Lets talk GEC!

[Snipe 1]

Wow, too much drama. Not typical for the traditionals forum.

 

[esnyx]

Thanks Lemmy, I think that the term "traditional" can be tricky.

Maybe using classic cars was a poor example, as the modern renditions of these are so vastly different from the originals, that they cannot really be compared.

I like your use of the Vic scout example, and I agree. The term "barlow" is used to refer to a "traditional barlow" which, up until more recent times, has been the only kind. Now we have "modified" or "improved" barlows like the Beerlow or the #77 Northfield barlow. These do not meet all of the criteria of a traditional barlow, but do meet most, and are made using traditional blades by traditional means, so they fall under the category of "traditional" and of "barlow" but just not "traditional barlow", which, as I just stated, until recently were one in the same. So maybe we just need to make the distinction in what we call them.

 

[5K Qs]

…
I really do appreciate everybody's input on this subject. Jack, I am amazed that such a short post led to such a conversation, but I am very grateful that it did. I have learned more about how people view traditionals from this conversation than any other I've read here on the forums, and that's saying quite a bit. I've also gained a bit of respect for the history and tradition of knife patterns, and an insight into the minds of those that try to maintain these traditions. Thank you all for your respectful candor. I'd hate to think that people are keeping quiet in an attempt to be respectful, and because of that newer members such as myself aren't able to take advantage of their years of experience. Hopefully, this conversation will serve as an example that an honest conversation can be had respectfully, and that neither has to be compromised.

Well said, Cory. I also have found this recent exchange to be informative and interesting, and I've enjoyed reading the various opinions and insights that posters have shared on what "traditional" means to them. I don't agree with all of the opinions, of course, but I've enjoyed that all "factions" have been willing to respectfully (for the most part) express their opinions.

- GT

 

[Lemmy Caution]

Thanks Lemmy, I think that the term "traditional" can be tricky.

Maybe using classic cars was a poor example, as the modern renditions of these are so vastly different from the originals, that they cannot really be compared.

I like your use of the Vic scout example, and I agree. The term "barlow" is used to refer to a "traditional barlow" which, up until more recent times, has been the only kind. Now we have "modified" or "improved" barlows like the Beerlow or the #77 Northfield barlow. These do not meet all of the criteria of a traditional barlow, but do meet most, and are made using traditional blades by traditional means, so they fall under the category of "traditional" and of "barlow" but just not "traditional barlow", which, as I just stated, until recently were one in the same. So maybe we just need to make the distinction in what we call them.

hey maybe we've actually come to some sort of useful and inclusive insight through spirited but respectful discussion of a topic. Who'd a thunk it?!

 

[esnyx]

hey maybe we've actually come to some sort of useful and inclusive insight through spirited but respectful discussion of a topic. Who'd a thunk it?!

:thumbup:

 

[philllll]

Maybe using classic cars was a poor example, as the modern renditions of these are so vastly different from the originals, that they cannot really be compared.

To further muddy those waters, don't forget about "resto-mods" like Jay Leno is so fond of... something like a classic '70 Charger with a '14 drivetrain, suspension and brakes. I like to think of my beerlows as resto-mods, taking something classic, and making it better, while still respecting the classic "soul" of the knife!

 

[blackbrit]

As someone who has fallen in love with the Barlow pattern, and wants to learn about traditional knives, this discussion has been very enlightening. It has given me more directions to go in order to fill in my ignorance with a little bit more knowledge.

My first knife purchase was a beautiful #77 SFO by Mike Latham, thanks to a great member on the exchange. I love it perhaps even more knowing how it may or may not fit in as a traditional. Thank you, Jack Black, from my heart. Very helpful honest comments from you that I could not appreciate more.

This thread has also helped me think about the sheepsfoot and the wharncliffe blades with a bit more intelligence regarding the mechanics of the designs, something I sort of intuited, but am now clearer about.

This is a great forum! Thanks, all.

 

[Lemmy Caution]

hey maybe we've actually come to some sort of useful and inclusive insight through spirited but respectful discussion of a topic. Who'd a thunk it?!

:thumbup:

and they said it couldn't be done.

 

[Markesharp]

For me a "Traditional" Barlow has a metal bolster that covers 1/3 of the frame and has bone or wood handles. There were many blade configurations made throughout history. Essentially those two criteria make a traditional Barlow.

The 77 is a traditional barlow.

 

[rma100]

Thanks Lemmy, I think that the term "traditional" can be tricky.

Maybe using classic cars was a poor example, as the modern renditions of these are so vastly different from the originals, that they cannot really be compared.

I like your use of the Vic scout example, and I agree. The term "barlow" is used to refer to a "traditional barlow" which, up until more recent times, has been the only kind. Now we have "modified" or "improved" barlows like the Beerlow or the #77 Northfield barlow. These do not meet all of the criteria of a traditional barlow, but do meet most, and are made using traditional blades by traditional means, so they fall under the category of "traditional" and of "barlow" but just not "traditional barlow", which, as I just stated, until recently were one in the same. So maybe we just need to make the distinction in what we call them.

And as I don't believe GEC has ever made a Crownlifter or Radio Knife with the long bolsters typical of a Barlow pattern, the slang term "beerlow" is entirely incorrect by definition.

 

[2Dead]

Debating over what qualifies as a traditional knife is kind of like arguing about what a classic car is. Several car manufacturers have made modern renditions of classic cars, for example, the Challenger, Charger, Mustang, Camaro, etc. The new models of these cars, although they are being made by the original manufacturers, are by no means classical cars. They are modern renditions of the classics, and by no means fall under the definition of what a classic car is. The same goes for a traditional barlow. There are certain criteria that a knife needs to meet in order to meet the qualifications of a traditional pattern, and these criterion have been clearly and repeatedly defined. It isn't really up for debate, the knife either qualifies, or doesn't. Personal taste has NOTHING to do with it.

Lets take the "Beerlow" for example. This knife is not a barlow, it is a bastardization of the barlow. It may have shared aspects, such as a barlow style bolster, and a traditional barlow handle pattern, but, by definition, it is not a barlow. No personal opinion there, just pure fact.

Having said that, I (obviously) do not see anything wrong with making changes to traditional patterns to meet the demands of todays market. I do, however, have an issue with grouping them into the same category. Don't claim to drive a classic car when, in fact, you drive a '14 Challenger.

I am, of course, using the general "you" in this post. It is not directed at anyone in particular, but just my personal opinion on this general discussion.

At the risk of sounding like a 4 year old, Why? I understand where you're coming from, the traditional definition of a barlow does not include a wharncliffe blade. My question is (a rhetorical) 'Why?' Using your example of a '14 Challenger, it wouldn't be considered a classic car because it doesn't meet the definition of a classic car but also there is no way for it to have been built back then to be included in the definition. Wharncliffe blades have certainly been around a long time. If some one had put one on a barlow 100 years ago, would a wharncliffe barlow of been tradtional? They certainly could make wharncliffe knives back then so why wasn't one added to a barlow at some time in history? Did someone just not think of doing so or is there a practical reason, like there is with so many traditional patterns and blade selections? My feeling is it's more a matter of practicality than anything else.

As for the Beerlow, has anyone ever made one in the past? Honest question. Just like with the wharncliffe blade, they were around for a long enough time for someone to maybe have tried it. I remember seeing in one of the other barlow threads the inexpensive barlows that would sit in a jar on a store's counter for someone to pick up as an afterthought. I've also seen a lot of the smaller jack type knives with spear main and a cap lifter secondary. Has anyone ever combined the two, just using a barlow frame? Would it have changed the definition of a barlow if they had?

My posts on this subject aren't really aimed at anyone nor do I expect a definitive answer (unless we have cutlers in our midst that have been making barlows for 100+ years ) I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, or change definitions, just trying to understand why some things are what they are. And maybe ruminate on what things might have been if only...

Great post Evan. Do you think there should be a distinction between Traditional and Vintage? This line of thought could bring this back to a question about GEC's mission in general and hopefully steer us back on base. For instance Traditional is a set of criteria (mechanism, pattern, blade type, materials, production methods, etc) established over time and only subject to change over a broad view of history and agreed to by a relative consensus. The traditional of one time will not be the traditional of another time. Traditional is sort of more an ethos, relying on good faith and negotiation. Vintage, while still being somewhat relative, will at least mark an authentic point in time. A 1973 knife is what was used in 1973, no debate there. So not to beat a dead horse, but because its an example thats in all of our minds, we can clearly say the wharncliffe on the 77 or the Dan Burke or the BF knife or GEC's 25 Barlows is not your traditional Barlow, but we can say they are Barlows made by traditional means, there's nothing "modern" about them, but with a non-traditional choice of traditional blades. They aren't reproductions of a vintage knife. Neither are Charlie's Barlows. The Charlows are contemporary knives made according to Traditional criteria and in specific according the the time honored criteria of the Barlow. So they are traditional Barlows. Anyone good with Venn Diagrams? Vic Saks are not your traditional scout pattern, but they are still considered traditional knives. They are allowed for discussion here in the Traditional Subforum. So we could write them out like this: Vic Sak equals traditional knife, Vic Sak equals scout pattern, Vic Sak does not equal traditional Scout pattern

Does that work?

:thumbup: I think this is closer to my line of thinking and I'm ok if not everyone does.

Perhaps the name of the #77 Medium Barlow wasn't the most correct. Perhaps "Improved Barlow" would have been a better choice in keeping with the "tradition" of a knife being "improved" when a traditional blade was swapped out for a wharncliffe. Besides my 3 "improved barlows", I've also only had "improved muskrats". I've never used a trapper for its intended purpose but I have traditional and "improved" trappers and like both too.

Edit to add, I started writing my post after Bob's post, 1996. It looks like hands have been shook and beers have already been shared. It's all good

 

[Kirkwood]

Umm, so yeah... I'm pretty excited about this new run of Northfield 77 Barlows. I missed out on all the early TC Barlow runs, so a chance at a Sheepsfoot with saw cut bone is pretty great. Many thanks Mike Latham!

 

[Tenacious D]

Jack Black is a tool

 

[esnyx]

And as I don't believe GEC has ever made a Crownlifter or Radio Knife with the long bolsters typical of a Barlow pattern, the slang term "beerlow" is entirely incorrect by definition.

Hey, don't blame me for that one... I think Charlie made that one up. lol

It is totally made up and incorrect by definition. It doesn't meet the full criteria of a traditional barlow, but it is traditional in the sense that it uses traditional blades, and it does use a barlow bolster on the appropriate frame. Beerlow may not be the appropriate name for it, but I think we can all agree not to call it a traditional barlow.

Beerlow rolls off the tongue so nicely, though

Using the beerlow may have also been a bad example, as no production company has made one before, but I chose to use it as an example to avoid seemingly criticizing someone else's work.

 

[slide13]

Umm, so yeah... I'm pretty excited about this new run of Northfield 77 Barlows. I missed out on all the early TC Barlow runs, so a chance at a Sheepsfoot with saw cut bone is pretty great. Many thanks Mike Latham!

Me too! My first sheepsfoot main blade and my first saw cut bone!

 

[rma100]

Actually there have been Radio knives made historically. But, as I stated in my original post, GEC has never made a Crownlifter or Radio Knife WITH THE LONG BOLSTERS TYPICAL TO A BARLOW PATTERN. And I am not blaming anyone for anything. And it was not Charlie that coined the term "beerlow". I think it was used by a different poster in the "GEC Rendezvous" thread first.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...S-Who-s-Coming/page4?highlight=GEC+Rendezvous Post #77

 

[CAD]

Im looking forward to a #77 Wharncliffe and Sheepsfoot.:thumbup:


Chris D.

 

[knifeswapper]

On another note, I saw a picture on another site yesterday of a 73 with a blade etch that read "Production Pattern Finale" does this mean that they're done making 73s? Or what does that indicate?

Just for that year (which was a long time ago)...

 

[esnyx]

Actually there have been Radio knives made historically. But, as I stated in my original post, GEC has never made a Crownlifter or Radio Knife WITH THE LONG BOLSTERS TYPICAL TO A BARLOW PATTERN. And I am not blaming anyone for anything. And it was not Charlie that coined the term "beerlow". I think it was used by a different poster in the "GEC Rendezvous" thread first.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...S-Who-s-Coming/page4?highlight=GEC+Rendezvous Post #77

Bob, I was just messin' around, I know you weren't trying to blame anyone for anything. Having said that, I would LOVE to be blamed for the "beerlow", but, alas, I cannot take credit for the name.

Here is the genesis post that started the common use of the term "Beerlow", and you are correct, Charlie did not make that one up.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...od-Traditional-Barlow?p=13716675#post13716675

We are both in agreement about Radio knives being traditional. Not to be nit picky, but since we are on the topic of using the proper terminology, the beerscout(pictured in the GEC rendezvous thread) or any other knife that has a cap lifter on it but doesn't have a barlow bolster or frame, is not a beerlow. I hope this helps clear up my previous posts.

Aaanyways, I am excited to see what GEC has up their sleeve with this run of the #54 Big Jack.

 

[philllll]

Actually there have been Radio knives made historically. But, as I stated in my original post, GEC has never made a Crownlifter or Radio Knife WITH THE LONG BOLSTERS TYPICAL TO A BARLOW PATTERN. And I am not blaming anyone for anything. And it was not Charlie that coined the term "beerlow". I think it was used by a different poster in the "GEC Rendezvous" thread first.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...S-Who-s-Coming/page4?highlight=GEC+Rendezvous Post #77

Beerlow would not be a correct term for the GEC caplifter scouts, but those came after the idea for the "beerlow" barlows was brought up in Charlie's traditional barlow thread. IIRC Charlie said one of his friends had been encouraging him to put a caplifter on the TC barlows (which he has said he probably won't do.) Evan modified a few boy's knives and a couple TC barlows to have the caplifter with the long bolsters, which is what I was referring to. People started referring to the rendezvous caplifter scouts as beerlows, too, but that is a misnomer since they don't have the long bolsters.

Some "Beerlows":