Let's see your Camillus knives!

Michael,
1930's for the Catskill Cutlery stamp: Catskill Knife Co

Eric
 
Tang stamp from Catskill Knife Co. I only have 3 of the Catskill knives, pretty elusive. Since I am in the heart of the Catskill Mountains I thought this a nice brand to start a little collection.

catskillknife1.jpg


catskillknife2.jpg
 
Dave,
Did you find those locally or were they spread across the country?

Eric
 
Eric, I found the first one at a local gun show and thought I was on to some unknown knife company. Only after I got the Blade's guide did I find out it was a Camillus brand in the 30's. The other 2 came off of ebay. I guess I will have a tough time snagging them off ebay for 5 bucks from now on.
 
DaveinNY said:
....I guess I will have a tough time snagging them off ebay for 5 bucks from now on.
Click to expand...

Maybe so. I know at least one collector who is trying to get one example of each Kastor/Camillus tang stamp. I never realized how many different ones they used, not even counting the SFOs.

Here is a camp/utility pattern. I'll go into the BSA lawsuit against unauthorized marking of "Scout" on knives some day after I've done some more research on it. This #99 has "Camillus" on the shield.



Michael
 
Here is another apparently Camillus made "scout". First time I've seen this tang stamp; HIGHCARBON over STEEL over USA. Hopefully you can read the etch, and the only other marking is the famous stamp SPIRAL PUNCH on the punch blade. It seems the SCOUT shield is designed to allude to, but not infringe on, the BSA trademark!? Codger??
CraftsmanScout.jpg

CraftsmanScoutEtch.jpg
 
waynorth,

Maybe you knew this, if so please excuse the ring...the STA-SHARP brand morphed into Craftsman right around 1940-41. That nice old guy looks like a transitional piece, making use of both the old and new names for Sears' line of knives.

Bill
 
Goins identifies the HIGH CARBON STEEL stamp as circa 1927-1940, and associated with the Sta-Sharp blade etch, a SFO branding made by Camillus for Sears Roebuck & Co., which is apparent by the etch on your knife. He also credits the Craftsman stamp (no mention of Craftsman etches) as beginning in 1941.

Yes, there was quite a hub-bub with everyone and their brother appropriating the trademarks owned by the Boy Scouts Of America for use on their own unauthorized knives. Camillus eventually did acquire a license from BSA and began producing authorized official knives. "SCOUT", as related in an official opinion to Dwight Divine & Sons in a letter dated 1914, would not be an infringement of the 1911 Baden Powell patent, 1911 West patent, or 1910 Bigney patent. Use of the badge designs, or the words "Boy Scout", or "Be Prepared" would be. Quite a bit of jousting went on over the years and evidently BSA prevailed. Several companies were sued in equity and forced to cease using "Scout". I have a copy of an early Camillus file in which all of the shields were cut out of the illustrations. And I have several examples of utility pattern knives (and jack and pen knives) with "Scout" shields. As I said, there is still a lot I need to research to present the full story. We know NYKC made the first official Boy Scout knives. And Major Divine acquired a license to do so also. I get the impression that Camillus still did not have license when Baer bought Divine out in January 1941, as he stated that...

Dwight Devine was known for making beautiful pen knives. New York Knife Company was better known for making 3-blade premium stock and cattle knives. In 1911, both received the franchise to make and sell the "Official" Boy Scout Knife, which was a very lucrative business because everyone, no matter what lines they handled, had to buy Boy Scout Knives. Of course, the great Remington got a franchise too, much to the disgust of the Devines. But, without the Official Boy Scout Knife, I could not have survived when I purchased Ulster, for the Government specification of a knife that was used on all Iife rafts was the "Official" Boy Scout Knife and Ulster still had the franchise when I bought the company.

1925


1927


1931


Did you catch the use of the term "OLD TIMERS" in this 1931 ad? :eek:
Michael
 
When I started working for Camillus I noticed many of the older catalogs had the shields removed on the camp knives. I asked Dean Wallace, the head engineer, what the reason was for this modification. Mr. Wallace explained that the Boy Scouts owned the name "SCOUT" and only allowed its use on official BSA knives. Codger memtioned the lawsuit where knife manufacturers were sued and barred from using the "SCOUT" name. I sent him copies of the records relating to the lawsuit. Perhaps he can post them here.
Camillus was making BSA knives until they went out of business.

Tom Williams
 
Thanks Tom! Folks, much of the information and images I am able to share with you here was provided to me by the generosity of Mr. Williams. In fact, I might say the best is yet to come! I've been typing my keyboard silly writing, but alas, still haven't replaced my deceased scanner. Look for some interesting Camillus posts here soon. Perhaps just the tip of the iceberg if Mr. Williams prevails in his quest to recover records for the Camillus Historical Society.

Dean Wallace, the head engineer, was the son of William D. Wallace, mechanical engineer hired by Alfred Kastor in 1917 prior to his leaving for the war in France. By 1944, Mr. Wallace had become Vice President of Camillus Cutlery Company. His son, William Dean Wallace, was engineer and Vice President of C.C.C. in 1951.

Michael
 
Here are a couple of examples of the "SCOUT" knives. These two are miniature A.W.Wadsworth & Sons marked imports.


These were pre-WWII. Next is a 1947 ad showing that by then Camillus had acquired official license to produce knives for BSA. I have seen somewhere that they got license in 1946.


Michael
 
waynorth said:
Here is another apparently Camillus made "scout"... It seems the SCOUT shield is designed to allude to, but not infringe on, the BSA trademark!?
Click to expand...

Waynorth....yes. But apparently it didn't work. This shield was one of those cut out of the Camillus catalog archives. The sheet I have shows fourteen patterns of "camp knives", all with shields cut. Four of them in the style of your knife's shield. The image of the signal flags remain. The rest were rectangular or Empire type shields. The can opener type gives a clue to the date.

Here is a Fairmount (Camillus) from pre-WWII. Note the shield.


There is a 1925 letter from James West of the Scouts telling of the USPTO infringement decision in BSA's favor against Winchester, and Winchester's agreement to not us "SCOUT" again. I've seen it quoted, but not found an actual copy yet. This was evidently an ongoing series of suits over the years against a plurality of knife makers.

Michael
 
Hey, there are a couple of clean-cut uniformed kids on my front porch demanding the shield from my knife!! What should I do??:eek:
 
You got knives, I know you got at least shooter around. Load up, give'em three warning shots. Past that aim to mame LOL LOL LOL
 
The Becker line of Camillus knives are nice. Designed by Ethan Becker (and at least one of them by Jerry Fisk, if memory serves), I still can't bring myself to buy one knowing that the designers did not receive the royalties owed by contract from this line of knives (or the Fisk OVB knives). Shameful business ethics on the part of Camillus' last owners, in my opinion.

Michael
 
Bill, I would consider it a side note, a nit-picky detail if we were talking hundreds of dollars. Or thousands. The figure approaches hundreds of thousands though. The most esteemed former designer and prolific patent holder, Mr. Phil Gibbs is in a not dissimilar position, having loaned a very large sum of his own money to the company to upgrade equipment, never to be repaid. Perhaps this is one reason (of many) why I am drawn to research and write about the likes of the Baers, the Kastors and other founders who as long as they were alive, treated their people with respect and honor. Old school thinking, sure. But it is what built the former giants of the American Cutlery industry.

Michael (stepping down from his soap box)
 
Although a German made knife, I count this as part of my Camillus Collection!
 

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