Liner locks fail???

I am not sure you can call lock a safety feature. It's more than that. A LAWKS latch is a safety device but the primary lock is not. Without the lock the liner or Axis locking folders become unusable. The lock is what holds the blade in the handle. A similar example is the brake in a car, I don’t think it’s a safety feature because without it the vehicle becomes practically not drivable. The ABS, seat belts and air bags, on the other hand are safety features.
 
That is a good point. The newer folders without a backspring are certainly about worthless without the lock. But it still is a safety to keep the knife from closing even when integral in the design isn't it? I would say so.
 
Bastid said:
I think that sums things up very well. For me, it is best to think of a lock on a knife as a safety on a firearm ...
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Different thing altogether. Many knives have locks to enable them to be used for tasks which they could not be used without the lock. The lock is therefore actually intended by design to take the stress and enhance the scope of work of the knives beyond what you could do with a slipjoint.

The heavy duty Olfa knives for example have locking blades, unlike the light ones, because while the light ones only cut paper which puts little force on the blade, the heavy ones cut tiles, shingles, etc. and need the lock to stay stable because without it the cuts could simply not be made.

Now consider the wealth of tactical folders with up to 1/4" sabre ground blades, it simply can not be argued that the use of said folders be restricted to tasks which don't heavily load the locks, because under such conditions the cross section of the blade makes no sense.

Try carrying a small fixed blade ...
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If you can carry a fixed blade then there is no real to carry a folder (outside of the multi-blades), as they are superior to folders in many areas besides not having failure through lock release.

Laceration said:
I'm not sure why saying all locks can fail pisses you off so badly.
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It doesn't. It is simply an illogical arguement as noted because it implies that the strength and security is irrelevant. By an extension of similar logic you can excuse any aspect of performance no matter how poor.

-Cliff
 
The LAWK's system isn't used extensively, and is on the lower end of folders so not a lot of people are using it. The one I had was useful for torques but not for impacts because it was actually made out of very soft steel and it readily bent. You could close the blade into the handle with the LAWKS fully engaged. It would just smear out of the way. I returned it months ago to CRK&T to no effect.

-Cliff
 
I think the LAWKS system would be more widespread if people could just do it like they did the liner lock in the first place where permission or a royalty arrangement was not necessary. Had the liner lock been patented like it should have been (Mr. Walker simply got some bad advice) maybe threads like this would not even need to be started. Perhaps the quality would have been better on the ones produced that way. Then again having to gain permission to use the intellectual property of Mr. Lake and Walker for the LAWKS hasn't necessarily made it better though has it?

The CRKT Serengeti folder that I had had a great frame lock on it but I agree with Cliff on the LAWKs safety system, at least on that particular folder. It was easily bent and very thin for what it was supposed to do. You would think that if someone went to the trouble to draw up an agreement to use a LAWKS on the knives they make that they would at least do it right when they make it. I could tell from using it that it would not really hold the lock back like it could if it had just been a thicker piece of hard steel instead of the soft easily bent steel like it was.
 
I wonder if there is a way to purchase a thicker piece of hard steel for the LAWKS system. Or have one made. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Thanks for the feedback guys. I just got a CRKT M21-04. I love the design but will watch the lock.

Otherwise I am a fixed knife person. SRK!!!
 
Cliff Stamp said:
It doesn't. It is simply an illogical arguement as noted because it implies that the strength and security is irrelevant. By an extension of similar logic you can excuse any aspect of performance no matter how poor.

-Cliff
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I feel the logic is sound. In no way did I imply strength and security are irrelevant. Locks come in different configurations to withstand different types of force. Liner locks work fine for lighter use, much like the padlock works fine for a bike. If you're going to use a knife extremely hard, you would probably be better off with a sturdier lock. The question posed was "Liner Locks Fail???" and my answer is yes. Any lock can fail and all can be defeated.
 
As far as the LAWKS on CRKTs are concerned. I think the problem some people are having with them flattening is that on alot of the CRKTs I've seen the LAWKS when engaged looks like this:

--------\

It can be fixed by moving the extension tab so it's horizontal or by making it look more like this:

--------/

That way, if it does get crushed it will collapse on it's self making the thickness double and it will not allow the liner to slide off the tang rather than just flatten out and become worthless. I agree that it should be made out of a harder steel though. The ones on the M16 line seem fine as I can attest to, but I've heard complaints on this forum about the LAWKS on other models. The Point Guard, as Cliff knows, seems extremely prone to this.
 
Laceration: I'm going to give that a try. I have a CRKT M21-04. One of the big boys. I absolutely love the design. Until I can figure out how to improve the "thin piece of steel" issue (if at all possible) I will do that modification. Thanks.;)
 
I like linerlocks by design, and have never had one fail on me (Benchmade, Emerson, Spyderco, Kershaw, CRKT, etc. have all proved equally reliable in my experience).

I don't know why people think they're shitty.
 
Cliff Stamp said:
Often times liners/integrals are not seated properly initially and can fail really light spine whacks and even fail to lock up when opened. A few inertial openings and/or a few spine whacks often seat the lock and it can then become stable. So if the lock does fail, try to break it in a little and test it again, sometimes this fixes the problem.
-Cliff
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Thanks, Cliff. However, this problem became more--not less--pronounced over time.

Chris
 
Yes that can happen as well, it can also make perfectly secure locks start to disengage. I have seen it go to the point where a lock which could once take a heavy spine whack easily (dent a piece of spruce a mm) would not unlocky trivially off a pop of the open palm. No significant impacts during the course of the carry of the knife, it was spine whacked initially a few times and then just used to cut things for months and gradually went completely insecure. You can see a similar effect on lock backs, I watched a Spyderco Endura develop a bit of slop after a year of use, but it was still going strong a year later and was never actually insequre.

-Cliff
 
I just got done reading this entire thread. I decided to go get my only liner lock knife out (the Benchmade 910) and white knuckle test it.

If I hold it like I normally would (like I'm holding a hammer) and squeeze it real tight like I might if I were ever in a knife fight (God forbid) the liner moves and gives vertical blade play. I did it about 10 different times. Each time closing the knife putting it back in my pocket and starting over. Each time I pulled the knife from my pocket, opened it, and then gripped it really tight I could feel my index finger moving the liner lock. If I then put stress in the direction of closing the blade and then removed my hand (so it would hold the liner in it's current position) I would see that it was barely engaged. It was like engaged with just half of the liner.

This quick test scared the crap out of me. I'm not sure if I should be worried or not but it makes me want to not ever use the 910 now.

I realize this thread was old but only a couple months so I brought it back.
 
If you grip it tight at that causes blade play, you're seriously compromising the lockup. Use it like that, and it's not unlikely to fail. One of a zillion problems liner locks are susceptible to, and the reason so many of us have sworn off them. I wouldn't use that knife.
 
I had a CRKT M21 fail on me in real use. I was cutting some boxes layered on one another to cut back on time, and the blade just closed. I didn't et cut, fortunately. Afterward, I spine whacked it on my forearm, and it closed like nothing. Just one expereince, but if it counts for anything, I've used many folders harder, and never had a failure like that.
 
I'm happy to report that my M16-13Z has had no failures, and passes the tests by Barr and Talmudge with no problem at all, in fact the liner once engaged does not move at all under torquing, or whacking or any other use that i've submitted it to.

I've never had any flimsiness felt in the Zytel scales either, which people have commented on.

Regarding the previous posts it seems that there are a selective few models that have problems, these being:

CRKT Point Guard, Emerson PSARK, Spyderco Military.

I'd like to say that if these few models are indeed having a problem, then it must not be assumed that the rest of CRKT, Emerson, or Spyderco's product line have faults as well regarding liner locks.

I think most people agree that the M16 line of CRKT's do lock up solidly, as do the emersons and spyderco lines.

Also, since liner locks are so extensively used, the failure rate being reportedly high is probably of no real surprise. It's been around for a while.

However I am concerned that a lot of newer designs are marketed as being safer while theoretically sound, have not stood the test of time and usage. I'm thinking esp Axis lock here.

Either way, not all knives are made the same so do your research and test your own knives for confidence and safety.

I trust my CRKT M16 and my Kershaw Leek for what I use it for. Its up to you to know your knives.
 
Joe Talmadge said:
If you grip it tight at that causes blade play, you're seriously compromising the lockup. Use it like that, and it's not unlikely to fail. One of a zillion problems liner locks are susceptible to, and the reason so many of us have sworn off them. I wouldn't use that knife.
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That kind of stinks. :) So then what do you do with a knife like this then? I wouldn't want to sell it to anyone else, but I don't want to use it either. I've never done this before and I was amazed to see the results.
 
Ya, I'm with you, I wouldn't sell it to anyone, at least without revealing that it partially unlocks when white-knuckled (and ensuring that the person knows what that means). I tend to either contact the manufacturer to see if they'll do something about it, or retire the knife completely and write it off as a lesson. I suppose if you're feeling really ambitious, break out the dremel. You can probably feel exactly the part of the liner that's contacting your hand, and can grind that part off, though you'll want to make sure you don't sacrifice structural stability
 
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