Lets talk GEC!

Here is a bit of a thought exercise for you fellas - well... maybe not an exercise but just a different perspective.

Let's remove other knives from the equation (i.e. modern folders, fixed blades, etc.) and the 97 is the one knife available to you that is suitable for large and/or working tasks. Would you still be comfortable in its ability to meet your needs without fear of the blade closing on you? The reason behind a stiffer spring is that it keeps the blade from closing when you do not want it to. Sure, it makes it more difficult to open but it goes both ways - it makes it harder to close as well.

The example that I got was the Northfield with the saber grind and double pulls. Saber grinds on these knives result in a very sturdy blade and the double pulls elicit an assumption that the knife is going to have a stiff action - hence the extra leverage that the forward nail nick would provide. Instead, I had a knife where the action gave me no confidence in its safety as a working knife. It's a long, sturdy blade - one that could get caught up in all sorts of stuff that you might be working on and it would take almost nothing for it to fold on itself. In my mind, that is a significant design flaw.

I hold to my opinion that the weak action on the 97s was a very poor choice on GEC's part. Sure, they are beautiful knives and look great in any collection but, to echo Forrest's sentiments, it is not a knife that I would ever rely on for my heavier tasks - I have more suitable blades for such things and am happy that my choices are not limited to just the 97 pattern.

(Now, I am still inclined to try one of the Tidioutes - a long blade with a full flat grind has lots of merits)

Using a knife is akin to using chainsaw..... You cut with the underside of the bar all the time unless it becomes necessary to use the topside of the bar..... And when you do use the topside of the bar, you better know the dynamics of what can happen if you get a kickback......

I don't know of instruction manuals for traditional pocket knife use, but if you have one fold on your hand more than once in your life, you are probably better off using a locking or fixed blade.... Somethings shouldn't be in the hands of some people..... I'm sure you know those people same as I do.......

Remember the last oven you bought the Wife?...... In the manual it says "Do not stand on oven door"..... Maybe the knife should say "Don't push blade closed while gripping handle" ...
 
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Well I’m holding the #33 I’ve been waiting for. I want you guys to chime in here.
  1. Looks like the blades are right against their respective liners. You can see the oil pool up on the master blade where the tip rests against it.
  2. The pen blade has a nearly obscured nail nick, and you’ll notice that the tip is just short of proud. I will not be filing the kick on this one: looks like the pen blade will have to become a Spey and then a sheepsfoot.
I like the bone, the color, the jigging, the shield, and even the size. I understand not wanting collisions of the blades, but there’s a country mile in there. What do you guys think? Pics to illustrate.

BHjodjk.jpg

5qCSNTR.jpg

beaLnWT.jpg

ljcRR36.jpg

66Pa328.jpg


I think it’s got potential, I’m just wondering if the execution just isn’t there?

zTYOumU.jpg

I'm not sure what you are faulting?
 
I am aware that most folks did not like the lighter pulls, and won't argue against their preference. That said, in an actual hard use situation, I wouldn't use ANY slipjoint knife. Or even a folding knife for that matter, if I had a choice! So, I can't really speak to that particular hypothetical situation, wherein I only had one of my #97s available because frankly that wouldn't ever be the actual case. However, in the interest of passing a few moments in discussion, if that were the case, I would say that I'd most likely be fine. I am firmly in the camp of "use the right tool for the job", and if I needed something cut, well the #97 will do that job just fine. I wouldn't cut material that had a possibility of binding with a non-locking knife at all, that's just me.

As for very stiff springs, as is the case with virtually all of my #23s, I don't enjoy that either. Speaking of significant design flaws, I've mentioned before how I didn't enjoy the unsafe feeling of my #23LL model, due to the difficulty in closing the knife to the halfstop with the liner lock disengaged...with my thumb right in the path of travel depressing the lockbar. Not great. Beautiful knives, VERY sharp, but not confidence inspiring in the least for me.

For the record, my Alleghany #97 serves as my personal steak/eating knife when I'm at home, a role it excels at! :D

I don't disagree with any of your points really.

And yes, it is really difficult to imagine a scenario where one might be stuck with only one knife. If that were ever to be the case, something that simply cuts is going to be your absolute best friend.

The gist of my prior point is this: If a cutler makes a knife that is meant to be big, robust, and stout, then I would expect such a knife to be big, robust, and stout - a knife that is suitable for whatever chorin' that comes up. The 97 is big (for a slipjoint), robust (in materials and appearance), and stout (again in materials and appearance). The weak action ruins it for me - if it didn't have a half stop, I would think it was an Opinel without its collar. I guess, in short, the size and appearance of such a knife is wasted on this one where the action is just a hair away from needing to be push closed.

All that to say, I have no doubts that it makes for a mighty fine dinner knife.

To your comments about the 23LL - I, too, had some difficulties with using the thumb of my main hand to depress the lockbar - it felt very precarious. I mentioned this in the 23 thread and a technique was mentioned that I adopted pretty quickly. I use two hands now - use my left to depress the lockbar and use my right to ease the blade into the half stop position and then use my right thumb or leg to snap it closed the rest of the way. Works like a charm - 'tis a different beast than modern liner locks, for sure.
 
I'm not sure what you are faulting?
I’m just not a fan of the secondary design, but I could live with it if it were the only problem. I’m more concerned with blades scraping up against the liners. I’m not a “blades must be centered “ type, but I think a blade resting on the liner might be a flaw. I’m just looking for some impressions one way or the other. My wife worked hard to get me that #33.
 
My 33 is exactly the same. Mine almost looks like they are touching the liners but they really aren’t. It’s just a tight little knife. If I’m careful opening it I can open without any blade rub. The secondary is a little bit harder to get to the nail nick but meh...
 
Using a knife is akin to using chainsaw..... You cut with the underside of the bar all the time unless it becomes necessary to use the topside of the bar..... And when you do use the topside of the bar, you better know the dynamics of what can happen if you get a kickback......

I don't know of instruction manuals for traditional pocket knife use, but if I you have one fold on your hand more than once in your life, you are probably better off using a locking or fixed blade.... Somethings shouldn't be in the hands of some people..... I'm sure you know those people same as I do.......

Remember the last oven you bought the Wife?...... In the manual it says "Do not stand on oven door"..... Maybe the knife should say "Don't push blade closed while gripping handle" ...

I think I will respond to this by sharing some of my own firsthand experience. Before I do though, I will state that I have never had a knife fold on myself (well, maybe as a 4 year old when I got into my mom's purse and started playing with her pocket knife but that's beside the point).

For much of my life, I have worked in the trades, manual work of some sort or another (not anymore as I am a software engineer now). Having a knife at my side or in my pocket was second nature then, much the same as it is now - I just had far more opportunities to use my knives then, where today, my knives are far less busy unless I am out of doors, hunting or such.

There are countless instances of where I used my knife in rather tight areas (i.e. crawlspaces, attics, man holes, etc.). In many cases, I was sticking my hands in areas that required work done where I couldn't put eyes on at the same time - work had to be done by touch. You might think it foolish that I would risk using a knife in such circumstances but I had to "git 'er done" and I was able to conduct my work largely without any mishaps because, well... I am a skilled worker.

To be fair, I always used a locking knife or fixed blade - slipjoints were not really on my radar at the time. So to Forrest's point above, even now, I would still not use a slipjoint in the work that I performed in the past. But if it was the only knife available to me at the time, then my work would have been conducted far more cautiously and the risk of bloodletting would have been far greater. The 97 magnifies that risk considerably with its very weak action and though I feel I would still be able to "git 'er done", it comes with far more risk than other knives - even other slipjoints.

In the end, the 97 is not the working knife that it appears to be - in my very not-so-humble opinion :D.
 
GEC has indicated they have no plans to do a 33 whittler again. I'm assuming so many people complained about some minor blade rub that GEC got tired of hearing it. Thus NO MORE whittlers for anybody. Same with the 38 whittler. It will not be back either. Just my 2 cents.
 
I’m just not a fan of the secondary design, but I could live with it if it were the only problem. I’m more concerned with blades scraping up against the liners. I’m not a “blades must be centered “ type, but I think a blade resting on the liner might be a flaw. I’m just looking for some impressions one way or the other. My wife worked hard to get me that #33.

If it bothered me I'd spring the blades until you get it where you want it.... I think you are seeing contact versus scraping..... push the blade sideways and note how little effort it takes to move it...
 
Travis this isn't really directed at you, but just to add to the conversation. I seem to remember during the 97 release Gary Kifer mentioned that Bill used his large coke bottle collection to base the GEC run on and that the pull was historically correct. This might not mean much if you hate a light pull, but maybe Bill is interested in maintaining some historical authenticity in what he produces.
That sounds like Bill. Historical authenticity is most likely the reason the pulls were on the lighter side.
 
Travis this isn't really directed at you, but just to add to the conversation. I seem to remember during the 97 release Gary Kifer mentioned that Bill used his large coke bottle collection to base the GEC run on and that the pull was historically correct. This might not mean much if you hate a light pull, but maybe Bill is interested in maintaining some historical authenticity in what he produces.

That sounds like Bill. Historical authenticity is most likely the reason the pulls were on the lighter side.

I missed Matt's comment above.

If this is actually the case, I have nothing but respect for it. In my mind though, it still begs the question as to why originals were sprung so lightly. I got to handle some old Coke Bottle patterns at the Oregon Knife Show last year and many were in rather poor shape - very heavily used. Honestly though, I can't recall the pulls on them - I will have to pay closer attention in the future. I do know Charlie was hoping for them to be a bit stouter on his SFO at the time.
 
Well I’m holding the #33 I’ve been waiting for. I want you guys to chime in here.
  1. Looks like the blades are right against their respective liners. You can see the oil pool up on the master blade where the tip rests against it.
  2. The pen blade has a nearly obscured nail nick, and you’ll notice that the tip is just short of proud. I will not be filing the kick on this one: looks like the pen blade will have to become a Spey and then a sheepsfoot.
I like the bone, the color, the jigging, the shield, and even the size. I understand not wanting collisions of the blades, but there’s a country mile in there. What do you guys think? Pics to illustrate.

BHjodjk.jpg

5qCSNTR.jpg

beaLnWT.jpg

ljcRR36.jpg

66Pa328.jpg


I think it’s got potential, I’m just wondering if the execution just isn’t there?

zTYOumU.jpg
Mine looks exactly like yours. I have opened and closed the main blade probably 100 times so far. Here are my thoughts. I currently have no blade rub whatsoever so far. With my knives, I normally pay no regards to blade rub or blade rap. I close and open the blades hard. I love to hear the closing snap. I also push relatively hard on the blade nail nick as I start to open the knife. On most multiblade pocket knives when you push the blade upon opening, it pushes the opening blade into the resting blade resulting in blade rub. GEC has accounted for this by spacing the blades as far as it could away from each other. I think this is why mine doesn't have blade rub.
 
HEMI 4954781 said:
If it bothered me I'd spring the blades until you get it where you want it.... I think you are seeing contact versus scraping..... push the blade sideways and note how little effort it takes to move it...

HEMI 49 HEMI 49 , I get your concern. If a blade was rubbing on a liner of a $100 traditional a loved one spent a lot of time tracking down, it wouldn't feel great. I would say that in these opposite-end two pivot knives from GEC it's always been my experience that they are tighter to the liner. But I think that's a good thing. When you open either blade, pressure from your nail pushes the blade inward, so I'd definitely not want GEC to erre in the other direction.

At any rate, to help you with context of these 33s, I looked at mine. In the case of my two, my pen blades are close to the liners, but I do not believe they are touching. I can see a little daylight. In fact, if there's any problem, it would me that the clip is possibly touching the liner. I don't believe it is, but I also can't see day light. See the pictures below. The first two attempttto show any possible daylight between the pens and the liners on my two 33s. The last two pics attempt to show any space between the clip point blades and the liners.

I hope this helps you figure out how your feeling about yours.
r033hRR.jpg

VareEAc.jpg



jjJ9elL.jpg

UB5GRf6.jpg
[/QUOTE]
 
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Mine looks exactly like yours. I have opened and closed the main blade probably 100 times so far. Here are my thoughts. I currently have no blade rub whatsoever so far. With my knives, I normally pay no regards to blade rub or blade rap. I close and open the blades hard. I love to hear the closing snap. I also push relatively hard on the blade nail nick as I start to open the knife. On most multiblade pocket knives when you push the blade upon opening, it pushes the opening blade into the resting blade resulting in blade rub. GEC has accounted for this by spacing the blades as far as it could away from each other. I think this is why mine doesn't have blade rub.
Travman Travman brings up a great point, HEMI 49 HEMI 49 . If you open and close your pen blade 50 times today....the proof will be in the pudding. No rub....that might suggest you not only don't have a problem, but have and extremely well engineered/assembled knife! I think we'd all want them as close to that liner as possible without touching, so that when you open it, it won't rub against the clip point with that pressure from your nail. Conversely, if after 50 openings, you don't like what you see, then at least you know where you stand.
 
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On some older styles yes, Bill reviewed multiple old coke bottles from my brothers and my collection, took many measurements from multiple knives and reviewed many other old designs, and in our opinion he made a modern classic, personally I think he hit this out of the park, both in F&F and price, that's alot of steel and alot of processes to make that pattern. I love it!

I went and looked for this old post from Gary, I presented some bad information, he doesn't mention anything about the pull, just the physical replication of the pattern. I apologize for that misinformation and hopefully we can get a confirmation on the pull from someone who has handled a few of these old knives.
 
Yep, it’s a great blade combination on the #15 pattern.

Yes.... looks just like a trapper. I like the size of the 15's... just haven't decided which blade I'd prefer over the others. Wish they'd make it in a lambsfoot...
 
HEMI 49 HEMI 49 , I totally get your concern. If a blade was rubbing on a liner of a $100 traditional a loved one spent a lot of time tracking down, it wouldn't feel great. I would say that in these opposite-end two pivot knives from GEC it's always been my experience that they are tighter to the liner. But I think that's a good thing. When you open either blade, pressure from your nail pushes the blade inward, so I'd definitely not want GEC to erre in the other direction.

At any rate, to help you with context of these 33s, I looked at mine. In the case of my two, my pen blades are close to the liners, but I do not believe they are touching. I can see a little daylight. In fact, if there's any problem, it would me that the clip is possibly touching the liner. I don't believe it is, but I also can't see day light. See the pictures below. The first two attempttto show any possible daylight between the pens and the liners on my two 33s. The last two pics attempt to show any space between the clip point blades and the liners.

I hope this helps you figure out how your feeling about yours.
r033hRR.jpg

VareEAc.jpg



jjJ9elL.jpg

UB5GRf6.jpg
Mine looks exactly like yours. I have opened and closed the main blade probably 100 times so far. Here are my thoughts. I currently have no blade rub whatsoever so far. With my knives, I normally pay no regards to blade rub or blade rap. I close and open the blades hard. I love to hear the closing snap. I also push relatively hard on the blade nail nick as I start to open the knife. On most multiblade pocket knives when you push the blade upon opening, it pushes the opening blade into the resting blade resulting in blade rub. GEC has accounted for this by spacing the blades as far as it could away from each other. I think this is why mine doesn't have blade rub.

well thank you, I do feel better now- especially after seeing the other #33’s. I don’t care about blade-on blade rub. Blade rap would bother me a lot, and although the edge on the curved portion of the blade is damaged, I don’t think it’s rapping on the spring. My biggest concern with any knife is if it damages the edge or has blade play, since I think that affects the usefulness.
 
Lot of good discussion here about the 33 and the 97. I should be getting my 33 in tomorrow (if it will finally leave the midwest lol). Can you fit a thin piece of paper between the blade and the liner? A lot of times it may look close, but really it isn't rubbing. The nick on the pen blade looks like a good spot to me. If you have a little bit of the tip coming up over the liner, the master clip should help keep it from tugging on anything.

On the 97s, I don't own one, but seeing all this discussion and seeing they are still available, I might grab one just to see how weak it actually is. Is it 29 level weak? The 29 is borderline too weak for me personally although I love the pattern. I am not a historian when it comes to the 97, but I always thought the large coke bottle/folding hunter pattern was a "mountain man" design. After all, they named it after the Allegheny mountains. So in my mind, a more "frontier" folder should have a relatively strong action. But if Bill based it on the old ones that had weak actions, then I guess that is accurate. All I know is if I was stuck in the mountains and could only have one traditional folder, it'd probably be the 23. That thing snaps!

On an unrelated note about blade rub and rap, I let em down easy. Maybe it's the whittler comin out of me.
 
I think I will respond to this by sharing some of my own firsthand experience. Before I do though, I will state that I have never had a knife fold on myself (well, maybe as a 4 year old when I got into my mom's purse and started playing with her pocket knife but that's beside the point).

For much of my life, I have worked in the trades, manual work of some sort or another (not anymore as I am a software engineer now). Having a knife at my side or in my pocket was second nature then, much the same as it is now - I just had far more opportunities to use my knives then, where today, my knives are far less busy unless I am out of doors, hunting or such.

There are countless instances of where I used my knife in rather tight areas (i.e. crawlspaces, attics, man holes, etc.). In many cases, I was sticking my hands in areas that required work done where I couldn't put eyes on at the same time - work had to be done by touch. You might think it foolish that I would risk using a knife in such circumstances but I had to "git 'er done" and I was able to conduct my work largely without any mishaps because, well... I am a skilled worker.

To be fair, I always used a locking knife or fixed blade - slipjoints were not really on my radar at the time. So to Forrest's point above, even now, I would still not use a slipjoint in the work that I performed in the past. But if it was the only knife available to me at the time, then my work would have been conducted far more cautiously and the risk of bloodletting would have been far greater. The 97 magnifies that risk considerably with its very weak action and though I feel I would still be able to "git 'er done", it comes with far more risk than other knives - even other slipjoints.

In the end, the 97 is not the working knife that it appears to be - in my very not-so-humble opinion :D.

Your points are well made...... I was a manufacturing manager for a company that made copper products for heavy industry.... My specific area was commutators for transit, industrial, generators, etc.... We had everything from toolroom lathes, 300 ton presses, 14' vertical boring mills, processing ovens, mills, CNC lathes, etc, etc.... The company is about 45 miles north of GEC.....

We were big enough that OSHA was always interested in equipment and related safety measures. ......

We had very few "sizable" problems.... Mostly pebble in the shoe type of accidents due to training deficiencies or the operator was a dolt...... Somethings have to be done with specific tools..... Other times you might be able to improvise.....

The last deer I gutted was on a 3°F morning and all I had was a small Uncle Henry pocket knife.... I remembered reaching up into the neck to cut the windpipe so I could pull the guts out...... All the while hoping the knife didn't close on my hand...... I thought how stupid I was not to have a locking blade.... That feeling was never repeated as I subsequently made sure I had the right tool for the job.....
 
On the 97s, I don't own one, but seeing all this discussion and seeing they are still available, I might grab one just to see how weak it actually is. Is it 29 level weak? The 29 is borderline too weak for me personally although I love the pattern.

I remember my 97 being weaker than my 29 is. That said, my perception could be biased with regards to how easy the 97 is to open relative to its size.

I am going to scoop up another 97 as well - a Tidioute without that saber grind. This discussion warrants me giving it a second chance.
 
After I wipe the Titusville 90 weight off, I'll light up the blade well (blades closed) with a low-lumen flashlight. I don't think I've yet encountered one that didn't show some light between blade/liner or blade/blade on the single spring pen config GECs that I own. I should know on this one soon enough (fingers crossed)...
 
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