steel properly treated will make a far superior blade when compared to steel of known value improperly heat treated.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top