Lets talk GEC!

[supratentorial]

Personally, I do not really feel to be in a position to second guess the reasoning behind GEC's motives. Bill has far more years IN the knife business than I have buying the things. GEC is a very, very small knife company who has a hard time meeting the demand for some of their products now. And they are only becoming more popular. Heck, just a couple years ago you didn't even need to panic when a new pattern came out, you just picked one you liked when they hit. Now you had better be prepared or you just might be outside looking in. I have serious doubts as to whether a shield (or lack of), an etch or tang stamps will have much affect on future sales.

What I do see is the commonality of all these changes may be focused on one aspect of our hobby, collectability. After all, this is what being a small volume manufacturer is all about, isn't it? So no more shields on stag, acorn etches or Cyclops. I really hate to see them go, all of them. But I also welcome the new, as I am sure will be revealed in time. The first decade has passed and we are on the cusp of number two. I am grateful for my shielded stag and squirrel etched Cyclops blades and will look at them perhaps a little differently now. As I am certain future GEC collectors will as well.

In the meantime I will await what comes next. Perhaps we will also see a changing of the guard in regards to shields in general. Maybe the UN-X-LD, hotdog and cloud have run their final race as well? Who knows? As is often said, the only thing predictable about GEC is..........

Personally, I'm not at all interested in the "collectability" of knives from GEC or new knives from other makers. But we all have different interests. I agree that knife buying and collecting has changing in many ways over the years.

 

[mrknife]

well how about a special bolster than? would that make it easier? that way they can make use of odd sized stag. might take a little more work though

 

[Will Power]

Personally, I'm not at all interested in the "collectability" of knives from GEC or new knives from other makers. But we all have different interests. I agree that knife buying and collecting has changing in many ways over the years.

My feelings entirely:thumbup: "collectability" is a mirage or delusion that's subject to whim and current trend. It can also be the DNA of a certain kind of uncritical fanboyism....Quality is a different matter, it stands the test of time.

Thanks, Will

 

[Will Power]

Let's have some pictures of what may soon be a vanished aspect of GEC's greatness...

Fantastic job of shield inlet

Ditto:thumbup:

Forum Knife 14 on arrival, part of the inlet aspect is choosing the slabs. The mark side has a natural valley on it that lends itself to this.

Some of the most ridged Stag I have. Whether you like the shield or not, the inlet work is a masterpiece,

Fine pin work on this too.

Most Kool in my view

I still think the knife looks better with a shield and the EZ-Open, but it aint easy...

Finally, two without. And of course not! Because the Barlow type long bolster doesn't lend itself to this. But, they have stamped bolsters: more difficult to do, more time consuming and more costly. Just look at the quality, and part of the TC and NF Barlow success is recreating old school quality via authentic stamped bolsters. Other companies engrave them, or leave them bare and put a silly little shield on the scales, cheap looking.

 

[Ryouchijtx]

My feelings entirely:thumbup: "collectability" is a mirage or delusion that's subject to whim and current trend. It can also be the DNA of a certain kind of uncritical fanboyism....Quality is a different matter, it stands the test of time.

Thanks, Will

Extremely well said Will and Jake

 

[knifeswapper]

There's no need to make assumptions about how the knives are made. You can watch a video of GEC (and Case and many others). And some of the folks on this forum have first hand experience making knives (or at least trying to make knives )

I don't recall anyone using the word "lazy" to describe Bill. That is an inaccurate assumption. There's a difference between a company making their manufacturing process more efficient and an individual being lazy. One of those things is good business. The other isn't. Bill wouldn't have accomplished so much if he was lazy.

There are tons of refhafted old knives (and complete fakes) with or without shields. As long as folks don't mark their work, there will always be confusion. Some folks don't take the time to learn but there are ways to identify reworked knives whether or not they have a shield.

Although the process of adding a shield is the same, acrylic and other uniform handle materials like wood and bone are much easier to work with. Seating a shield is more difficult to do WELL on highly figured stag covers without giving each knife additional individual attention.

The pins and text shields have been discussed previously.

Most of the folks on the forum that have experience re-assembling knives are not equipped with the same hardware as the factory; nor are they doing 75 knives a day. If they do/are, they are not tinkerers. And if they do not have the same equipment, how are they prepared to respond for those that do? I have tore down and re-assembled many knives, but I am not going to tell others why Bill has made a bad decision on his part.

Actually if you don't do a task because it would be more difficult for no reason other than the difficulty - that is lazy. And that was inferred in previous posts. I concur, Bill is not lazy (and I stand by the statement that he would not say he was ).

Although folks good with their hands can surely hack a knife well; it is much more difficult to tear a knife apart and keep the shield intact and then re-assemble with the shield routed accurately and pins dropped correctly. Very rarely has this been done in a way that even an amateur collector would be fooled. And if it was then the hacker would have been better served (financially) making their own knives than counterfeiting GEC's. Marking their work doesn't help unless it is marked in greater detail than most. For example a Case trapper with a "3254" blade and stag handles is fairly easy to spot; a GEC with a "7352115" not so much.

The router template eliminates most of the thinking and difficulty on shields. If some poor guy was sitting at a table with a dremel, it may pose greater complexities. But with a stencil like template and frame to hold the cutter, it cuts what is inside the stencil. Seating is dropping it in the pre-cut well and spreading the back side - not a job that takes nights at the vo-tech.

My point is that there is no sense in taking a factory decision and having a long thread trying to make that decision be based on something it is not.

And, more specific to the shield, the general theme of it being a cost-cutting measure seems a bit far fetched.

 

[Modoc ED]

Personally, I'm not at all interested in the "collectability" of knives from GEC or new knives from other makers. But we all have different interests. I agree that knife buying and collecting has changing in many ways over the years.

I agree with you Jake. I too don't collect GEC knives - I just use them and we all pretty much know how I use them and where I store them -- woodshed roof, tractor toolbox etc.. I don't have any that I would consider collectible. Further, I don't buy stag anymore as I think the cost of stag is artificially inflated. That doesn't men I wouldn't buy anymore stag but not very likely.

 

[knifeswapper]

Has there been any news that would explain why stag has gotten so high again? Not necessarily on a stag knife, just the slabs on the market.

 

[Modoc ED]

I don't know of anything specifically Mike but a few years back stag took a fair jump in price and I believe it was due to restrictions on the exportation of stag from various places and the importation into the U.S.. You of course know more about this than I do.

 

[supratentorial]

Most of the folks on the forum that have experience re-assembling knives are not equipped with the same hardware as the factory; nor are they doing 75 knives a day. If they do/are, they are not tinkerers. And if they do not have the same equipment, how are they prepared to respond for those that do? I have tore down and re-assembled many knives, but I am not going to tell others why Bill has made a bad decision on his part.

You make some assumptions here. But based on this viewpoint, you should also not comment on Bill's decisions at all unless you are assembling 75 knives a day in a factory (whether you agree or disagree with it). Also then there's no point in asking...

I hope you all had a great holiday!

GEC announced this morning that beginning in 2016, all stag knives will be sans shield regardless of classification. So whether natural or burnt, they will all look similar to the old "genuine" stag knives that had no shield.

Good or bad????? :thumbup: :thumbdn:

Actually if you don't do a task because it would be more difficult for no reason other than the difficulty - that is lazy.

And that was inferred in previous posts. I concur, Bill is not lazy (and I stand by the statement that he would not say he was ).

I think we can both agree that Bill isn't "lazy".

ef·fi·cient
əˈfiSHənt/
adjective
(especially of a system or machine) achieving maximum productivity with minimum wasted effort or expense.
"fluorescent lamps are efficient at converting electricity into light"
(of a person) working in a well-organized and competent way.
"an efficient administrator"
synonyms: organized, methodical, systematic, logical, orderly, businesslike, streamlined, productive, effective, cost-effective, labor-saving More
preventing the wasteful use of a particular resource.

Although folks good with their hands can surely hack a knife well; it is much more difficult to tear a knife apart and keep the shield intact and then re-assemble with the shield routed accurately and pins dropped correctly. Very rarely has this been done in a way that even an amateur collector would be fooled. And if it was then the hacker would have been better served (financially) making their own knives than counterfeiting GEC's. Marking their work doesn't help unless it is marked in greater detail than most. For example a Case trapper with a "3254" blade and stag handles is fairly easy to spot; a GEC with a "7352115" not so much.

Have you seen eBay?! Have you seen what is fooling collectors?!

The router template eliminates most of the thinking and difficulty on shields. If some poor guy was sitting at a table with a dremel, it may pose greater complexities. But with a stencil like template and frame to hold the cutter, it cuts what is inside the stencil. Seating is dropping it in the pre-cut well and spreading the back side - not a job that takes nights at the vo-tech. 15 seconds to route, 15 seconds to drop the shield and spread the pins; stag, acrylic, bone - no significant difference. Guessing the shield costs them $0.75 - how much do they knock off a stag knife for eliminating that job.

My point is that there is no sense in taking a factory decision and having a long thread trying to make that decision be based on something it is not.

And, more specific to the shield, the general theme of it being a cost-cutting measure seems a bit far fetched.

I think the person doing the work and getting paid for his time would have a different opinion. ...and probably the custom maker who carefully chooses from a pile of premium stag the piece that will work best on the knife.

 

[Cory Hess]

Cutting corners has nothing to do with Bill Howard being lazy. It has to do with him making decisions to maximize profits. Take the example of pins that were cracking the cover slabs. There are options to overcome this obstacle that leave the pins domed, some options that leave the pins flush, and some options that leave them sunken. Most would agree that domed or flush would be the two best options. Bill went with sunken. It was the option that made assembly easiest and most predictable. I'm assuming that this wasn't done because the people pinning everything together were lazy, but because it is the most profitable option. It definitely wasn't done because it was the only option, because we see other makers putting out knives with flush and domed pins.

The same logic could/should apply to including shields on stag covered knives. According to Derrick, there have been complaints about the shields not being flush on stag covers. They had the option of choosing different stag, changing how they lay the shields in the stag, or leaving the shields off altogether. The cost involved in this isn't tied to the process of actually attaching the shields to the knives, but in handling the complaints and unsatisfied customers. I'm assuming that Bill made the decision that would be most profitable for his company. Again, other options exist because other companies put out knives with shields on stag.

None of this is any indication of any belief about Bill's character at all. For all we know these decisions had to be made to keep the doors open at GEC. Whether we like the shields on stag or not, nobody is in favor of GEC going out of business over a detail like this. I think it's safe to say that nobody would call Bill lazy for trying to keep his company financially solvent.

What we're talking about are the compromises that GEC is making with their knives moving forward. They've already compromised in the sunken pins. I have a hard time believing that Bill Howard or anybody at GEC prefers the sunken pins to flush ones. But, they made the decision that they had to in order to be able to keep making knives. Obviously Bill prefers to have shields on his stag knives, otherwise he never would have put them on to begin with. He's again having to compromise. It sucks. Ideally, he'd be able to make the best knives he can possibly make and money would just come raining from the sky. They still make a darn good knife, and we're all happy to own them. To say that we can't discuss the cost saving corner cutting that they have to do in order to be profitable is just silly. Is it possible to be honest and critical while still being a fan of the product? If not, what's the point of an enthusiasts forum at all?

 

[Modoc ED]

Too much deep thinking - errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr typing here. Either people will buy GEC with the past/upcoming changes or not. It's as simple as that.

 

[rockgolfer]

Is it possible to be honest and critical while still being a fan of the product? If not, what's the point of an enthusiasts forum at all?

:thumbup: well said

 

[supratentorial]

:thumbup: well said

^^ :thumbup:

 

[kamagong]

Vote with your dollars. I myself probably won't be buying any more stag covered knives from GEC. I don't like the UN-X-LD shield, but I still like it better than no shields at all. Knives without shields don't do anything for me, that's why I never picked up any of the #15 Boys' knives despite the fact that everything else looked good.

Of course I'm just one person. The market may decide that it likes GEC's stag knives better sans shields. Or it may not.

 

[B.F.U]

I only care about shields if they are special. The arrow on the 2014 forum knife (wish I hadn't sold), the .22lr on my Bradford single shot, the corset on the French Kate. Otherwise, I don't usually think they add to the look or use of the knife, and sometimes detract. I don't mind the hotdog, because it could be engraved.

I've been looking at Stag knives after all this and I definitely prefer without the shield.

 

[rma100]

It is painfully obvious here that most of you don't know Bill Howard or have any idea how he manages his business.

 

[B.F.U]

It is painfully obvious here that most of you don't know Bill Howard or have any idea how he manages his business.

I agree. When you speak with him you know he isn't running GEC purely for profit, but has a real passion for the knives and the people making them.

Unfortunately, it will always be that way because Titusville isn't much of a travel hub. Haha

 

[supratentorial]

It is painfully obvious here that most of you don't know Bill Howard or have any idea how he manages his business.

Rather than commenting on other folks on the forum, please share with us your well referenced view point on the subject. Please don't exclude any facts or your references for each point. If you are going to make comments on the manufacturing process, please include a total of how many knives you make per day in a factory setting (the minimum is 75).

 

[B.F.U]

Rather than commenting on other folks on the forum, please share with us your well referenced view point on the subject. Please don't exclude any facts or your references for each point. If you are going to make comments on the manufacturing process, please include a total of how many knives you make per day in a factory setting (the minimum is 75).

How many do you make? You're being confrontational for no reason, two wrongs don't make a right.