Liner locks fail???

[Carl64]

We have seen here on this forum and others quite recently MBC rated locks from 'heavy duty' folders fail spine taps, not whacks, and also a video of a BenchMade axis lock not just failing a spine tap but failing very light spine taps miserably. Funny how those are forgotten. I call that 'selective memory loss' because I know some of you guys read and watched those clips.

If you want to talk about those, start another thread. We can't talk about everything at once.

Linerlocks probably get more time because they were previously thought (mostly by victims of hype) to be such a big improvement over lockbacks. It's no secret that lockbacks can fail too (though they can be made correctly as well), and people don't usually argue about it.

Since axis locks are limited to one manufacturer (although similar things are used by others), the total number of people that have used one is lower. Almost everyone has used a liner lock.

The title of this thread makes the subject clear. Why come in here and ask why we aren't talking about something else?

 

[STR]

Oh I get it. Mentioning the other locks makes your comments look bad so you don't want to talk about it by pulling the stay on topic line. The topic is about failures. I think my post and the comments made in it are acceptable and in line with the topic at hand. If you don't, tough $hit go read something else Carl and tell someone what to do there. Why didn't you say that when Cliff started off on a story totally off topic? I know why. It didn't come back at your comments.

If you feel the need to defend your selective memory loss that isn't my problem. The fact is you and Cliff seem to want to make it out to be liner locks are the only ones with the potential for failures. They are not. That is the whole reason for my mention of the other type locks that also can, have and do on occassion fail which ties right back into the topic we are discussing. Like I said before. Liner locks are older, and there are many more out there in the hands of the public. When you look at the percentages I don't doubt that you are correct about the numbers.



STR

 

[Laceration]

There is a difference between breaking a lock and accidental release. If you were buying a lock system for your bike and you discovered that if the lock was given a sharp blow with a hammer it would release would this be a concern or would you just accept it because after all, any lock can be defeated?

I would accept it because yes, any lock can be defeated, and it would be a concern. The same applies to my knives. I understand the locks can fail and it's a concern so I don't use them as hard as I would a fixed blade. I don't understand what point you were trying to make.

 

[STR]

I caught that also. Seems to imply that since all locks can fail there is no need to buy any doesn't it? I think the point is; There is no such thing as a full proof lock system. We shoot for a higher standard and we hope to get closer to 100% but it is actually not attainable.

The liner lock worked for many years for lots of people and still does. It came into use and celebrity at a time when many folks like myself were still carrying a slip joint or at best a small lock back that was probably very similar to the older ones I have in my collection from 30 plus years ago that were not near as strong or reliable as the lockbacks made today on average. So, naturally the liner lock was earning a place in people's hearts. The early tests of liner locks proved to everyone that they were indeed stronger than all the other locks being made at the time. Read the Bernard Levine article about it. http://pweb.netcom.com/~brlevine/liners.txt

I get pretty passionate about it and the history behind this lock that changed the face of knife making as we know it today. It did a great service to all users for many years and how do we thank it? By lambasting it on public forums like it is nothing less than a POS invention or something. It is preposterous really when you stop to think about it.

 

[Carl64]

Oh I get it. Mentioning the other locks makes your comments look bad so you don't want to talk about it by pulling the stay on topic line. The topic is about failures. I think my post and the comments made in it are acceptable and in line with the topic at hand. If you don't, tough $hit go read something else Carl and tell someone what to do there. Why didn't you say that when Cliff started off on a story totally off topic? I know why. It didn't come back at your comments.

If you feel the need to defend your selective memory loss that isn't my problem. The fact is you and Cliff seem to want to make it out to be liner locks are the only ones with the potential for failures. They are not. That is the whole reason for my mention of the other type locks that also can, have and do on occassion fail which ties right back into the topic we are discussing. Like I said before. Liner locks are older, and there are many more out there in the hands of the public. When you look at the percentages I don't doubt that you are correct about the numbers.

STR

We were talking about liner locks. If you want to talk about something else then talk about it. But just because someone else isn't already talking about what YOU want to talk about doesn't mean there is something wrong with any of us. The title of this thread indicates the original poster wanted to talk about liner locks, as did the content of that post. Big surprise that this thread isn't about the Axis lock, eh? In what threads is it OK for us to NOT talk about whatever you want to talk about without us having "selective memory loss?"

I never said liner locks are the only ones with problems, or even the only ones with the potential for problems. The memory issue is yours.

 

[Carl64]

Why didn't you say that when Cliff started off on a story totally off topic? I know why. It didn't come back at your comments.

Even if he was off topic, which I don't know what story you mean, that's the opposite. You insulted us for NOT being off topic.

 

[STR]

Talk about off topic Carl.

Maybe you should accept private messages so I could give you an ear full since you want to lecture me about how to stay on topic when you are guilty of exactly what you want to lecture me about.

As for my posts above. They are on topic. If you can't accept a comparison for lock failures in a post without thinking it is straying off topic look around this forum and you'll see far worse examples of off topic discussions then the one you acuse me of.

And no you didn't say it directly but it is implied. Hundreds tested? Please.

 

[T.K.C.]

I have never had a liner lock fail!!

 

[Carl64]

Talk about off topic Carl.

Maybe you should accept private messages so I could give you an ear full since you want to lecture me about how to stay on topic when you are guilty of exactly what you want to lecture me about..

Hmm, there's selective memory loss. You accused us of sometime because YOU wanted to change the subject. Changing the subject isn't a big deal, but to accuse people of "selective memory loss" because they didn't change it already?

And no you didn't say it directly but it is implied.

Where? Where did I imply that "liner locks are the only ones with the potential for failures?" That's a ridicoulous statement. It's not even exagerated, it's completely false.

Hundreds tested? Please

You seriously think I am lying about how many knives I have? You really are running out of thoughts.

 

[STR]

I don't doubt you have that many knives because I know how many I have. I do however doubt you have done any viable tests of hundreds anywhere near the league Cliff or Joe or Steve has.

When you imply that you have tested hundreds that is where I feel exaggerations are a high probability.

And no I'm not running out of thoughts. I have plenty but your settings won't allow me to share them with you because you want to hide behind the anonymity of the internet rather than allow outside contact. That is fine though. I'm done speaking with so you go play your games with someone else or continue your serious testings of all your hundreds of liner locks. :yawn: .

 

[Carl64]

I don't doubt you have that many knives because I know how many I have. I do however doubt you have done any viable tests of hundreds anywhere near the league Cliff or Joe or Steve has.

I didn't say I tested every one of them, I said I used them. I have tested a lot of them, and pretty much every knife I have ever held was examined closely. I was giving people an idea of what kind of numbers I am talking about vs. people that only have one or two knives total.

When you imply that you have tested hundreds that is where I feel exaggerations are a high probability.

Everything is implied to you. Every statement you make is an error or stretched interpretation.

And no I'm not running out of thoughts. I have plenty but your settings won't allow me to share them with you because you want to hide behind the anonymity of the internet rather than allow outside contact. That is fine though.

Hiding? I have my private messages turned off because I don't come here to have private converstations. Everything I have to say to you on this matter is in relation to what you said here.

I'm done speaking with so you go play your games with someone else or continue your serious testings of all your hundreds of liner locks. :yawn: .

For someone who always accuses people of implying things, you sure do make a lot of sarcastic, rude, or indirect comments. Playing games, selective memory loss, hiding behind the Internet?

This message is hidden because STR is on your ignore list.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I don't understand what point you were trying to make.

The level of failure is what is important. Just like bike locks have a standard of performance so do knife locks. I lock the doors on my car, if I found out that by jiggling the handle the door would unlock I would not accept this as fine because after all any lock can be bypassed. Your above post seem to indicate you would, that's fine, everyone can set their own standard.

As for fixed blades vs folders, I have lots of fixed blades that I can't use nearly as hard as many of my folders, and I have lots of folders I can use as hard as I want in many ways without concern about lock release as they are properly designed. Simply saying get a fixed blade isn't an issue because you can just get a proper lock.

Not to mention than many of the failures being reported are well within the promoted usage of the knives.

When you imply that you have tested hundreds that is where I feel exaggerations are a high probability.

That isn't that much for someone who has a knife collection, people will rountinely turn over knives so even if they only have say 20-30 at one time, several could be turned over each month. For someone who has been doing this for even say ten years this is several hundred and some people have much larger collections, have been doing it longer and turn over collections faster. Then you have side issues, for example I handle a lot of knives I don't own, almost everyone I know who owns knives asks me to sharpen them and I can add that to my experience in an more restricted sense. Most people on the forums who are somewhat knife experienced tend to be the ones in their circle that sharpens knives thus their pool of experience is fairly large.

Again though some of you guys amaze me the way you zero in on one thing (spine taps) and make it look like the liner lock is the only one suceptible to failure should it occur.

No one said that, that is completely false. In fact I have shown how you can even break lockbacks from spine impacts, it is in one of the reviews. The statements are simply that personal experience and pooled experience of guys like Joe and Steve who evalauted a large number of locks show that the rates of failures are higher in general. As noted Joe has specifically stated that he has seen specific makers liner locks be very stable. I have not, but don't doubt his experience.

We have seen here on this forum and others quite recently MBC rated locks from 'heavy duty' folders fail spine taps, not whacks, and also a video of a BenchMade axis lock not just failing a spine tap but failing very light spine taps miserably. Funny how those are forgotten.

No one has forgotton it, Carl even started a thread talking about why he feels it has happened. How can you possibly accuse him of ignoring it? He didn't talk about it here probably because it was a thread on liner locks. Had it been on issues with lockbacks he would have discussed it and probably not tried to excuse the behavior by noting that other locks have failed as well.

-Cliff

 

[STR]

My apologies to anyone else that feels as Carl does. I simply expect people to see all sides in issues regarding liner locks or anything else we discuss here. As for my being rude. Trust me none of you have seen rude from me. But if my sarcasm or senior moments of crankiness offends you take it with a grain of salt like everything else around here. Nothing I say is written in stone. It is all opinion based on years of experience usually. I just have little patience when it comes to people that only want to focus on one side of the coin when there are two sides to deal with. I also do not 'tell' well.

Liner locks can fail in certain movements of torque or twisting as Cliff and others have discussed. Other than this they are certainly capable of pleasing even the most discerning of buyers and users out there or they would not have lasted as long as they have. How many generations of knife lovers have to grow up with the liner lock before we begin to appreciate it? None of the lock systems made are full proof. But just because we have axis locks, and frame locks and super lock backs now does not mean we just throw out the old one that still sells and pleases many people and still has its place in the cutlery world. I say again; many people in hard use situations rely on liner lock folders and have for many years. They have held up and won the full trust of many people over the years.

Are there better locks? I guess so, but what is the definition of better? How long will these other locks be around? Well, the jury is still out on that isn't it? Many of these new locks have not been around long enough for the kind of long term study like the liner lock has recieved. It will be interesting to see how they do over time and if they do keep up with the liner and frame lock ideas that have made many knife lovers very happy over the years since I got my first knife.

 

[kamkazmoto]

I have had a liner lock fail and it pissed me off because it was a favorite of mine, a Spyderco Sharbaria. It first failed in use and then subsequent light spine whacks. I still use it but I use it like I would a slipjoint.

 

[STR]

I don't know how you can talk about liner locks without leading into frame locks or other locks too. Doing so does not, in my book of definitions anyway, constitute straying the thread off topic when it ties into the topic being discussed. We are still talking about liner locks so where was the harm in anything I said? Why was it even necessary to think twice about it? Your story on the gal loosing a finger was far more off topic than anything I said Cliff.

 

[Troll Bait From Hell]

How does the knife close with the lock engaged? Many liners/integrals have seat/engagements initially. They can often be fixed with inertial openings of spine whacks.

Cliff,

I've done a LOT of opening using the wave feature (wore holes in two pair of blue jeans) trying to "seat" this, as well as using two hands to slightly depress the liner while pushing down on the blade trying to wear the mating surfaces together. All to no avail. I got the thing immediately after PSARKS first came out, roughly three years ago, maybe four.

If I run the pivot area under boiling water to really clean it off, usually the lock works. It still moves around quite a bit, and the liner flexes (it's thinner than any other liner lock that I have), but it still stays locked. After a few days, the lock begins to easily fail again. I can cause this to happen a few minutes after cleaning with boiling water by doing the "seating" exercise described in the preceeding paragraph. My guess is that some titanium dust being worn off is acting as a lubricant.

Speaking of lubricants, I use none on this knife.

I doubt that it would handle a spine whack, though I have never done one, not having a chain mail glove.

Lest anyone misunderstand, I am not slamming Emerson here. I do intend one day to send it back to have it fixed, just haven't done so yet. From what I've ready, they'll fix it right up.

 

[Bastid]

I think one should just view a liner lock as a safety feature that makes the knife easier to use than one with no lock at all. With the right kind of use, any lock can be made to fail. With normal use of the knife, the locks perform their purpose, that of adding safety to the use of the knife, pretty well.

Certainly, some locks are stronger than others. There is usually some added weight that comes with that strength. Fixed blades, of course, don't have or need locks but they don't fit very conveniently in the pocket. There are tradeoffs with almost everything in life in addition to knife locks.

I think the user just needs to weigh those tradeoffs and choose a product with the tradeoffs that are most favorable for the application. I happen to like locking folders that are on the small and light side. I don't use folding knives very hard and I don't view them as a weapon, but rather as a tool. So liner locks are usually a pretty good choice for me. For someone else they are a poor choice. If one lock were best in every respect, then all locking folders would have the same lock.

I think that sums things up very well. For me, it is best to think of a lock on a knife as a safety on a firearm, toggle locks, lock backs, liner locks. slip joints it does not matter to me, a folders primary job is to cut things with the sharp edge of the blade. Develop a mind set of controling your blade as you would control your shots. If my control of the blade is in question or there is a need for choping, hacking or placing any pressure on the spine of the blade a folder is not the tool I will be using.

Try carrying a small fixed blade as well as a folder if it is not against the ordinances in your area. I have a few in materials ranging from W2, O1, L6, S3V, Talonite and damascus they ride in a pocket or in a belt sheath well and come in handy if you find yourself cutting materials that might hinder the ability to control the blade.

 

[STR]

My one experience with Emerson was same day service. They got the knife and the day they got it they mailed it back to me repaired that same afternoon. 10 days total time and all but that one day was the shipping to and from.

I had a blunt tip SARK that also had the thin liner. Later I got a CQC7A and it too had the same thickness liner though. The only ones that appeal to me anymore from the Emerson line up are the older 98 models with the thicker lock and liner in them. I know many say it has little relevance to security but the beefier ones just look better to me and less 'cheap' for lack of a better work.

 

[Laceration]

The level of failure is what is important. Just like bike locks have a standard of performance so do knife locks. I lock the doors on my car, if I found out that by jiggling the handle the door would unlock I would not accept this as fine because after all any lock can be bypassed. Your above post seem to indicate you would, that's fine, everyone can set their own standard.

I'm not sure why saying all locks can fail pisses you off so badly. Choose a lock that you believe will perform up to the expectations you have for it. I personally believe that liner locks belong on smaller knives. I don't like liner locks on bigger hard use knives like the Spyderco Military or Rat Trap becuase I don't think the lock has the appropriate properties for the level of use it will see. That being said, last I checked, most major knife manafacturers weren't in the business of having their customers lop their fingers off. Anyway, if you don't like liner locks, don't buy them. Seems pretty simple to me.

 

[STR]

Its an emotional issue for many of us knife lovers really. I'm certainly not above getting hot under the collar when these liner lock threads get started. I hate them. Really I do. Bet you didn't know that.

I find that some of the smaller fixed blades are quite easy to carry and they conceal as well as a folder if not better. My Bob Dozier Personal is very discreet. I have a concealed carry license and most LEO are not going to be too worried about the knife I have on me when they hear that I'm armed with my firearm so it is no big deal for me to carry a fixed blade at all. I'm sure I am not the only one in this situation.

All locks are a safety feature. Many of the companies selling the hype associated with their products are responsible for some of the false hopes mentioned. I don't see where there is a problem so long as they honor their end of the agreement. If they say the scope of the work it can do is what you were doing when it failed then yes you have a viable complaint and should expect a prompt repair or replacement of the folder. But most of what I've read about regarding these failures including the spine taps or whacks or whatever you want to call them are gross abuses of the folder based on the warranty. Bottom line is to know the warranty and especially the fine print. Forget the hype and all the marketing BS. None of that will count or matter when it comes to getting a warranty taken care of.