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Okay, first I need to say this- while self defense is always a consideration, THIS IS NOT A GRIZZLY BEAR THREAD.
Now, if we can all accept that bunny stew might be as essential to surviving the real American Outback as shooting a coyote or a cougar too close to your sheep (who doesn't speak Basque, even!), let's chat.
One more little note. I'm very specifically looking at revolver/levergun combos here. I think it's great that everyone except me likes glocks in the high desert. I think it's wonderful that you can carry 2000 rounds of .223 for the H-bar ar15 on a 3 point sling. that's not this thread!. For me, survival skills and workign with the wilderness involves looking at the history and culture. And to this day, this is where you will find the most (non belly gun) revolvers and leverguns being toted around.
Nevada (where I live!) is entirely in the Great Basin, which on the west, also comprises parts of southeastern california, Oregon, and Washington. To the north and east it can be considered to involve parts of Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, much of Utah, and possibly bits of Arizona down south. South it leads a bit into mexico as well. I personally would leave mexico, half of eastern socal, and all but a tiny strip of arizona out of it, since I think the Mojave is a strong southern border for the environment.
There's some debate about how exactly to label this basin thing, but for our purposes, we want to cover stuff that involves game, shooting, and climate. Climate being semi-arid to bone dry, but with water. (go figure)
Climate means lots of short shots, sure, but lots of 150 yard plus opportunities.
In game terms, the Great Basin means
Mule deer, elk, pronghorn antelope, bighorn sheep and mountain goats. Javelina, hare and rabbit, all manner of upland game. In some areas, beaver, elk, porcupine, marmot, and (not so much) squirrel.
Predators and pests include cougar, very durned few bears, coyotes, a fair array of vipers (rattlesnakes), bobcats, crows, and (not so much) squirrels.
When thinking about a Great Basin (which i live in the very middle of) regular carry firearm pairing, the environment, history, and culture just screams lever gun and revolver. In matching calibers. (part of the idea of matching the calibers, or families, is long term survival/frugality. One set of dies! trim brass. swap bullets in and out)
Looking at the list, it's obvious that the .44 magnum is not a baseline cartridge for this. Nothing in a short/long arm matched combo is going to be much use for really long shots on mule deer, and for bighorn and elk I'd want more than even a levergun performance load .44 magnum.
So, let's say that for the longer long gun than our lever gun long gun, we're looking at a long barrelled, well fitted, heavy, accurate .45-70, .375, or something. Because this 2 gun combo assumes a long range hunting rifle and a shotgun are around somewheres, too. So, there's a shotty and a big game hunter with scope in the truck, k? we're going revolver and levergun shopping.
For rifle and revolver combos, here's the easily available choices I can find.
.22
.32
.38
.44
.45
.22LR - generally a really small and light 6 shot or a full frame size 9 shot revolver, in single or double action, with a lever (or, hell, semiauto) rifle.
Not much use on anything bigger than the upland game, bunnies and coyote, but not a bad carry for purposes other than self-defense.
.32 series gets a bit interesting. I'm leaving the .32-20 out of it because it's hard to find modern weapons that match and the other .32 choices are so much better. .32-20 would be it's own category.
.32 S&W long. Way underpowered for a levergun. But, will feed in a .32 H&R magnum levergun, which starts getting us up into game shots. but not very far. a .32 SWL revolver is great for small game, and can be okay for defensive purposes.
No lever guns seem to be available in .327 federal magnum as stock. conversions seem to be available. (which would also feed the H&R and long) A revolver/levergun combo in this would bring us up to cautious antelope and mulie hunting capabilities, plenty of defensive oopmh. Plus, in a revolver, you can load down to .32SWL performance (or just shoot that cartridge) and get your bunny stew on.
A 5 inch .32long revolver and a .32 federal lever gun would be an interesting pairing.
Here's the basic specs:
.32 Smith and Wesson Long
90 gr LSWC for 765 fps and 117 foot pounds (7 inch barrel)
117gr LFP for 713fps and 132 foot pounds. (4 inch barrel)
.32 H&R Magnum
77 gr LFP for 998 fps and 170 foot pounds (7 inch barrel)
100 gr JHP for 1,208 fps 324 foot pounds (7 inch barrel)
115gr LSWC for 1231 fps and 387 food pounds.
.327 Federal Magnum
100 gr JHP for 1,400 fps and 435 foot pounds (7 inch barrel)
115 gr JHP for 1,300 fps and 431 foot pounds (7 inch barrel)
100 gr JHP(?) for 2010 fps and 897 foot pounds (18.5 inch barrel)
in "raw" foot pounds, the .327 federal out of a carbine is giving you performance equivalent to a Keith .44 special hunting round. Which people will readily hunt deer with.
However, you don't have the bullet weight, or frontal area, for the energy transfer I'd like. penetration should be excellent, however.
.38 caliber.
Okay, here's the thing. The .32 combo lacks a little of the high end oomph, but is really going to be light to carry, effective for defense, but still works well for small game.
At .38 caliber you are looking at low end 110 grain slugs, up to big 200 grain loadings. Small game starts to be less doable. At the same time, you have a wide range of power levels, a lot more popular choices (.357 lever guns can be had!), bigger shotshells, and an ample production ammo choice.
Okay, that's ignoring the .357 maximum, but I haven't seen a lever gun made for that. (I also have a really sweet shooting 6 inch .38 special revolver.)
On the used market, there are an abundance of .38 special revolvers available, including hunting and target grades, not just snubbies.
While both cartdridges post date what most people think of as the revolver and levergun era, it's probably the classic combo. Except most of the time now it's going to be a .357 revolver as well. The .38 can give you a lighter shooting piece, though.
Basic stats (bigger list due to popularity):
.38 special
110 gr ) JHP 980 ft/s 235 foot pounds (7 inch barrel)
158 gr ) LRN 770 ft/s 208 foot pounds (7 inch barrel)
140gr HP for 988 fps and 303 foot pounds (unknown pistol barrel)
158gr LSWC for 910 fps and 290 foot pounds (unknown pistol barrel)
200gr LRN for 850 fps and 320 foot pounds (unknown pistol barrel)
* note, the above load is 16,000psi and comes close to +p levels
.38 special +p
125gr JHP for 1244 fps and 429 foot pounds (unknown pistol barrel)
125gr JHP for 1067 fps and 316 foot pounds ( same load. 2 inch pistol barrel)
158gr TMJ for 929 fps and 303 foot pounds (4 inch barrel)
.38 special full power loads in rifles are hard to find data on. hitting 400 foot pounds should not be difficult at all in a carbine with any of the heavier 158gr LRN of TMJ loads.
(all of these loads will do for man stoppers, the "minimum plinking load from hodgon in the top two lines are what most people think a .38 special is, and are marginal. 95 gr. and even 78 gr. bullets are available for small game hunting loadings.)
.357 magnum
130 gr JHP for 1,410 fps and 574 foot pounds (4 inch barrel)
158 gr JSP (?) for 1,485 fps and 774 foot pounds (4 inch barrel)
110gr JHP for 1520 fps and 564 foot pounds (5.6 inch barrel)
125gr JHP for 1785 fps and 884 foot pounds (6 inch barrel)
170gr FMJ for 1310 fps and 647 foot pounds (unknown pistol barrel)
110gr JHP for 2216 fps and 1199 foot pounds (carbine barrel)*
158gr XTP for 1957 fps and 1343 foot pounds (marlin 1894)
*this illustrates an issue that is leading me towards larger calibers, even with lighter loads, such as the .44 special. the 110 load is reportedly an acupuncture risk for large game and reserved for varmints. Foot pounds aren't everything!
Whoa. Break time. You can see, the .38 area starts getting really interesting. I still think the .32 is looking like a possibility, if a light and accurate carry revolver presents itself and a .327 federal lever gun comes up.
And now, here's where I want to be. It's a gut feeling, but this just seems like, an ideal combination.
.44
With the .44 series, you gain a lot of surface impact, shotshell capacity, and... well, you lose a lot of the smaller game capability.
The .44 magnum revolver is, flat out. overkill. This isn't alaska, and I want to carry a revolver without having to tote an 8 kilogram kettlebell as a counterbalance. Fun things, those redhawks, but overkill.
Fortunately, the .44 special is making a resurgence. From the charter arms belly gun to the new .44 special blackhawk on the .357 frame.
In lever guns, you have a decent assortment of .44 magnum options, all of which will cycle .44 special as needed.
The .44 special is comfortable to shoot, and the lead flying downrange has MASS. In the .44 magnum fromt he lever action, you've got the power to hunt (at differing ranges) anything in the list. though elk are getting a bit iffy, still.
The .44 magnum is popular, so lots of choices abound. The .44 special is on the comeback and loads, as well as firearms, are becoming more available.
Remember, before the magnum, Keith was hunting with the special!
.44 special
(first, the anemic two loads for business purposes)
200 gr SWC for 870 fps and 336 foot pounds (4 inch barrel)
246 gr LRN for 755 fps and 310 foot pounds (6 inch barrel)
(okay, real loads)
180gr JHP for 920 fps and 338 foot pounds (7 inch barrel)
185gr LRNFP for 1025 fps and 431 foot pounds (unknown pistol barrel)
200gr LSWC for 992 fps and 437 foot pounds (7 inch barrel)
200gr JHP for 838 fps and 311 foot pounds (2.5 inch barrel)
240gr JHP for 1149 fps and 703 foot pounds (7 inch barrel, near +p)
250gr LSWC for 1032 fps and 591 foot pounds (6 inch barrel, classic Keith load)
300gr JSP for 794 fps and 420 foot pounds (unknown pistol barrel) (and a shit-ton of lead)
You can see, with the ability to push the 500-700 foot pound range with hollow points and semi-wadcutters, this isn't a wimpy caliber. The original down-loaded .44 russian equivalency is misleading. another reason why I don't see a need in the region in question to carry a .44 magnum over a .44 special.
.44 magnum
180gr JHP for 1444 fps and 833 foot pounds ( unknown pistol barrel)
200gr JHP for 1342 fps and 800 foot pounds ( unknown pistol barrel)
240gr JHP for 1383 fps and 1019 foot pounds ( unknown pistol barrel)
300gr LTC for 1370 fps and 1250 foot pounds ( 8 inch barrel)
rifles
310gr LFP for 1710 fps and 2013 foot pounds (marlin 1894)
265gr JSP for 1550 fps and 1414 foot pounds (unknown carbine barrel)
for fun, this carbine "silent" load-
240gr LSWC for 645 fps and 221 foot pounds out of a carbine. still a bit much for the bunny, but not bad....
With shotshells, the .44 will pack about 3 times the punch of a .38, and more than that over the .32. you can afford to buck up to #8 or #9 shot with that volume!
And, the .45
This one is a bit special because it's the only one that's one size. it's a .45 colt and it's a .45 colt, and that's it.
Can't say much different from the .44 about the actual bullets. big, heavy, beautiful.
In performance, ti's very close to the .44 magnum in modern loadings. Which limits it's range of utility in a handgun, on the lower end.
My main caution, here, is that it's also a cartridge dating back tot he 1870s, and not everything can handle a what a modern .45 ruger revolver can!
Now, if we can all accept that bunny stew might be as essential to surviving the real American Outback as shooting a coyote or a cougar too close to your sheep (who doesn't speak Basque, even!), let's chat.
One more little note. I'm very specifically looking at revolver/levergun combos here. I think it's great that everyone except me likes glocks in the high desert. I think it's wonderful that you can carry 2000 rounds of .223 for the H-bar ar15 on a 3 point sling. that's not this thread!. For me, survival skills and workign with the wilderness involves looking at the history and culture. And to this day, this is where you will find the most (non belly gun) revolvers and leverguns being toted around.
Nevada (where I live!) is entirely in the Great Basin, which on the west, also comprises parts of southeastern california, Oregon, and Washington. To the north and east it can be considered to involve parts of Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, much of Utah, and possibly bits of Arizona down south. South it leads a bit into mexico as well. I personally would leave mexico, half of eastern socal, and all but a tiny strip of arizona out of it, since I think the Mojave is a strong southern border for the environment.
There's some debate about how exactly to label this basin thing, but for our purposes, we want to cover stuff that involves game, shooting, and climate. Climate being semi-arid to bone dry, but with water. (go figure)
Climate means lots of short shots, sure, but lots of 150 yard plus opportunities.
In game terms, the Great Basin means
Mule deer, elk, pronghorn antelope, bighorn sheep and mountain goats. Javelina, hare and rabbit, all manner of upland game. In some areas, beaver, elk, porcupine, marmot, and (not so much) squirrel.
Predators and pests include cougar, very durned few bears, coyotes, a fair array of vipers (rattlesnakes), bobcats, crows, and (not so much) squirrels.
When thinking about a Great Basin (which i live in the very middle of) regular carry firearm pairing, the environment, history, and culture just screams lever gun and revolver. In matching calibers. (part of the idea of matching the calibers, or families, is long term survival/frugality. One set of dies! trim brass. swap bullets in and out)
Looking at the list, it's obvious that the .44 magnum is not a baseline cartridge for this. Nothing in a short/long arm matched combo is going to be much use for really long shots on mule deer, and for bighorn and elk I'd want more than even a levergun performance load .44 magnum.
So, let's say that for the longer long gun than our lever gun long gun, we're looking at a long barrelled, well fitted, heavy, accurate .45-70, .375, or something. Because this 2 gun combo assumes a long range hunting rifle and a shotgun are around somewheres, too. So, there's a shotty and a big game hunter with scope in the truck, k? we're going revolver and levergun shopping.
For rifle and revolver combos, here's the easily available choices I can find.
.22
.32
.38
.44
.45
.22LR - generally a really small and light 6 shot or a full frame size 9 shot revolver, in single or double action, with a lever (or, hell, semiauto) rifle.
Not much use on anything bigger than the upland game, bunnies and coyote, but not a bad carry for purposes other than self-defense.
.32 series gets a bit interesting. I'm leaving the .32-20 out of it because it's hard to find modern weapons that match and the other .32 choices are so much better. .32-20 would be it's own category.
.32 S&W long. Way underpowered for a levergun. But, will feed in a .32 H&R magnum levergun, which starts getting us up into game shots. but not very far. a .32 SWL revolver is great for small game, and can be okay for defensive purposes.
No lever guns seem to be available in .327 federal magnum as stock. conversions seem to be available. (which would also feed the H&R and long) A revolver/levergun combo in this would bring us up to cautious antelope and mulie hunting capabilities, plenty of defensive oopmh. Plus, in a revolver, you can load down to .32SWL performance (or just shoot that cartridge) and get your bunny stew on.
A 5 inch .32long revolver and a .32 federal lever gun would be an interesting pairing.
Here's the basic specs:
.32 Smith and Wesson Long
90 gr LSWC for 765 fps and 117 foot pounds (7 inch barrel)
117gr LFP for 713fps and 132 foot pounds. (4 inch barrel)
.32 H&R Magnum
77 gr LFP for 998 fps and 170 foot pounds (7 inch barrel)
100 gr JHP for 1,208 fps 324 foot pounds (7 inch barrel)
115gr LSWC for 1231 fps and 387 food pounds.
.327 Federal Magnum
100 gr JHP for 1,400 fps and 435 foot pounds (7 inch barrel)
115 gr JHP for 1,300 fps and 431 foot pounds (7 inch barrel)
100 gr JHP(?) for 2010 fps and 897 foot pounds (18.5 inch barrel)
in "raw" foot pounds, the .327 federal out of a carbine is giving you performance equivalent to a Keith .44 special hunting round. Which people will readily hunt deer with.
However, you don't have the bullet weight, or frontal area, for the energy transfer I'd like. penetration should be excellent, however.
.38 caliber.
Okay, here's the thing. The .32 combo lacks a little of the high end oomph, but is really going to be light to carry, effective for defense, but still works well for small game.
At .38 caliber you are looking at low end 110 grain slugs, up to big 200 grain loadings. Small game starts to be less doable. At the same time, you have a wide range of power levels, a lot more popular choices (.357 lever guns can be had!), bigger shotshells, and an ample production ammo choice.
Okay, that's ignoring the .357 maximum, but I haven't seen a lever gun made for that. (I also have a really sweet shooting 6 inch .38 special revolver.)
On the used market, there are an abundance of .38 special revolvers available, including hunting and target grades, not just snubbies.
While both cartdridges post date what most people think of as the revolver and levergun era, it's probably the classic combo. Except most of the time now it's going to be a .357 revolver as well. The .38 can give you a lighter shooting piece, though.
Basic stats (bigger list due to popularity):
.38 special
110 gr ) JHP 980 ft/s 235 foot pounds (7 inch barrel)
158 gr ) LRN 770 ft/s 208 foot pounds (7 inch barrel)
140gr HP for 988 fps and 303 foot pounds (unknown pistol barrel)
158gr LSWC for 910 fps and 290 foot pounds (unknown pistol barrel)
200gr LRN for 850 fps and 320 foot pounds (unknown pistol barrel)
* note, the above load is 16,000psi and comes close to +p levels
.38 special +p
125gr JHP for 1244 fps and 429 foot pounds (unknown pistol barrel)
125gr JHP for 1067 fps and 316 foot pounds ( same load. 2 inch pistol barrel)
158gr TMJ for 929 fps and 303 foot pounds (4 inch barrel)
.38 special full power loads in rifles are hard to find data on. hitting 400 foot pounds should not be difficult at all in a carbine with any of the heavier 158gr LRN of TMJ loads.
(all of these loads will do for man stoppers, the "minimum plinking load from hodgon in the top two lines are what most people think a .38 special is, and are marginal. 95 gr. and even 78 gr. bullets are available for small game hunting loadings.)
.357 magnum
130 gr JHP for 1,410 fps and 574 foot pounds (4 inch barrel)
158 gr JSP (?) for 1,485 fps and 774 foot pounds (4 inch barrel)
110gr JHP for 1520 fps and 564 foot pounds (5.6 inch barrel)
125gr JHP for 1785 fps and 884 foot pounds (6 inch barrel)
170gr FMJ for 1310 fps and 647 foot pounds (unknown pistol barrel)
110gr JHP for 2216 fps and 1199 foot pounds (carbine barrel)*
158gr XTP for 1957 fps and 1343 foot pounds (marlin 1894)
*this illustrates an issue that is leading me towards larger calibers, even with lighter loads, such as the .44 special. the 110 load is reportedly an acupuncture risk for large game and reserved for varmints. Foot pounds aren't everything!
Whoa. Break time. You can see, the .38 area starts getting really interesting. I still think the .32 is looking like a possibility, if a light and accurate carry revolver presents itself and a .327 federal lever gun comes up.
And now, here's where I want to be. It's a gut feeling, but this just seems like, an ideal combination.
.44
With the .44 series, you gain a lot of surface impact, shotshell capacity, and... well, you lose a lot of the smaller game capability.
The .44 magnum revolver is, flat out. overkill. This isn't alaska, and I want to carry a revolver without having to tote an 8 kilogram kettlebell as a counterbalance. Fun things, those redhawks, but overkill.
Fortunately, the .44 special is making a resurgence. From the charter arms belly gun to the new .44 special blackhawk on the .357 frame.
In lever guns, you have a decent assortment of .44 magnum options, all of which will cycle .44 special as needed.
The .44 special is comfortable to shoot, and the lead flying downrange has MASS. In the .44 magnum fromt he lever action, you've got the power to hunt (at differing ranges) anything in the list. though elk are getting a bit iffy, still.
The .44 magnum is popular, so lots of choices abound. The .44 special is on the comeback and loads, as well as firearms, are becoming more available.
Remember, before the magnum, Keith was hunting with the special!
.44 special
(first, the anemic two loads for business purposes)
200 gr SWC for 870 fps and 336 foot pounds (4 inch barrel)
246 gr LRN for 755 fps and 310 foot pounds (6 inch barrel)
(okay, real loads)
180gr JHP for 920 fps and 338 foot pounds (7 inch barrel)
185gr LRNFP for 1025 fps and 431 foot pounds (unknown pistol barrel)
200gr LSWC for 992 fps and 437 foot pounds (7 inch barrel)
200gr JHP for 838 fps and 311 foot pounds (2.5 inch barrel)
240gr JHP for 1149 fps and 703 foot pounds (7 inch barrel, near +p)
250gr LSWC for 1032 fps and 591 foot pounds (6 inch barrel, classic Keith load)
300gr JSP for 794 fps and 420 foot pounds (unknown pistol barrel) (and a shit-ton of lead)
You can see, with the ability to push the 500-700 foot pound range with hollow points and semi-wadcutters, this isn't a wimpy caliber. The original down-loaded .44 russian equivalency is misleading. another reason why I don't see a need in the region in question to carry a .44 magnum over a .44 special.
.44 magnum
180gr JHP for 1444 fps and 833 foot pounds ( unknown pistol barrel)
200gr JHP for 1342 fps and 800 foot pounds ( unknown pistol barrel)
240gr JHP for 1383 fps and 1019 foot pounds ( unknown pistol barrel)
300gr LTC for 1370 fps and 1250 foot pounds ( 8 inch barrel)
rifles
310gr LFP for 1710 fps and 2013 foot pounds (marlin 1894)
265gr JSP for 1550 fps and 1414 foot pounds (unknown carbine barrel)
for fun, this carbine "silent" load-
240gr LSWC for 645 fps and 221 foot pounds out of a carbine. still a bit much for the bunny, but not bad....
With shotshells, the .44 will pack about 3 times the punch of a .38, and more than that over the .32. you can afford to buck up to #8 or #9 shot with that volume!
And, the .45
This one is a bit special because it's the only one that's one size. it's a .45 colt and it's a .45 colt, and that's it.
Can't say much different from the .44 about the actual bullets. big, heavy, beautiful.
In performance, ti's very close to the .44 magnum in modern loadings. Which limits it's range of utility in a handgun, on the lower end.
My main caution, here, is that it's also a cartridge dating back tot he 1870s, and not everything can handle a what a modern .45 ruger revolver can!
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