LETS ALL PREY FOR THOSE STUDENTS AND LAW ENFORCEMENT AND PARENTS, GOD BLESS..

Mike T, I'm afraid you are wrong in your view that this is limited to the USA . . . here in South Africa a couple of years ago gunmen stormed into a suburban church during the Sunday evening service with automatic weapons and hand grenades. A church, in a residential suburb, during a service . . . 11 people dead, many seriously physically disabled, and dozens wounded . . . the nett result . . . the killers have been granted amnesty, yes amnesty from prosecution.

We've had our fair share of violence in SA, but for me this was the most bizarre, made worse by the nett result.

The world is a very sick place these days. I can't help but think that the human race are beginning to behave like rats (4 billion and growing) in a cage (our planet). We're preying on one another . . .

My sympathies to all those involved in the Colorado school shooting.

HILTON
 
I add my prayers to the many already offered. May God have mercy.

This is a horrible tragedy. I hope noone on these forums calls it a "senseless tragedy". That is simply an utter and complete cop out to assessing what has happened here and trying to learn from it. There are individuals responsible who acted deliberately and with malice toward a large number of other individuals resulting in the loss of 25 lives (last I heard). The two (or more?) responsible were part of a group. The group is still around. It's time to ask some hard questions. I hope the people in authority are up to finding some reasons behind this ultimate act of violence against so many. If we don't learn what was behind these individuals actions, then indeed it may be a "senseless tragedy". I hope and pray there is followup information provided which provides some insight and help for the future.

God help us all!
 
My prayers are with all involved. I did some heavy praying last night before retiring. I know God is listening!

GOD BE WITH ALL!

Mark
 
First of all, let me say that my prayers are with everyone involved in this mess and I hope to God we can figure out a way to stop these kinds of tragedies.

One thing that bothers me is the anti-gun backlash I know will come out of this. I've noticed that most of the anti's and even some people here think that we must reduce the accesibility of firearms. I think this is the wrong way to go about it. The last thing we need is the government making another regulation that limits our freedom and hurts the law-abiding citizen. I saw on TV a woman who is lobbying for a law that requires all guns to be locked up and the owners to be held responsible if they aren't.If this kind of law is passed, what's gonna happen when some people can't afford safe's that are up to gov. regulations? And how can you protect your family if your guns must all be stored in a vault with combination, key lock, and a time delayed opening?

And remember, accessibility is not the problem. I have had access to a wide variety of firearms since I was 6 years old(and Ive never even had a speeding ticket!). The accessibility of illegal drugs has been reduced and restricted to hell and back; yet anybody from age 10-100 can still get them if they really want them. Also, if these guys were methodical and determined enough to have timed explosives, Dont you think they would be resourceful enough to overcome a little accesibility problem?
 
I too offer my prayers for the innocent victims of this tragedy.
I think it's much too early to attribute reasons for this happening, but I can speculate on two underlying causes.
1] Households where all parents have to work, to make ends meet. Kids have to pretty much raise themselves. There was a quote on the news this morning regarding a faculty-parent forum held at this school. With 160 kid student body, 4 parents showed up.
2] The restrictions placed on parents who attempt to do the right thing, and try to discipline their offspring. The only avenue left for parents seems to be "time-out". It's not too surprising to me that even parents who want to do the right thing, just throw in the towel. The children know that they run the home, as well as the school.
I am not saying that there are not other causes, but these two, more than any other, exemplify the difference between my generation and this one.

------------------
Live free and buy. It's the American way.
 
I really enjoyed reading all of your postings about this. It is a sad day in Colorado here and we are all stunned.

I hope you will keep the families in your fervent prayers, and remember that our children need hope, and joy in their lives that begins and ends with us, their parents.

Dont rely on the village to raise your child, hold their hearts and minds in your own hands and teach them the values you hold dear.

Danelle

[This message has been edited by djo62 (edited 21 April 1999).]
 
Krom,

I think you are definately right on the two reasons you gave. I think the breakdown of family is the biggest cause of many of these types of problems in America.
 
I must say to one and all "Well said"
I too, send up my prayers to our gracious and merciful Lord Jesus. I pray for all of the victims of this atrocity as well as the families.
Being the father of a strong-willed 3 year old girl(with another on the way) I pray my wife and I raise our children to love and respect life.
Danelle,
I agree with you, about not relying on the village to raise our children. Looking art recent trends the village isn't doing so well.

While I believe that television and certain types of music weigh in, I wouldn't place all blame there. There are many things that factor in. Raising children is an awesome gift and an even more awesome responsibility. I for one pray I am up to the challenge.
God bless and keep you all.


------------------
*Norse Knife Nut*

"Military" Fans Unite!!

"The only limitation is lack of imagination."

 
Facts:
1) A bunch of acknowledged and known misfits ; some 20+ in
number, went nuts and shot up a school. Remembering highschool, a
closeknit group of 20+ like-thinkers does not escape some degree of
attention.
2) Said misfits broadcasted threats and their brand of hate for ample
time prior to their actions
3) Students of school state that said misfits had made threats
4) The police deny any prior knowledge of the existence of said
misfits
5) School "authorities" apparently did nothing to avert said threats,
and at this point in time, have not acknowledged awareness of
threats.

OK, so given our current-day intrusive society, wherein almost any
move one makes is known, why didn't the school, social welfare,
child services, et al do anything prior to this incident? What about
the parents? I'm a lot younger than many of you, but when I
stepped out of line, I had no end of grief.
I went to a Catholic school until I began highschool....the nuns were
not there to be my friends, they were my bosses. Sure I rankled, but
I learned self-discipline. If I kept my mouth shut, they didn't invade
my mind. They also taught personal responsibility for actions. I went
to school with rich kids and poor migrant farm kids.

This new Colorado incident is going to bring a torrent of anti-gun
fervor, so get ready and get prepared...
We are going to see what this society really is all about and exactly
why this incident happened...and that is the underlying belief system
and impulses that we have elected to govern us and enact
legislation:
Outlaw (or restrict) an activity or object that is not inherently
wrong in order to prevent harm before it occurs.

This type of legislation creates crime in order to prevent crime.
English common law distinguished between 2 types of crimes: malum
in se morally wrong crime like murder, rape, theft and malum
prohibitum activities wrong because of legislative pronouncement.
We have ample malum in se laws and everyday enact more malum
prohibitum laws in the interest of "public safety", and these laws are
Federalized. That means, that the act of "malum in se" is less than
the act of "malum prohibitum"....meaning, the fact that I shot you is
less wrong than the fact that I had the means to shoot you. This
translates to: laws that criminalize innocent action in order to
prevent crime before it occurs presumes guilt before the fact. Such
laws operate on the principle that the conduct of criminals dictates
the range of liberty that the society in toto may have. In short, a
society that accomodates itself to crime.
This leads to, and we have all seen it, making personal responsibility
irrevelant...there is more horror and evilness that I killed you with a
gun than the fact I killed you at all.

This is all in the interests in safety, but, how can the world be made
safe if we continue to make responsibility irrelevant?
 
Colorado is this close to a concealed carry law...seems the criminals are already carrying concealed...hmm?

Will be interesting to hear the hot topics at the NRA's National Convention here next week..

Danelle
 
Spark, Jim, or somebody, can we change the "prey" in the thread title to "pray". Under the circumstances, the spelling is most unfortunate.

------------------
Walk in the Light,
Hugh
 
Hugh .. I agree, should be PRAY! But, I know GOD and all understand what was originally meant. God knows my spelling is something to be desired as well.

God Bless,
Mark
 
I am not usually critical of others' spelling, but this one really bothered me and I took a long time getting up the brass to post that comment.

------------------
Walk in the Light,
Hugh
 
I don't know what to make of the situation. I just got engaged. I am on my way to getting married. I want kids. But now I don't know anymore. Why would I want to bring kids into this world? IS it really going to be worth it? I still stand by my saying that kids are born without souls, at least a good bunch of them. Maybe they are born to parents who sold theirs. Any baby has big, blue, wondering eyes...so does every kitten, puppy, and chick. We are all cute when we are pups. This is what happens when we know that there are no eternal ramifications of what we do in life. No Soul=No Hell.....

I am all tore up about this. The ramifications of this are going to be huge. The firestorm of legislation is going to hit and create more problems. If someone steals my truck and mows down school kids in the playground, am I the one held liable because I didn't use the Club, let the air out of the tires, and pull the Distributer cap? HELL NO!! If someone steals my guns, and kills people, all of the sudden I am going to be held liable? I DON"T F*****G THINK SO!!!

In the same hand, what are we going to have to do? People are blaming movies, music, and everything else under the sun. I have heard everything from that they are part of an anarchist group to that this is a government "fundraiser". As a backlash, I wonder how many teenage FBI agents there are going to be infiltrating the school systems in order to quell things like this.

One of the things I told my Fiance, and that I will hold to come hell or high water, one of us will stay home with the kids, and the kids will NOT go to public school. Now I have more reason to stick with this plan.

To top this all off, I want to be a teacher. I don't know about you, but if I had an inklingthat this was going to happen in my school, I would have done my damnedest to keep it from happening....and I would have made at least one, small, 9mm preparation. IF a teacher had a gun, this could have been stopped quickly...

Sorry for the rambling....Lack of Coffee, and I'm having a little trouble comprehending this....I can't believe I used my 400th post on this subject.

YeK

------------------
God is dead. -Nietzsche
Nietzsche is dead. -God
ICQ#29020619
 
Yekim,
If u didn't know, I went to a private high school myself and carried weapons amongst those who did. I started because others started and were willing to use them. I wasn't alone, I was on the defense. I had the prison mentality then.

I'm not saying public schools or home schooling are better/worse. I'm saying you'd better check stuff out.

Emotions are and will keep running high, deservedly so. I will question and ask why this happened but for now, I will meditate and prepare.

Peace to all,
smoke
 
The last thing I want to do is turn this into a gun debate. But, something to think about in view of the statement below. Considering that they apparently had booby-trapped themselves, one or more cars, and some parts of the school... if they hadn't had firearms, they may have very well killed more people by blowing up the whole school.

--------------------------
"Access to weapons is another problem. There is no getting around it. If those kids didn't have firearms, they could not have killed 25 people. If we are not willing to remove the accessibility of arms, we have no choice but to reduce the appetite to use them."
--------------------------

Yes, access to firearms is a problem. But, the willfulness to perpetrate such an act as they did is a bigger problem. Through news, movies, TV series', music, or whatever, the youth (even the people in general) have been de-sensitized to the total brutality of taking the life of another human. I find interesting someone's post that methods the gov't has used on soldiers to desensitize them to killing have found their way into modern media. I'm not surprised by it, though.

I am just totally dumbfounded by this incident. I don't have the capability to comprehend it. Forgive me if I rambled a bit. The victims and families will be in my prayers.

_Dogboy

 
If you would like some insight into the reasons for this and other violence by young people, read "On Killing" by Lt. Col. David Grossman, USA. It is a fascinating and profoundly scary book. His point is that the "operant training" that is used in the military and law enforcement agencies is also being sold to people in movies, such as "Natural Born Killers", and in video games such as those described in the news articles. The difference is that the military and LEOs put very stiff controls on the use of weapons and penalties for their misuse, while there is little or none in the video game world. The result is what he calls "acquired violence immune disorder". The operant training does not make them violent, it turns off the ingrained controls against violence.

------------------
Walk in the Light,
Hugh


[This message has been edited by FullerH (edited 21 April 1999).]

[This message has been edited by FullerH (edited 22 April 1999).]
 
The political backlash has already started happening...The Colorado Legislature has decided to drop two bills that were supposed to be voted on TODAY...One was a CCW bill, and the other was to repeal restrictions on handguns in Co....

I am getting sick of this pattern. Why is it, whenever there is legislation either for gun control being proposed, or the repealing of gun control laws, something nasty happens...?

I am not the consumate conspiracy theorist, but I know that alot of people have agendas...and are willing to do the worst to further them. The chain of dead surrounding Klinton is evidence of that.

YeK
 
GOD BLESS THE CHILDREN!!!!
I don't understand,
One...How do these kids get access to firearms and so much ammo, ect.

Two...What fault lies in the society of life in America, that these children choose to carry out such acts of inhamane devestation to those of their own likenesses? Is the pressure so great, to leave such a legacy in history...Is it the beginning of a millenium of CLOCKWORK ORANGE violence??? Too scary, too scary!!!

Three...What will be done, or better yet what can be done?

On Earth..As it is, mankind will..??

 
Like others on the group, my first thought was to get ready for another assault on the second amendment.
However, the more I learn about this horrible incident, the more I am convinced that the firestorm will hit the internet. I further predict that we will find that the usual suspects that line up to attack the second amendment, will be defending the rights of the nut fringe to publish what they want on the web, in keeping with their first amendment rights. Mark my words.

------------------
Live free and buy. It's the American way.
 
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