Lets talk GEC!

[Ryouchijtx]

From the 'What Makes a Good, Traditional Barlow?' thread
bottom knife in the photo

3rd cut stag almost wasn't made as I understand since Charlie's TC's are of the Tidioute line, not Northfield. The tidioute line at it's most "exotic" uses covers.
Keeping in mind that the Tidioute line is more of the workman's knife vs the fancier embellishments of the Northfield line.

Yes, the secondary market is inflated. Yes it's a collector's market/pricing for TC's but we all know that already, no need to rehash out the prices.

esnyx
Gotta love that 3rd cut stag!!

 

[mrknife]

It's always in Titusville, right at GEC, as far as I know. Is there another one?

o no, i didnt know where it was, im sure i can probably drive to titusville if i must. or take local transportation. my mistake, i didnt know it wasnt in philly.

 

[mrknife]

From the 'What Makes a Good, Traditional Barlow?' thread
bottom knife in the photo

3rd cut stag almost wasn't made as I understand since Charlie's TC's are of the Tidioute line, not Northfield. The tidioute line at it's most "exotic" uses covers.
Keeping in mind that the Tidioute line is more of the workman's knife vs the fancier embellishments of the Northfield line.

Yes, the secondary market is inflated. Yes it's a collector's market/pricing for TC's but we all know that already, no need to rehash out the prices.

holy cow! that single clip is right up my alley! well I just bought something from Charlie, Im not sure if he has any of those still lying around. And you are right, i was just surprised at the gouging

 

[kamagong]

As a dealer, I have a little different perspective.

I can't tell you the number of negative comments and returns we get with "proud" and "uneven" shield placement on stag. It can be the most beautiful piece of stag and IMO the shield is set properly, but if it has a corner that you can feel because the stag has some character, it is on its way back.

I MUCH prefer shields on my knives and shields on stag knives. I haven't had a chance to talk to Bill yet, but I will be requesting shields on our Northwoods, but I totally understand their frustration and decision.

I think that perhaps GEC has become a little too successful. They've raised the bar and now provide the best production slipjoints around. An unfortunate consequence is that it seems some people are not content with mere excellence, but expect and demand perfection instead.

A proud and uneven shield is not necessarily flawed when mounted on asymmetrical material like stag.

 

[mrknife]

I think that perhaps GEC has become a little too successful. They've raised the bar and now provide the best production slipjoints around. An unfortunate consequence is that it seems some people are not content with mere excellence, but expect and demand perfection instead.

A proud and uneven shield is not necessarily flawed when mounted on asymmetrical material like stag.

yup, just dug out the NIT 2014 blade forums knife, and although the stag slabs are uneven, the shield was pretty well placed in, not proud at all, if anything a little sunk in

 

[Cory Hess]

I think that perhaps GEC has become a little too successful. They've raised the bar and now provide the best production slipjoints around. An unfortunate consequence is that it seems some people are not content with mere excellence, but expect and demand perfection instead.

A proud and uneven shield is not necessarily flawed when mounted on asymmetrical material like stag.

It's possible that people just don't understand the compromises that come with natural materials. Before we had kids I was a landscaper. On one job the customer requested a lot of stone work and wanted it all to "look natural". This meant that everything was split faced instead of cut. I had to have several conversations with her explaining that a joint between two slabs of split faced stone can't be flush at every point. I don't think she was ever truly satisfied because it just wasn't possible for me to make everything plumb and level and still have the character that she desired. Sounds like the same thing may be happening here.

In a perfect world GEC would make some with shields and some without. That might not be feasible, and it would certainly add a headache to the dealers who would have to guess at how many knives of each flavor to order.

 

[Ryouchijtx]

I think that perhaps GEC has become a little too successful. They've raised the bar and now provide the best production slipjoints around. An unfortunate consequence is that it seems some people are not content with mere excellence, but expect and demand perfection instead.

A proud and uneven shield is not necessarily flawed when mounted on asymmetrical material like stag.

Agreed, if you're so OCD about perfection..go commission a custom build.
They've stepped the bar up but to expect 'flush half stops, perfectly inlaid shields, perfectly matched stag'...is unreasonable in my opinion.

 

[Woodrow F Call]

....how we got stag bone.

 

[okbohn]

It's possible that people just don't understand the compromises that come with natural materials. Before we had kids I was a landscaper. On one job the customer requested a lot of stone work and wanted it all to "look natural". This meant that everything was split faced instead of cut. I had to have several conversations with her explaining that a joint between two slabs of split faced stone can't be flush at every point. I don't think she was ever truly satisfied because it just wasn't possible for me to make everything plumb and level and still have the character that she desired. Sounds like the same thing may be happening here.

In a perfect world GEC would make some with shields and some without. That might not be feasible, and it would certainly add a headache to the dealers who would have to guess at how many knives of each flavor to order.

I think you nailed it.

 

[Will Power]

Only just reappeared from a short exile in the country.

Seems like most people don't mind the abolition of shields on Stag knives. I do. GEC set out to have pinned shields which marks them apart from most of the stick on brigade (who often use poor glue at that). Pinned shields show determination for craftsmanship and superior skill, whether this is more 'traditional' or not I don't know, but it certainly impresses in the area of quality. It entails proper inlet too. I have quite a number of their Stag knives, including last year's Forum Knife and ALL have impressively inlet shields, the stag in some cases is really deep and canyon like, yet the shields are in there without some gouge, sink-hole sides or being left proud or jutting out (which is something I consider to be unpleasant and funking it out, not daring to do it properly for fear of cracking the stag) Maybe others will tell you this is how all Traditional knives used to be, having proud shields, maybe but it's poor compared to doing the challenging job of inletting the shield .
properly.

Shields are of course an entirely subjective thing, some people dislike the un.X.ld shield, I don't as I see it as an iconic and boldly amusing GEC thing, shields are pattern sensitive - although I confess to loathing the bollox shield so loved by some custom makers - just me. Sometimes a Stag knife can look better without a shield if it has slanted bolsters but in general, I like to see them there. I regret this change, Northfield Stag knives for the most part do look better with a shield, it's part of the workmanship/finish aspect. So to me it comes across as some kind of cost-cutter, perhaps a lot of Stag has been damaged during shield inlay? Perhaps those workers most skilled in this task have left? If people expect that by being devoid of shields these Stag knives are going to be cheaper or more available, then I believe they are misguided. An 'optional extra' of having a shield at say 25 USD more per knife might satisfy more people than merely abandoning them. I don't like the sink-hole pins you can encounter on many of their offerings, it's ugly and disturbing but I suppose it keeps costs down by having one sized pins. The ones they send out with near flush or domed pins look so much better and looks are a vital aspect of the appeal of Traditional knives. I was disappointed by the news I heard, although it might be speculation, that the Squirrel & Acorn etch on stainless knives is phased out and the Cyclops Works tang stamp has been abandoned. Less is more then?

 

[Modoc ED]

I was disappointed by the news I heard, although it might be speculation, that the Squirrel & Acorn etch on stainless knives is phased out and the Cyclops Works tang stamp has been abandoned. Less is more then?

Nope, not speculation. Here's their latest on a stainless steel Mako.

My photo, my knife.

Mike Latham's photo used because it shows the new blade etch more clearly.

Bill Howard is going to keep messing around with his product and might find it to his detriment.

 

[knarfeng]

With as few stainless knives as GEC produces, I'm not certain that this is significant. I've only found one pattern in stainless that I liked enough to buy. A White Owl.

 

[supratentorial]

If they want to save some time, they could stop messing around with clip art on the website and abandon blade etches entirely except on special orders. None of that is important.

The old tang stamps were fine (better imo). I wonder why they changed them.

I wonder if Bill has a copy of LGIV. There's a lot that can be learned from history and there's no need to reinvent the wheel. He could pretty much go through LGIV and find the highest value old knives and reproduce those patterns the same way they had been made 100 years ago. He'd have a winner every time.

 

[kootenay joe]

Will, you nailed it here: "looks are a vital aspect of the appeal of Traditional knives".
GEC should return to pins being cut at the lengths needed and continue to put shields on a certain percentage of the Stag knives and charge extra extra for these so as to maintain their profit margin.
Making changes that detract from 'looks' is the wrong move when it comes to Traditional style knives.
Keep the quality up in all aspects and every run of knives will sell out.
kj

 

[supratentorial]

Every manufacturer makes mistake but their quality is pretty consistent. I suspect that what is unsold and still in inventory is not lower quality but less desirable because of the pattern or handle materials etc. For example, there are still #15 boys knives still in stock at some dealers but TC barlows are sold out. I think their most successful work is on SFOs because collectors are determining the details. To a large extent, many of those details were worked out 100 years ago.

I think they're trying to eliminate obstacles that slow down production. They've got to do what they've got to do to stay in business. If customers don't like it, then sales will reflect a need to change.

I don't have inside knowledge about their company but I think there are many ways that their business could be made more successful and efficient without affecting the quality of the knives.

 

[hamsco]

Keep the shield on the stag.
Keep the squirrels on the blades.
Keep the acorns on all the GEC's.

 

[JSCHENK]

I might be in the minority but, I personally like the stag without a shield, in my opinion stag is attractive enough without cluttering it up. Perhaps with the lack of shields on stag more detail could be placed on the pins being flush with the stag

 

[knifeswapper]

It is interesting to read assumptions and conceptions on why or how something is done. I guess somewhere an assumption has to be right, but for the most part - just seem like guesses that support ones overall preconceptions. My first response to the news of no shields on stag was that they could plan on a lot of future confusion between factory stag and after-market; as now there would be no real indicator as to whether the factory applied it or not. It doesn't save the factory a couple dollars to eliminate the shield, and to insinuate they are doing it as a cost cutting or "compromise" to craftsmanship - is silly from my point of view. A Tidioute acrylic will still have a shield but we jump right to the "cost cutting" argument? Pre-cut pins are now just because they are lazy?

My presumption is that after making a few hundred thousand GEC's, Bill has seen things that should be done differently for valid engineering or aesthetic reasons. But there will always be those that like the old and those that like the new.

Stag shields. Does it not make sense that this is just to eliminate sharp edges on deep set shields and leave a natural material with large variances - natural? It is more desirable with a shield? That is a personal preference. Does it eliminate sharp edges? Does it eliminate a shield from being deep set one on side and riding the surface on the other? Those are actualities. I would rather have a shield as long is it was not deep set enough to cause a sharp edge. But with the template and routing tools they have for shields, I know it does not take a lot of time or money to install.

Pre-cut pins. This has been done for at least 35 years by major makers. It doesn't take many attempts at installing slabs and spinning pins to figure out how easily the slabs are cracked by the pressure of the spinner. Thus, if it were the only reason, I would use pre-cut pins with dual depth plunge bits for a more secure slab fit and much less chance of cracking at the factory or when there are significant environment changes. I do not like the appearance of the hole on a thick stag knife, but I like thick stag and I dislike pin cracks; so I respect the decision.

Smooth shields. Before they made this change, we were seeing a lot of smooth slabbed knives with shields that were over buffed. If you don't get a good buff on a smooth bone knife, you are getting to get a lot of complaints; thus you have to buff it smooth and shiny. But, in getting that great finish, you are still buffing the shield with the slab. And there will surely be complaints about a letters buffed off a shield. So, although I am somewhat neutral on marked shields, this one seems like an easy decision to me.

I have asked Bill many questions about decisions that were made. He has yet to tell me that he was doing it because he was lazy or because it saved him money. But he has always provided answers that were logical on the whole. But my momma always did say I was gullible....

 

[blademan 13]

Personally, I do not really feel to be in a position to second guess the reasoning behind GEC's motives. Bill has far more years IN the knife business than I have buying the things. GEC is a very, very small knife company who has a hard time meeting the demand for some of their products now. And they are only becoming more popular. Heck, just a couple years ago you didn't even need to panic when a new pattern came out, you just picked one you liked when they hit. Now you had better be prepared or you just might be outside looking in. I have serious doubts as to whether a shield (or lack of), an etch or tang stamps will have much affect on future sales.

What I do see is the commonality of all these changes may be focused on one aspect of our hobby, collectability. After all, this is what being a small volume manufacturer is all about, isn't it? So no more shields on stag, acorn etches or Cyclops. I really hate to see them go, all of them. But I also welcome the new, as I am sure will be revealed in time. The first decade has passed and we are on the cusp of number two. I am grateful for my shielded stag and squirrel etched Cyclops blades and will look at them perhaps a little differently now. As I am certain future GEC collectors will as well.

In the meantime I will await what comes next. Perhaps we will also see a changing of the guard in regards to shields in general. Maybe the UN-X-LD, hotdog and cloud have run their final race as well? Who knows? As is often said, the only thing predictable about GEC is..........

 

[supratentorial]

It is interesting to read assumptions and conceptions on why or how something is done. I guess somewhere an assumption has to be right, but for the most part - just seem like guesses that support ones overall preconceptions. My first response to the news of no shields on stag was that they could plan on a lot of future confusion between factory stag and after-market; as now there would be no real indicator as to whether the factory applied it or not. It doesn't save the factory a couple dollars to eliminate the shield, and to insinuate they are doing it as a cost cutting or "compromise" to craftsmanship - is silly from my point of view. A Tidioute acrylic will still have a shield but we jump right to the "cost cutting" argument? Pre-cut pins are now just because they are lazy?

My presumption is that after making a few hundred thousand GEC's, Bill has seen things that should be done differently for valid engineering or aesthetic reasons. But there will always be those that like the old and those that like the new.

Stag shields. Does it not make sense that this is just to eliminate sharp edges on deep set shields and leave a natural material with large variances - natural? It is more desirable with a shield? That is a personal preference. Does it eliminate sharp edges? Does it eliminate a shield from being deep set one on side and riding the surface on the other? Those are actualities. I would rather have a shield as long is it was not deep set enough to cause a sharp edge. But with the template and routing tools they have for shields, I know it does not take a lot of time or money to install.

Pre-cut pins. This has been done for at least 35 years by major makers. It doesn't take many attempts at installing slabs and spinning pins to figure out how easily the slabs are cracked by the pressure of the spinner. Thus, if it were the only reason, I would use pre-cut pins with dual depth plunge bits for a more secure slab fit and much less chance of cracking at the factory or when there are significant environment changes. I do not like the appearance of the hole on a thick stag knife, but I like thick stag and I dislike pin cracks; so I respect the decision.

Smooth shields. Before they made this change, we were seeing a lot of smooth slabbed knives with shields that were over buffed. If you don't get a good buff on a smooth bone knife, you are getting to get a lot of complaints; thus you have to buff it smooth and shiny. But, in getting that great finish, you are still buffing the shield with the slab. And there will surely be complaints about a letters buffed off a shield. So, although I am somewhat neutral on marked shields, this one seems like an easy decision to me.

I have asked Bill many questions about decisions that were made. He has yet to tell me that he was doing it because he was lazy or because it saved him money. But he has always provided answers that were logical on the whole. But my momma always did say I was gullible....

There's no need to make assumptions about how the knives are made. You can watch a video of GEC (and Case and many others). And some of the folks on this forum have first hand experience making knives (or at least trying to make knives )

I don't recall anyone using the word "lazy" to describe Bill. That is an inaccurate assumption. There's a difference between a company making their manufacturing process more efficient and an individual being lazy. One of those things is good business. The other isn't. Bill wouldn't have accomplished so much if he was lazy.

There are tons of refhafted old knives (and complete fakes) with or without shields. As long as folks don't mark their work, there will always be confusion. Some folks don't take the time to learn but there are ways to identify reworked knives whether or not they have a shield.

Although the process of adding a shield is the same, acrylic and other uniform handle materials like wood and bone are much easier to work with. Seating a shield is more difficult to do WELL on highly figured stag covers without giving each knife additional individual attention.

The pins and text shields have been discussed previously.