Liner Lock Strength

[gine]

How likely is it, that a person can put out enough stress on the blade, liner lock, stop pin, handles, in a defensive situation with an aggressors body to cause the lock to fail, resulting in a catastrophic situation.

The meat of your index finger when you sqeeze the knife where the liner lock cut out is the most likely thing that would cause a liner lock to close. It's been talked about on the spyderco forums,and is why lots of people and instuctors don't advise you to use a liner lock in a deffensive role.I can make
an emerson super cqc-7 and a spyderco military close in that way.

 

[zyhano]

I have never thought of using a folder for SD. I have worked in ER's most of my life and seen the damage a failed lock can do and never want to be on the recieving end of that situation. If you have the confidence to take your folder and stab it with all your might into a tree multiple times then you have answered your own question. If you think that is a crazy suggestion then you also have your answer.

I actually did that with a horseman. The lock held and did not fail, even though it had travelled to the other scale.
I feel that the lock took a lot of punishment, I'm not a weak guy..
the thread is here: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=703945
and the knife can be seen in my youtube takedown review (see my sig)

If the wood had been a baddie, we would have multiple pieces of the baddie right now

 

[dragonram7]

The human body has interstitial spaces (compartments). Everything is wrapped in it's own bag ( facia). Don't kid yourselves, knives are very effective tools and weapons. The addage; "don't to a knife to a gun fight". Knives are faster. The damage is horrific. Serratted blades, the damage is hard to fix.
With my dealings with the human body, I haven't found one as hard as a tree. There is usually meat covering bone (still-not like a tree). If the lock fails after I stab into the meat and hit the bone, I have the body between me and the blade.
I'll agree fixed blades rule. Not all of us can pull off a fixed blade for edc. I can't run to save my life, titanium knee. If the fight comes to me, Im cutting my way out.
Carry Quality-somthing you have faith in it's performance.

 

[CQC86]

Does anyone know why EKI uses mainly liner locks? Do they feel that it's superior to other locks, or is it because it's the most simple design?

 

[Lycosa]

EKI LL's still sell very well for them. I had a FL and I like the LL better. For me, I don't need a frame lock.

 

[Toucan Oasis]

Where's that thread with Bernie's Dundee rig

 

[Seanski]

One of my favorite locks on a knife is the liner. I never abuse my knives or put them
in a situation where the lock should fail. The reason I like them so much is they are so
easy to close.
I've only really had one that wasn't up to snuff and I took the knife back and the
replacement liner-lock was just fine.

 

[STR]

Many like the liner lock for that reason but just as many hate them for sticking and binding terribly. I have had quite a few mailed to me that had sticky locks people wanted smoothed out. Problem is I say leave them to break in on their own. I mean if the lock is that hard to close when you want to close it it seems to me its going to be that much less likely to snap shut on your fingers in the least opportune moment so the old adage to, 'leave well enough alone' seems to apply.

STR

 

[STR]

The meat of your index finger when you sqeeze the knife where the liner lock cut out is the most likely thing that would cause a liner lock to close. It's been talked about on the spyderco forums,and is why lots of people and instuctors don't advise you to use a liner lock in a deffensive role.I can make
an emerson super cqc-7 and a spyderco military close in that way.

I don't know here. I have seen that this is the case on some knives yes so I agree to a point. On most of the knives from Ernie that I've owned or seen though he is pretty much as conscious as anyone regarding the liability to the user of the lock accidentally disengaging as you are describing. If you look at his designs he does not cut a big thumb ramp access to release the lock as many others do in the industry. Most of his non lock sides are nearly as high as the lock side and his locks are not raised up above the scales as they are in Lone Wolf and Gerber liner locks. My Horseman which is the only Emerson I own right now would be very hard to close as you describe. In fact I've been trying to do that all morning and just can't see that happening in any grips in use really. It seems to me in a normal grip that what you describe, at least with the Horseman would be a very unnatural movement that you purposefully have to set out to do pulling your finger across the width of the body. I can make the lock click but upon further inquiry the click I'm hearing is from pushing the lock up toward the stop pin vertically and not a lateral movement.

In my experience when I've seen or read of a EKI liner lock defeating it was from someone abusing the knife at the time, or in the past, or a faulty new knife that had a lock barely engaging the blade and not even broken in yet which allowed it to defeat easy. In most of them once the lock does break in some and wear a little it moves in and secures the blade pretty good. I'm not saying I still would ever trust a liner lock 100%. I don't trust any folding knife lock 100% but liner locks in particular I'm very wary of based on my own experiences.

STR

 

[jbravo]

The only knife mechanism sure not to fail in any situation is a fixed blade, other maker's claims notwithstanding. However, in 19 years of buying Emerson folders and following their use in various media, I have never heard of one failing in use as self defense. Ever. Can it happen? - of course. Has it? - not yet.

As posted above, the key is not in the general design, but in how the particular maker executes it. Ernie has shown himself to be extremely good at getting the geometry of these locks right time after time. More than his knife designs, I believe it is his single greatest achievement as a maker.

 

[gomipile]

The meat of your index finger when you sqeeze the knife where the liner lock cut out is the most likely thing that would cause a liner lock to close. It's been talked about on the spyderco forums,and is why lots of people and instuctors don't advise you to use a liner lock in a deffensive role.I can make
an emerson super cqc-7 and a spyderco military close in that way.

This is why I like systems like the LAWKS that CRKT uses sometimes. I also like bolt locks, Spyderco lockbacks with Boye dent, and Tri-Ad locks for the same reason.

 

[midnight flyer]

Many like the liner lock for that reason but just as many hate them for sticking and binding terribly. I have had quite a few mailed to me that had sticky locks people wanted smoothed out. Problem is I say leave them to break in on their own. I mean if the lock is that hard to close when you want to close it it seems to me its going to be that much less likely to snap shut on your fingers in the least opportune moment so the old adage to, 'leave well enough alone' seems to apply.

STR

That has certainly been my experience. My Kershaws just need a few months of work and they turned are fine. That goes for frame locks as well in my case. Just use the heck out of them and they will work out the stiffness.

Robert

 

[STR]

The only knife mechanism sure not to fail in any situation is a fixed blade, other maker's claims notwithstanding. However, in 19 years of buying Emerson folders and following their use in various media, I have never heard of one failing in use as self defense. Ever. Can it happen? - of course. Has it? - not yet.

As posted above, the key is not in the general design, but in how the particular maker executes it. Ernie has shown himself to be extremely good at getting the geometry of these locks right time after time. More than his knife designs, I believe it is his single greatest achievement as a maker.

I understand wanting to defend a knife you like, or a company you like and/or a maker. But honestly no one can say with assurance that it has never happened that one of Ernie's locks failed in a defensive situation. There are far too many knives sold for you or anyone else to know that information. We may not know about it. Only a small portion of the buying public posts on forums. More accurately you are not aware of any that have failed in this situation. I am aware of one though posted on a couple forums out there and it was mentioned here as well later by the same guy. This was when an Emerson was used to stab an alligator in the head that was trying to get in a boat with two fisherman. If the story is real, the owner of the knife said he whipped out his Emerson and hard stabbed into the top of the head of the gator. The lock defeated, he cut himself in the hand (he showed a pic at the time of his hand) and the gator took off with his knife. So he lost the knife, the lock defeated and the fishing trip was ruined as he had to rush to the ER for sutures.. Yes the knife probably saved them from some other injury maybe even death but the lock defeated if we are to believe the story.

By the way, I believe Ernie's single greatest achievement as a maker is his record sales and the way he sets the house on fire at shows with his drawing. If there is one thing Ernest R. Emerson is better at than making knives, designing knives, self defense, guitar making or anything else its marketing and sales. That is his true expertise IMO but then again I'm a life time, (now retired) career salesman and I appreciate a truly talented and great salesman. Good salesmanship is an art and Ernie has it down.

STR

 

[CQC86]

The main reason I have made this thread is because I recently sent off a CQC8 to emerson to get the liner lock fixed. There was up and down blade play and it was making a clicking sound like in a youtube video of a mini horseman. I went ahead and bought the super CQC8 and after a week or so the same problem arose. It is getting worse and I will send it back as well. 2 knives in a row? Also, I called emerson today to see if they had shipped my knife back to me and they said they did. Well I found out that they sent it to the wrong address. I will check my records to see if I had typed it in wrong I'll post more info on this in a little while.

 

[Lycosa]

E Z big fella. EKI will take care of you.

 

[CQC86]

I just hope they "wave," (no pun intended ) the 14 dollar shipping charge. The knives aren't cheap and another 28 bucks all together just to have them work right is border line depressing.

 

[Jason B.]

I guess I'll be the odd one out here. I have two EKI's that collect dust because I became fed up with what I consider to be a poor LL. Though I have NEVER had anything close to a failure while in use the fact that the locks last a average of 6-8 months before wearing out became very depressing. When the day comes that I decide to send them back that will make it the third lock installed on each knife.

The lock being sticky is also a big issue for me, having your knife lock open is one thing but when you can't close it that can be a problem. It was very often that I needed to get out the cutting board and apply pressure in the thumb ramp area to release the lock.

I know I'm not alone here as it has been the same with every EKI LL I have ever seen. I adressed this issue before and it was "swept under the rug" the same exact thing happening 4 times total with two knives leades me to believe it more than just a "fluke"

 

[STR]

I guess I'll be the odd one out here. I have two EKI's that collect dust because I became fed up with what I consider to be a poor LL. Though I have NEVER had anything close to a failure while in use the fact that the locks last a average of 6-8 months before wearing out became very depressing. When the day comes that I decide to send them back that will make it the third lock installed on each knife.

The lock being sticky is also a big issue for me, having your knife lock open is one thing but when you can't close it that can be a problem. It was very often that I needed to get out the cutting board and apply pressure in the thumb ramp area to release the lock.

I know I'm not alone here as it has been the same with every EKI LL I have ever seen. I adressed this issue before and it was "swept under the rug" the same exact thing happening 4 times total with two knives leades me to believe it more than just a "fluke"

The worst binding lock I've ever owned was a CQC12 bought new. I literally had to take it apart twice to get the lock released before it broke in finally. It was also one I saw the lock go from an early lock up to all the way across the blade to the non lock side in no time flat but it never developed any blade play. I had a early 98 Specwar from years ago that I watched do that also and sent it in to have EKI fix it back then. They peened the lock face and sent it back. It stuck and binded terribly forever after that also. It would flat wear out your thumb to try to release it after that. I sold it for that reason. I later bought it back after that guy broke it in better but it still stuck now and then. It was never the same after that to be honest. I gave it away a few years later. These are the extreme end of sticking though.

Most are not that bad and I don't really mind a little stick. In fact I prefer that over none at all but when they bind terribly it really sucks!

STR

 

[CQC86]

Well, I got my cqc8 back today and so far so good. I have not played with it much but I will soon. I recieved a note that said that Mr. Emerson had inspected the knife himself and that it met his standards. In the note, it also stated that the lube I was using was causing the lock to be unstable and that I should be using marine grease or somthing like it. I will post an update after I clean my super cqc8 and play with the cqc8.

 

[Lycosa]

Locks wearing out is a result of too much "playing" with the knife, imo. I soft-set my lock into place, after break-in, and only let 'er snap in when I Really need to use my knife. I never had a LL wear out on me. Maybe I'm nuts!