Long knife vs Axe vs Hatchet vs Machete vs compact shovel

[LSkylizard]

What do you think will be most universal tool from these for USA/Europe (not talking about tropical jungles) if you have multi-tool and small fixed blade knife as well?

Defintely a ...axe...

Caveat...I have little first hand experience. However, I have been looking around and doing a little informal research. From my perspective, I believe an axe/hawk of some sort will be best. It has to have enough weight to provide enough chop force. I want at least a small edge under the beard for some slicing (back-up assignment)...see K5 or Talon or similar. I guess you will have to decide if you need a spike.

Now, having said that, I must confess 1. clearly heavier then just a long knife (usually) or machete 2. I will have a SAK and a leatherman with other tools.

Again, this is just my opinion. But, If you think you need chopping, an axe/hawk is the way to go with some small tools on the side (i.e. SAK & leatherman). I know some will tout the WSK (I will probably buy a WSK From R. Linger). But, it will never match the chopping capacity of a true axe/hawk and is heavy for a knife and not optimal for any tasks. It will work for numerous tasks...just not the best tool for any one specific task. I much prefer a dedicated chopper over battoning a long knife.

The bottom line is you need to have an understanding of where you are going, what chores you will need your tool to perform, under what conditions, and during which season? If you are just asking a blanket hypothetical of tool for everything...I say hawk/axe complimented by other smaller items as noted. If you say a dense viney jungle during a day hike...probably a machete

 

[LSkylizard]

So, I read the threads in this forum. I often find individuals (probably me included) always hedging on the answer to a given question. I sometimes find the answer leaving me as unsure as when the original question was posed.

I would like to just interject a specific and narrow question into this thread that may or may not be the same as the original question. I ask that the answers be as direct and to the point and stay within the confines of the question...please refrain from the temptation of "but in this situation" or "in that situation this might be better...". Here goes your scenario:

You know you will have to spend a great deal of time at some point in the next 2 years in the "austere wilderness" USA/Canada or Europe. If you have a multi-tool and small fixed blade knife, what do you think will be an ideal complement item Long knife vs Axe vs Hatchet vs Machete vs compact shovel? All you know about this excursion are the following: 1. You will be called at an unexpected time 2. You have no way of knowing what the season or weather conditions will be 3. You have no idea what type of shelter will be available or what you will have to make 4. you have no idea if you will be alone or with others

So, everything you can know is within the question above. You have no way of knowing anymore then what has been asked or stated above. Again, under these circumstances, unsure of what it will be, when it will be, duration, etc... what item would you choose? Oh yeh, you can only choose one...no fixed blade for the free hand, etc... You will get the call and have to pick up your pack with the items already in it. Or better yet, you make your choice now and your choice is already waiting at the destination...no time to quick switch etc...

If you choose an axe/hawk/hatchet etc..., please either state brand and model or if being generic, provide handle length, head weight, main blade cutting edge length, and spike or hammer poll in your answer.

 

[ml100]

The swedish broad axe
http://www.gransfors.com/htm_eng/index.html

 

[Cliff Stamp]

You know you will have to spend a great deal of time at some point in the next 2 years in the "austere wilderness" USA/Canada or Europe. If you have a multi-tool and small fixed blade knife, what do you think will be an ideal complement item Long knife vs Axe vs Hatchet vs Machete vs compact shovel? All you know about this excursion are the following: 1. You will be called at an unexpected time 2. You have no way of knowing what the season or weather conditions will be 3. You have no idea what type of shelter will be available or what you will have to make 4. you have no idea if you will be alone or with others

A machete is just a long knife which lacks a primary grind, it is the cheapest way to make a long knife, a hatchet is just a small axe and there is really no reason to carry a hatchet vs a small two handed axe (small forest) outside of space/weight. It comes down to axe vs parang/golok, and this depends mainly on skill and exactly what you intend to do and where you are going. Do you have the actual skill and experience to fell large wood, do the people you have with you? Do know the wood type?

Soft wood axes are near useless on hardwoods and the opposite is true as well. Saying just take an axe is like saying just use some rope for climbing as if you could grab any rope and it would do. I have a number of actual dedicated felling axes, one of them was a true soft wood profile and was so horrible on hardwoods that it was readily outpeformed at felling by a bowie, let alone a parang.

There are other considerations besides felling like splitting, chopping ice, etc. as well. How much of this is relevant. These as well require dedicated axes, an actual hardwood felling axe will get manged trying to split the wood.

-Cliff

 

[longbow50]

I don't believe that I'd need to change my choice at all. In addition to a fixed blade and multitool, I would add the 19" OAL, 2#, 6" wide x 3 1/4" cutting edge SA Wetterling large hunters axe. My reasoning is that it fits in between a heavier, larger felling axe and a hatchet, giving me a tool that I would be comfortable using as an all around tool.

 

[LSkylizard]

Thank you ml100 & longbow.

...It comes down to axe vs parang/golok...
what you intend to do and where you are going.
Do know the wood type?...

Cliff,

The scenario is as posed, there will be/are no further answers. "You" would be going somewhere in USA/Canada or Europe. :grumpy: You read the scenario, make a choice or not. Based on your numerous postings, it would seem you are extensively knowledgeable...so make your best guess on what you will need for the great unknown posed by this scenario. Choose based on worst case scenario or best case scenario. Roll a dice...but make a choice. Maybe you choose right maybe it is the wrong tool for where you go. The point is what would be your first choice if you had limited recon/intell. I am sure whatever choice you make will have some explanation based on your skill and knowledge.

 

[Thomas Linton]

I am having difficulty seeing the value of suggestions of gear required to be unrelated to/disconnected from the very conditions that dictate what gear is best.

 

[LSkylizard]

I am having difficulty seeing the value of suggestions of gear required to be unrelated to/disconnected from the very conditions that dictate what gear is best.

Thomas, the scenario is trying to get an idea of what "you" would choose if you had limited information. What would be your first choice. I agree, it would be great if you could always know exactly what you would need. I often see numerous replies throughout listing everything from every catalogue. I often see survival kits that must take up three warehouses! It is easy to simply post a long list of suggestions. However, if "you" had limited budget in money, space, weight, and information, what would you choose? By all means, tell us why you choose what you choose. The scenario I have posed leaves you with little knowledge to plan with, true. So, make a choice or say you will just do without because you might choose wrong. Hey, I know plenty of very skilled survival individuals that swear all they will ever need is the knife .

On a seperate note, not directed at TL above, I have generally seen two different types of "survivalists". Those that are inventive and can get by with as little as possible. They use whatever they can take and adapt to the unknown when it becomes known. The other type seems to try and stock up for every eventuality. They buy a different knife, a different axe, a different survival kit, a different SAK, etc...for every possible situation. Nothing wrong with that... But, it is alot of gear... and I have seen those same individuals then paralyzed trying to figure out just what they will take because maybe this or maybe that or what if...... kind of like when my wife packs my luggage for our vacation, I always end up with 3-4 full size suitcases of clothing I never use...just in case!

 

[alco141]

ler me take a different tact on thisw subject, if we are in the arborial forest of the northern hemisphere, the axe is the most traditional tool, i woulod doubt that 3000 years of selection would be wrong. i think if i were to take a full sized axe i might select a pulaski axe as my chopper as it has the ability to dig also. if i need a full sized axe to accomplish my assigned chores then i would consider that a mattock would be a very usefull adjunct for preparing the construction/ permenent camp site.

alex

 

[LSkylizard]

...a full sized axe ...a pulaski
...if i need a full sized axe to accomplish my assigned chores then i would consider that a mattock...

Alex, so your two first choices would be Pulaski or Mattock. Given you have no other information, do you flip a coin to make your final choice? Or do you choose one of those two and what is your final reasoning...no further pre-journey information is forthcoming

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Thomas, the scenario is trying to get an idea of what "you" would choose if you had limited information.

You have a patient, they are sick and going to die now, you can only give them one drug, which one is it? You can't ask anyone for information. Pretty silly senario isn't it. Which is more valuable, the knowledge of the disease which is going to kill them, or the drug you need to give them so they don't immediately die. This is what a lot of the threads often some down to basically, the items change but the basic questions are the same, which of course is irrelevant and more entertainment than reality.

In reality if you want to be a doctor you get training to get the information you need to be able to figure out what is making someone sick *AND* what materials you need to treat it. I doubt you would find it acceptable if the next time you were in an operating room in a complex operation someone passed you a stanley utility knife and said improvise, no scalpels, no blood for tranfusions, no clamps, no moniters, etc. . Hey if you were skilled enough you could do it right?

I would assume you go to seminars to keep your information current, learn about new techniques, new drugs, new treatments, present what you know and ask others. You can do the same on the forums, you just have to proceed in the same manner with the same style. So instead of radical extreme hypotheticals, do as much work as you can outdoors in as many different enviroments as you can, and share what you have learned and hope others will do the same.

So, make a choice or say you will just do without because you might choose wrong.

Awhile back I spent some time in a community which is just a few hundred km away from where I live, there were two types of wood there I had not seen. One of them was so clear and open grained that I could split it readily with my hardwood felling axe, something I would not even attempt on white pine because it is rarely that clear. The other type was so twisted and frequently ring knotted that I could put two wedges and a GB splitting maul in it before it would crack. These were not even large rounds. Think about what that means in regards to axe selection. Read the Axe Book by Cook, and Lee's book on sharpening to just get a basic feel for how much variance you can get in axes all for the same task, not to mention different axes for limbing, felling, root cutting and splitting, and then carving and shaping.

I have generally seen two different types of "survivalists". Those that are inventive and can get by with as little as possible. They use whatever they can take and adapt to the unknown when it becomes known. The other type seems to try and stock up for every eventuality.

These are the two extremes, any group has them, one is the rambo and the other then anti-rambo. You generally ignore the extremes and look towards the middle. My grandfather was a master craftsmen who worked in wood, a finish carpenter who also did intricate carvings (animals, people and such) in his spare time. He was comfortable using very basic tools because often he would do it without planning as in give someone a hand at their house, however his workshop was stocked with hundreds of tools, many of which would look identical unless you were familar with wood craft, multiple of the same chisel for example (size and brand) with different edge angles for different woods or cut types (end grain cuts vs top planing).

Note all northern canada isn't the same, canada is a big place, if you go far enough north then there is no wood to cut so it is either ice axe or long thin blade or saw for snow blocks.

-Cliff

 

[alco141]

Alex, so your two first choices would be Pulaski or Mattock. Given you have no other information, do you flip a coin to make your final choice? Or do you choose one of those two and what is your final reasoning...no further pre-journey information is forthcoming

a pulaski axe is a combo mattock and axe.
the information provided is that i would need a tool to do construction of a permanent shelter and as such would need to dig and chop, so since i could have one tool then i guess i would need a tool that could do both. this is the single tool that i would expect might meet these job reqirements.
since we get only one tool.

http://www.thefirestore.com/store/product.cfm?pID=1497

alex

 

[LSkylizard]

You have a patient, they are sick and going to die now... Pretty silly senario isn't it.
...if you want to be a doctor you...

In the trauma room we often have a scenario with little information and little time and not always the best supplies available to use in the next 30 seconds to 2 minutes...yes, we improvise! In the OR we open a "kit" for the planned operation. We sometimes are surprised at what we find (in the patient) and sometimes have great difficulty obtaining supplies/equipment fast enough...and yes, patients do die on the table! I assure you that someone dying in a few minutes is not the same thing as going on an excursion with an axe that might not be the best suited item! I know we would all like to draw parallels to what we think are similar situations. However these are not. I can tell you that the ED physicians, Internal medicine physicians, even the nurses do not have a full grasp of what the choices, options, and scenarios are for surgeons. So, if you aren't in the medical field, I suspect you have at best, a very limited clue of what it is really like! :jerkit:

...Note all northern canada isn't the same, canada is a big place...

Obviously, that is the point. First, I doubt the frontiersmen/pioneers had a quiver of multiple axes etc.. to use depending on the wood! My understanding of history is that many went into a vast and unknown woods with less education or knowledge about materials or the wilderness then anyone on this forum (yes, we know, many died). Second, My Boy Scout troop would often make some excursions into the wilderness. We had a few full size axes and some hand axes. The full size axes were all identical as were the hand axes. We didn't have an internet forum. We didn't know anything about tempering metal etc... We made do. We definately did not choose a different axe for N. FL vs NC vs the trip to Yellowstone. I will sometimes visit friends out of state. My friends will sometimes at a spur of the moment decide to go camping. They don't have high tech tents or tons of gear. I never know if we will make such a trip. I never know if the trip is within a few hours of my friends place or accross the state line. In any event, I make do and learn from the excursion. I dare say that if I invited a friend to my place and he/she brought along a half dozen axes, 3 multitools, and 15-20 hand knives, I would be concerned! I will say that for the vast number of people that go "camping" the scenario is less "silly" and closer to reality. Not everyone is fixed on the intricate details (maybe they should be). Not everyone gets onto the forums to figure out what gear they should carry. It is probably a good idea too. Because, I would have a warehouse of stuff if I was to follow all the ideas from even a few individuals on this forum.

You either are unable to provide a best educated guess/choice or are unwilling to do so. That is your decision. There are numerous threads throughout this forum Cliff in which you have expressed your vast knowledge of "tool for environment" choice. That is not what I was asking. This question is not about practicing your survival skills in an "extreme condition" preselected, pre-experienced, pre-practiced, pre-prepared woods. Do not worry, I am certain you will have the opportunity throughout the forum to speak to your vast knowledge on these and all subjects and list a very long reply to each question and point out how silly some questions are.

...If I intended to cut a lot of wood and were camping from my vehicle, I'd definately take my chainsaw, or precut wood itself. Usually when one thinks of "wilderness", what comes to mind is transport by shank's mare, and light weight multipurpose tools come to mind...I also understand the boredom of some with traditional designs, always seeking that latest hi-buck gadget to overcome a lack of skill or knowledge...
My philosophy is that newer and more expensive is not always better. Quite often, someone got it right years ago!...

 

[LSkylizard]

...would need to dig and chop, so since i could have one tool then i guess i would need a tool that could do both. this is the single tool that i would expect might meet these job reqirements.
since we get only one tool...

Alex, thank you for your answer and reasoning.

 

[Morkaleb]

for me, it's my BK9, there's not much that knife can't or won't do, and my 10" take down saw. That combo will make short work of any job you might have to do.

 

[LSkylizard]

From earlier direct responses:

Axe: the universal "sidekick"
definitely a good axe
Fiskars model 600 camping ax: weighs 520 grams...extremely sharp off the box (the edge is HRC is 50-56), the blade will NOT come loose ever, because its specially molded in to the shaft,handle is fiberglass reinforced composite. Length is 360 mm.
Hatchet: very useful...easy to carry, can do most of the work of a axe and a machete
Woodsman's Pal: if i had it in a survival situation i would feel pretty comfortable using it…does a whole bunch of jobs, …have parted logs in the 10 inch range with it, and it has held its edge well. … does not get stuck in wood… dug holes …used it to remove all manner of …vegetation, pruned trees… used to to drag brush…very compact and versatile ... will build a shelter pretty quickly… would give you a whole bunch of fire wood easily, i think it is also safer than a golok or axe as it does not tend bo rebound or ricochet off of hard wood like i have had some of the various machetes and axes do. i have not used it as a draw knife, but it has potential in this aspect also.
large knife, 7 to 8 inch blade
Defintely a small belt axe
Granfors Bruks small forest axe or simple forged tomahawk: If you break a handle, you can cut a new one... excellent for camp/kitchen chores with the handle removed. An hawk or an axe is also a handy tool for quartering big game.
Shovel: overall utility in real life is the goal so
6" - 8" knife: the best all around choice in most situations...dig, chop, etc...less to carry in weight and volume.


Most recent replies to my narrowed question:

19" OAL, 2#, 6" wide x 3 1/4" cutting edge SA Wetterling large hunters axe: fits in between a heavier, larger felling axe and a hatchet, a tool that I would be comfortable using as an all around tool.
pulaski axe: a combo mattock and axe. I would need a tool to do construction of shelter ...need to dig and chop... the single tool that i would expect might meet these job reqirements.
BK9: not much that knife can't or won't do...

 

[gallowglass]

LSkylizard,

Based on your enhanced long term arboreal forest scenario, I'd take the GB brittish trade axe. It's not to big to walk long distances with but big enough to cut hardwoods for permanent shelter and with it and the multitool I can make almost any other tool I might need.

I can always baton fire wood rather than chop it, and I can gather that firewood by knocking down dead limbs with tough staff, but I need the axe to construct a truly winter comfortable permanent shelter. The axe beats a shovel for shelter construction in the woods because you can't always dig. Frozen ground, roots, etc. In the event of snow, you can use the axe to make a rough wooden paddle shovel/ snow knife and finish them out with the small blades.

In the rare event of a self defense scenario, the axe would be a formidable weapon against man or animal. It even has value as a trade item to people other than us knife nuts, maybe getting me a ride back to town.

I don't see myself doing a lot of brush clearing work, which is where I see the parang/golock's really pulling ahead of the axe, so I wouldn't choose those for this scenario. Also, I know that the GB's are going to be made right. There's too much variability in the quality control on the various commonly available parang/golocks/machetes.

The belt axe doesn't use wedges, so I can fit a handle to it if need be. A loose wedged axe head is trouble waiting to happen, and the water soaking method just delays the problem.

The big knife would be better in an average modern combat situation , but that's not what we are talking about, here.

Take Care,
Jeff

 

[LSkylizard]

...Based on your enhanced long term arboreal forest scenario, I'd take the GB brittish trade axe. It's not to big to walk long distances with but big enough to cut hardwoods for permanent shelter and with it and the multitool I can make almost any other tool I might need...

Jeff,

Thank you for a well thought out and reasoned direct answer. I know being "tied down" to a very narrow scenario can make some squirm. I appreciate your willingness to choose an item and explain your choice as others have. I have found the most recent replies with explanations by you and others helpful.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

First, I doubt the frontiersmen/pioneers had a quiver of multiple axes etc.. to use depending on the wood!

Yes, they used ones chosen to local woods and/or hand optomized them. Same thing they did here a generation ago, plus few people could afford multiple axes unless they worked as actual loggers. Time for them was much cheaper, so they made do with less efficient tools.

Most people here had a felling axe and a splitting maul. You chose an axe which worked well on the main variety of wood you intended to burn and either ignored the ones which it would not cut well or cut them *very* carefully using different techniques usually, you multiple cut limbs for example.

As for people making due, go back that time and look at medicine, do you limit yourself the same as they were, probably not.

I dare say that if I invited a friend to my place and he/she brought along a half dozen axes, 3 multitools, and 15-20 hand knives, I would be concerned!

You generally don't need a half a dozen axes, you usually need three if they are fully optomized, one for felling, one for limbing or root work and one for splitting. You can also choose something inbetween depending on the type of wood and reduce this further.

On something like pine for example you don't need a dedicated splitting axe because it splits easily and the limbs are also soft and a felling pattern can be used. However black spruce for example needs a dedicated hardwood axe to fell efficiently and this won't split it at all.

Of course you can use a soft wood profile on it, which can split it though poorly, it just takes 5-10 times as long to cut the wood, more if the wood is large. I have never run comparasions on another larger than 8-12" because it would just be an exercise in frustration to cut that type of wood with the wrong axe.

So if you guess wrong, and that is all you can do is guess, you can end up with an axe which takes a hour to cut down a tree vs a couple of minutes, that is assuming that you realize what is going on, don't get frustrated or excited in a *survival* situation, have the experience and don't actually break the bit of the axe in the wood or hurt yourself as if the bit is off the chance of glances goes way up.

Jim Aston sent me a Hult awhile back, it was optomized for really soft woods, softer than pine even, I could not use it at all on the harder woods around here, in order to not have it glance the angle had to be so steep that penetration was minimal. It had a huge five lbs head and I could outchop it with a small hatchet many times to one. Totally wrong axe for here, but would work really well somethere.

And of course there may not even be wood to cut.

You either are unable to provide a best educated guess/choice or are unwilling to do so.

For the same reason you ignored both questions I asked you. I doubt you ask them much either as learning tools. A guy is sick, don't ask him any questions or examine him, what is your suggested treatment?

-Cliff

 

[LSkylizard]

...As for people making due, go back that time and look at medicine, do you limit yourself the same as they were, probably not...

In the wilderness, yes, you have no choice. In the hospital, yes, you transfer to where they can obtain a higher level of care. In the trauma room, you make do with what you can get your hands on in those precious seconds to minutes. Again, I dare say, based on your insistence to try and parallel these scenarios, you clearly have not a clue about what surgery involves.:jerkit:

..You generally don't need a half a dozen axes, you usually need three if they are fully optomized, one for felling, one for limbing or root work and one for splitting...

That is part of the point in this scenario! I dare say a good portion of the population do make do with a single axe. Not everyone has or will have twelve, 6, or even 3.

...For the same reason you ignored both questions I asked you...

(1)You have a patient, they are sick and going to die now, you can only give them one drug, which one is it?

(2) in an operating room in a complex operation someone passed you a stanley utility knife and said improvise, no scalpels, no blood for tranfusions, no clamps, no moniters, etc. . Hey if you were skilled enough you could do it right?..

I suspected you were trying to be rhetorical...I did not actually believe you could...dare I say...be stupid enough to believe your scenario truely was a paralelel to what I asked! :jerkit: Thus I will answer:

1. Not knowing anything at all, patient could be female, male, adult or child, complication of pregnancy, heart attack, stroke, aneurysm, etc... Yes, I would most likely NOT give any medication. If, someone held a gun to my head and said I absolutely must give a medication, I would, based on years of historical information, give an ASPIRIN.

Having said that, my scenario gives you the option to not carry the third item. Clearly, if you think the chance of having a less then ideally suited axe that takes three hours to cut a tree will be such a liability, take none, the same for maybe a long knife etc...

2. No.

Assuming a complicated operation say... heart bypass? brain aneurysm? I again say there is no parallel. You can get utility in the wilderness with the two base items alone. I have posed you choose a single additional item. If that additional item is suboptimal, I do not expect anyone to die fairly precipitously. I apologize if somehow you believe your survival ability has been insulted by my "silly" scenario. Let me not belittle how dire the consequences will be if you take too long to cut your log. How dare I not clearly see the similarities to my OR situation.

Like I said Cliff, you can answer or not. Thank you for participating.:jerkit:

On second thought:jerkit: :jerkit: :jerkit: :jerkit: just in case you need at least three for different scenarios...you can have a spare!

At this point, I think the best thing for me and this thread is to just add you to ignore. I actually see no benefit in the continued bickering.