Let's be friends :)

Benaround and Naamarie:

I believe you about the schools. There is something very wrong there. We may be farther gone than I realized.

On one hand, the education should be substancial enough that the tests are of modest concern to the students and teachers. It does sound though, that the standards, the means and methods, or the goals of the testing be re-examined and perhaps broadened.

But it is a 'no brainer' that a high school grad should be able to read, write, adn do simple arithmetic. It would be nice if they had an understanding of our Nation and its history. (other than Democrate good; Republican bad)

munk
 
I think that the true "top" students shouldn't be affected by their schools having a narrow curriculum. You really don't learn anything in high school anyway, I think more students should be advised to enter college early if possible (around age 16 or before, even).

It has been my experience that with tests, schools place too much emphasis (and waste so much time) on test-taking "strategies", which entirely ignores the purpose of the test.
 
High school today for top students is "college prep." Not sure how I feel 'bout this.
 
namaarie said:
High school today for top students is "college prep."
I was in High School from 1954 to 1958. We got to chose from several programs, depending on what our plans were for the future. They were College Prep, General Ed, Business, Home Economics, Agricultural, or Trades.

The College Prep courses were a little more advanced and were geared towards making us ready for college. We had to learn Math up to Calculus, two years of Latin, and I don't remember what else.

The general ed classes were for kids who planned to work in a factory or get some other job right out of HS. They met the state standards, but were generally easier and taught stuff like Practical Arithmetic instead of Math.

The Business program was mostly for girls who wanted to be secretaries, while Home Ec was for those who wanted to be housewives.

The Ag program was of course for the farmers, all of whom belonged to the FFA and wore those blue jackets.

Those who wanted to learn a trade went to a special trade school. We had a Boys' Trade School and a Girls' Trade School. The boys could learn to be a mechanic, a machinist, a plumber, a carpenter, etc. and were guaranteed a good job and union status. They probably made out best of anybody. The girls could learn to be seamstresses and work in a sewing factory. They probably had other trades, but I don't know what they were. There were no girls in the construction trades in those days.
 
I'm just happy that it's over...







and that Bush won. :D

Kerry gets a little bit of my respect for not dragging the whole thing on though.


The election coverage was quite a distraction from doing homework! :eek:
 
John R. Shirley
October 2004

I love this time, the twilight. All of the harshness is gone, bathed in a gentleness that the crickets cannot help celebrating. I celebrate it too, for while some may see the day dying, I see and feel a promise that life is good and worth living, and that tomorrow, new and mysterious, is drawing the curtains in preparation for a scene change.
As I sit alone in my car, facing green fields and distant industrial buildings and the bleak rear of the local strip mall, it is easy to feel the age of the earth, but to find it reassuring, infused as it is with vibrancy. Life cannot help persistency, and being human means life must give me joy to encourage my drive to survive. Tonight, as it does most every night at this time, it has.
We as Americans are once again being subjected to the frequent heat and occasional light of a hotly contested presidential election. I have a favorite, which I know will be best for the country. Even though he has proven himself a politician in the past- with the usual failings- I am confident that, if he is elected, birds will sing, small children will frolic, and all will be well with the world.
Regardless of which politicians and parties triumph, though, the earth will keep spinning. Days will come, and nights. Joy will visit, as well as sadness. In the big picture, no matter how vital we find this political struggle, it’s no big deal. Twilight and dusk, then night. Dawn follows.

John
 
Geez, where to start? :rolleyes:

Ben Arown-Awile said:
Munk,
All of those issues could have positive benefits for some, but they all have negative aspects. School vouchers for example lead to Private Charter Schools which are out of the mainstream. Instead of teaching traditional history and the scientific method, they could, and do, teach the World According to Jesus. Religion is fine to practice at home, but the youth need an education that puts them on equal footing with the rest of the modern world..

So "choice" which is such a liberal tenet that it is enshrined in the Democrats permanent lexicon has no place when it comes to schools? Your statement sets up a convenient and invalid straw man and then knocks it down. There are many, many charter schools that are not religious in any way, and many voucher programs that do not "lead" to charter schools in any case but are far more successful than our institutionalized teacher union driven form of mass "education."

Religion and religious organizations have no place in the government. Our history is replete with their "good deeds" using federal monies. Reservation mission schools to Christianize the heathen savages comes easily to mind, as does the concept and result of "Manifest Destiny" which was ordained by "God" and paid for by the taxpayers.

Again, untrue. The First Amendment forbids the establishment of a national religion only; not religion per se. Our country was founded by people with a deep religious belief, and the Constitution was a "divinely inspired" document. A hundred changes would have to take place to make this statement true, from removing the words "In God We Trust" from our currency to eliminating the Senate Chaplains office. Don't believe, fine, but don't decree the rest of us cannot.

Tort reform usually means that some corporate entity becomes immune to court action and can be less accountable for it's products and actions.

So better to allow lawyer's to sue without restraint and drive up the cost of almost every single consumer product made? That hasn't worked for us so far.

Accountability in schools and standard testing is something I see close up every day. There is so much accountability and filling out of bureaucratic forms that the teachers have a lot less time for actually teaching. The implementation of systems of accountability has required the diversion of large expenditures for administrators and other non-teaching personnel. This is money that was formerly used in the actual education process to benefit the students.

My company is in the business of creating the standardized tests for most students in the country, and they do more than measure student progress, they also measure teacher knowledge (or usually lack of same) as well as track all sorts of demographic information that is extrememly useful to the states. The alternative is to revert to the past situations of zero accountability for teacher's unions that demanded more and more of the community resources but were not willing to demonstrate in any way that they were doing their jobs.

Standard testing, has pretty much destroyed out local school district, as well as many others around the country. In an attempt to conform and reach the mandated standards, the curriculum has been reduced to just what is on "The Test". The grade schools only teach reading and math. No more history, science, music, art, or P.E. We are no longer producing well rounded, educated, citizens. We are producing robots who can pass a specific test.

Better than the robots we produced in the past who couldn't pass any kind of test at all.

Privatizing SS and allowing workers to invest their own money sounds great. But, who will pick up the tab when they lose their invested retirement savings because of market crashes, stock manipulations, or corporate bankruptcies?

The same folks who will pick up the tab when the Federal Government eventually (and inevitably) defaults on its obligations to pay me back the money they owe me for a lifetime of SS payroll contributions. No one. You pays your money and you takes your chances. Only hard core cradle to grave nanny-state liberals believe that the Government has an "obligation" to save people from themselves. I will gladly trade the lousy 2% return the incompetent FedGov is giving me on my SS money in exchange for all the money now, and I will be responsible for myself and the investment of the $ from here on out. I could make better investment decisions standing on my head, and would have to be an idiot to not be able to do better than 2%. If I blow it, that's my responsibility and problem to deal with. It's my money; give it back to me. Of course, that will limits Governments ability to make my decisions for me and will undermine the nanny state mentality, but that's just too bad.

By the way, I also don't call 911 immediately if someone is trying to break into my home, have my own state-of-the-art sprinkler system that means I probably will not have to call the fire department, and am off the electric grid as much as possible using solar. It's called individual responsibility. Other than paying taxes for national defense and to keep the streets clean and paved, and the exorbitant amount I pay in school taxes for a half-assed job, the combined Local, State and Federal Governments should be paying _me_.

I don't think The Second Amendment is really the issue. If we had a society that produced content, secure, confident citizens instead of insecure, paranoid, neurotics, we probably wouldn't feel such an overwhelming need to arm ourselves against our perceived threats.

"Perceived" threats? What about real threats? So because I have had to defend my life with a firearm on at least two occassions, and have done so successfully, that is because I am discontented, insecure, and unconfident, and am insecure, paranoid and neurotic? Question: am I allowed to arm myself againts real threats? Oh, that's right, liberals say I should just call the cops. You know, "dial 911 and die".

I see a real pattern running through this mail, and it is in direct odds to just about everything I believe. I think the concept of _individual_ liberty is anathema to you, and actually scares you.

Here's an idea for you: I think the Government should pass legislation outlawing the sale of "killer khukuri knives", whose only purpose is to kill and maim. Obviously the Government knows best about this kind of thing and is helping us out by deciding for us. Will you support this legislation? After all, it's for "the chirren", and if it saves just one life...!! (?) Don't want to appear insecure, paranoid and neurotic by having a "KHUK death weapon" in the house, do you? What's the matter with you anyway? Society has obviously failed you.

N.
 
Svashtar,
I have nothing I can say to respond to your post. Anyone who would consider me a "liberal" is obviously is on a different plane of awareness and hearing voices other than mine.

Good luck and keep up your guard because those whom you had to defend yourself against are probably coming back.
 
Gentlemen,

Please refer to the title of the thread. Academic political talk? Cool. Heart-felt beliefs? Groovy. But no hot tempers, please. This thread was designed to heal the political rifts that may have developed, even within this forum. It was certainly not intended to reopen the wound.

If you want to hash things out, please start a gloves-off thread. As this thread's author, I emplore you: Take your quarrel elsewhere.

We're all friends in this one. Shake hands like men and move on with life. Agree do disagree. These are acceptable for this thread.

The tongue-lashings are not appreciated.
 
Benaround is an Iconoclast. His politics from what I've seen are not particularly liberal or conservative.


munk
 
I'll second munk's appraisal. Iconoclast and Curmudgeon both fit Benarown. The main problem with him is he's sometimes right when you don't want to admit it.
 
Since Munk and Rusty have my number, I feel absolutely naked.
I need a new personality. I need to be Born Again. I think I'd like to be re-born as a Neutered Tom Cat, then all I'd have to do is sleep, eat, and get fat. Actually if I didn't have a computer and a credit card that's pretty much what I do now.
 
I wish that we could get beyond the election, but I can not resist...
Testing children in Illinois means that now 5th graders get tested on first grade math. This way everyone passes. Testing and accountability mean that education gets dumbed down so that everyone passes. The kids are getting screwed!

Privatizing social security means that when I retire, I will get less than I should, so that a few rich people can make money on the stock market. Current retirees get their money from current workers. IF the current workers put their SS money in stocks and not the social security fund, then the money has to come from retirees or from the general tax revenue. Not a good deal for older people, or for some younger ones. This is a great deal for people already in the market - their wealth will go up.

Don't we already have enough older people working at Walmart?

Outsourcing is a real problem for all of us. Our borders are wide open and the jobs are going overseas. I had a problem with installing Norton Utilities last week. I couldn't get my computer running after the install, so I called Symantic. Guess who I spoke to? A guy in India who spent 46 minutes on the phone and could not help me (or speak much English). I figured out the fix in a few hours, but finally got the same advice from Symantic 5 days later by email.

India loves our current and future administration.

We are not solving our nation's problems by sending all of the good jobs overseas.

I read the idea of tax reform as a mechanism to raise my taxes so wealthy people can get a break. The top 1% of the earners, making over 1 million per year, got $78,000 tax breaks. I can not see this as fair to those people making average incomes. More of the same is not going to be good for most people - the average person (the bottom 60% of income earners) got about $150 last year. The child tax credit helped some people, but I figure that I had better save some money for retirement. I did ok on the tax break, but I would rather see more money go to education, health, and police and fire services.

On the economy - you can't prop up excessive debt forever. I see homes for sale on every corner now, and they are not selling. This never happened before in my neighborhood. Houses here normaly sold within a day or two. Borrowing 25% of your income each year will eventually cost you....and the stuff is about to hit the fan. INTEREST rates are on the way up to save the dollar. All of us will pay for irresponsible spending and finances.

None of these comments are ideologically based - they are practical. I would like to be able to see Americans getting the good jobs, not people in other countries.
 
THere is a later night host on CNN -Brown- who asked his democratic guest why all the ideas for reform and the future were on the Republican side? Brown is hardly a republican.

Arty- if you don't like the ideas, let's improve them, or put better on the table. We know what will happen if we do nothing- disaster.

munk

outsourcing- like Heinz does- if anyone knows a solution I'd like to hear it.
 
Oh, and about Benaround- he's said some absolutely insensitive things before and I've blasted him for it. Being independent doesn't mean you get to whisper loudly at a wedding reception you wonder how many of the male guests the Bride's slept with previously.....

But I'm not comfortable as 'judge' around here ....and Benaround has shown a lot more of his human side the last year. The truth is the sad grump has found acceptance.


mun
 
To clarify, Munk, my comment wasn't really aimed at BenArownAwhile. It was simply the situation. A little too heated. It's over now, though. Didn't mean it to sound like an attack of my own. :)
 
Whoah!

Is it just me, or did Ben Around Too Long just totally wimp out here?

You're letting me down man... :D

-Dave
 
Dave K said:
...Is it just me, or did Ben Around Too Long just totally wimp out here?...
You're right, Dave. I have too little time left to spend it on protracted battles. I would just rather hit and run and glance back to see if any bodies fell. If none did, well it doesn't matter because I'm already in the next county.
 
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