long term 2 gun combos for the Great Basin

[Rat Finkenstein]

Write an Acceptance speech?

 

[dogboye]

Great question, I need to go back over some basic thoughts in the OP-

The "same caliber" thing isn't even that- it's a preference for keeping within the same cartridge family. There's a few reasons for this:

1: It doesn't necessarily simplify reloading on all levels, but it does on some. While most of the responses to my reloading focus have been "jarrry Ahern post 500 year apocalypse" - there's also the simple fact that it can be easier to manage reloading at all times if you don't have to stock 3 different primer sizes, any number of bullet types, etc. You do have to adjust things to load different carts in the same family (like .38 versus .357) though.

OK, I think I'm starting to understand here. As an FYI, if you or others on the thread aren't reloaders, the 44Spc, 44Mag, and the .45 Colt all use the same size primers, and unless you're wanting to go whole-hog spitting-fire loads, can use non-magnum primers (with all but some of the slow-burning powders). The 38/.357 uses smaller primers, which i'm guessing are different from those used in the 35 Remington (since I saw someone mentioned it). As well as different powders there. Incidentally, I've gotten all the power I need with 44 Spc and .45 Colt using Unique. As you may surmise, I would lean toward one of the bigger bores for what I perceive this thread to be about. Probably 44, in order to be able to download more. When you start downloading the .45 Colt (which was born around nearly 40 grains of black powder), downloading starts to be problematic unless you start using fillers on top of the (smokeless) powder charge. Less so with the 44 Spc, so a 44Spc/44Mag is a good choice for me. Heck, given a good 44Mag Vaquero, I could probably just go with 44Spc brass across the board, for both pistol and rifle. Oops, I mean revolver.

2: Versatility. If I'm carrying, say, a .38 revolver and a .357 lever gun (or a .44 special and .44mag lever), it's not the same cartridge, but it's the same family. I can keep a half dozen small game handloads that either will accept, for example. and if something did happen, I would be able to use, with decent effect, the pistol ammo in the carbine should I need to. After all, unless soemthing happens to the carbine, it's going to be more used than the pistol if I have it.

This is getting to the core of where I'm getting lost. If you're carrying a lever, then there really is never a reason that you would need to use the revolver, that I can perceive, other than just for fun. Although, if you permit me to go toward the defense against predators scenario, it gives you the option of having the rifle somewhat away from your person while still having the like-calibered weapon on your person. Or, is one system goes down. But unless it is an extended expedition/SHTF issue, if one system goes down, then it's time to leave and head back to the truck. Maybe I just don't have the best imagination.

3: And this doesn't directly relate to the "same cartridge family" part, but - I like tooling around out here. lots of variable environmental zones, lots of space. Carrying a handgun is not uncommon or unexpected, carrying a rifle isn't, either. I may not always take the rifle out of the truck, but if I do, I want something that's fairly easy to carry and easy shooting. In general, that gets away from heavier and longer hunting rifles, and for ammunition carrying purposes, away from large bore shotguns. Left with carbine type firearms for a preference, focussing on similar cartridge families between the revolver and carbine makes some sense. Looking at the numbers in the first post, it's also obvious that this isn't necessarily just "shooting a longer pistol", either.

Regarding the lever action itself, Chuck Hawkes wrote somewhere that people often compare the lever gun to the bolt action unfairly. Some bolts actions will have a stronger mechanism, but in general the comparison is unfair because people treat their bolt guns like match rifles and their lever guns as saddle rifles. If you polish and tune a lever gun the same way you do a bolt, you will start getting similar levels of performance.

You don't have to convince me on the merits of the lever. If I had my way, I'd have a lever-action in everything from 327Fed up to 405 Winchester, and everything in between. So far, all I've got is a .30-30, but I'm dreaming of the day i have a 35Rem as well. Then I'd start on the pistol cartridge levers, probably the 44, and then the 357. OH, and a conversion to 358 Winchester in there somewhere.

 

[koyote]

As you may surmise, I would lean toward one of the bigger bores for what I perceive this thread to be about. Probably 44, in order to be able to download more.

Well, i'm leaning towards a .44 eventually as well. more punch in a short revolver like a belly gun, easier shooting than a .357 out of most revolvers (okay, i've tried ONE .44 special and a half dozen .357 magnums, as well as a few .44 magnums)

I worry about how far you can really download the .44 before it gets silly, but I'll see.

This is getting to the core of where I'm getting lost. If you're carrying a lever, then there really is never a reason that you would need to use the revolver, that I can perceive, other than just for fun. Although, if you permit me to go toward the defense against predators scenario, it gives you the option of having the rifle somewhat away from your person while still having the like-calibered weapon on your person. Or, is one system goes down. But unless it is an extended expedition/SHTF issue, if one system goes down, then it's time to leave and head back to the truck. Maybe I just don't have the best imagination.

Yep. It's due to variability. I may leave the lever in the truck because trips aren't necessarily planned and we're just walking around looking for bones or something. Which is a major reason to carry the pistol "at all".

Snakes are the other main reason. I may sling the lever or pack it while walking up a butte or something and need a fast shot.

Self defense (goblins, zombies, whatever you want to call them) is another consideration, though it's not the top of the list. I've tried to stress that while it is a consideration, it's not really all that likely a circumstance compared to - in rough order- plinking, snakes, ferals, coyote on range (since we do hike on extended rangeland sometimes, with permission), predator mammals, opportunistic hunting (which may move up the list in time).

 

[Warriorsociologist]

Snakes are the other main reason. I may sling the lever or pack it while walking up a butte or something and need a fast shot.

To each his own, of course, but I've always thought that if i have time enough to draw down on and shoot a snake, I also have time enough to step aside and avoid it (unless of course I'm planning to put it in the dinner pot).

 

[koyote]

To each his own, of course, but I've always thought that if i have time enough to draw down on and shoot a snake, I also have time enough to step aside and avoid it (unless of course I'm planning to put it in the dinner pot).

1: Snake is always for the cookpot, and hatband.

2: Depends on territory and the state of the children at the time. I sometimes have both with me, sometimes only my 7 year old son. He's a decent shot with a .22, and is almost old enough to control his natural instinct to lean towards something he wants to examine. but almost isn't always enough. And my 4 year old is a wonderful desert bum, has lot sof endurance, but she's as likely to want to take the snake home as eat it (and she knows it's food)

(this is actually the only reason predatory mammals are on the list outside of livestock protection. I'm not a "Lone Wolf", I'm an "Involved Father" of a pair of little gun nuts. Carry your sidearms, people. Think of the children.)

 

[Rotte]

Lief needs a .410.

 

[reconranger]

Hmmm.... well, I used to spend A LOT of time on the trail in Arizona (and a few other desert areas). I still have friends who basically make their career out of walking that same desert. But I certainly agree, water is everything in the desert.

There are lots of different types of "deserts" in the American southwest. Actually, the Great Basin is a diverse place (depending on altitude and availability of water!), and doesn't have a whole lot in common with the southwest's low deserts or many other parts of the Basin and Range.

It is bordered east and west by huge mountain ranges, and there are numerous smaller "island" mountain ranges throughout.....so is isn't just one endless alkali desert! For the most part the mountains are oriented North/South, and it can snow at high altitude, far more than you might imagine! (Think Grand Canyon rim/Flagstaff area, if you are familiar with Arizona.) The insular mountain ranges are very interesting, because they contain species left "stranded" there when the iceage ended and the valleys became hot and dry.

http://www2.hawaii.edu/~khayes/Journal_Club/spring2007/Brown_1971_Amer_Nat.pdf

http://www.nps.gov/grba/planyourvisit/the-great-basin.htm

http://rst.gsfc.nasa.gov/Sect6/Sect6_8.html

http://www.nbii.gov/portal/server.pt?open=512&objID=561&mode=2&in_hi_userid=2&cached=true

Personally, I prefer to do my hiking in the cooler (can be extremely cold!) mountainous regions, and vehicular off-roading at lower altitude which is the more arid/hotter region. Spent a winter once at Barcroft Laboratory which is in the White/Inyo's on the western edge of the Great Basin, when I was young and stupid: http://www.wmrs.edu/

 

[lmalterna]

Look for loads in .44 using very light loads of powder and cast round ball. You can get them VERY light. I had loads for my 45-120 using round balls for rabbits and squirrel.

2Door

 

[koyote]

There are lots of different types of "deserts" in the American southwest. Actually, the Great Basin is a diverse place (depending on altitude and availability of water!), and doesn't have a whole lot in common with the southwest's low deserts or many other parts of the Basin and Range.

It is bordered east and west by huge mountain ranges, and there are numerous smaller "island" mountain ranges throughout.....so is isn't just one endless alkali desert! For the most part the mountains are oriented North/South, and it can snow at high altitude, far more than you might imagine! (Think Grand Canyon rim/Flagstaff area, if you are familiar with Arizona.) The insular mountain ranges are very interesting, because they contain species left "stranded" there when the iceage ended and the valleys became hot and dry.

http://www2.hawaii.edu/~khayes/Journal_Club/spring2007/Brown_1971_Amer_Nat.pdf

http://www.nps.gov/grba/planyourvisit/the-great-basin.htm

http://rst.gsfc.nasa.gov/Sect6/Sect6_8.html

http://www.nbii.gov/portal/server.pt?open=512&objID=561&mode=2&in_hi_userid=2&cached=true

Personally, I prefer to do my hiking in the cooler (can be extremely cold!) mountainous regions, and vehicular off-roading at lower altitude which is the more arid/hotter region. Spent a winter once at Barcroft Laboratory which is in the White/Inyo's on the western edge of the Great Basin, when I was young and stupid: http://www.wmrs.edu/

In addition, the water availability in a regional sense is very high. (though it changes over time). - with very basic management of canals, you have a lot of food production available. I live along an edge of that cultivation, and have high desert less than a mile away, with mountains, wetlands, lakes, more high desert, and butte outcroppings all within 15 miles of me.

It's really not at all like the mojave.

 

[koyote]

Lief needs a .410.

He needs to get a bit bigger first. probably a good 2-3 years away from a .410 or 28ga. Shame the old 9mm rimfie garden guns aren't made anymore, he'd have a blast saving our plum crop.

Look for loads in .44 using very light loads of powder and cast round ball. You can get them VERY light. I had loads for my 45-120 using round balls for rabbits and squirrel.

2Door

I hadn't even thought about round ball loadings. That's a good note. I know the .32 can be loaded as a 100 yard rabbit round with ease, but you can also pop 75 grain slugs out of a .32. I'm guessing (too early for fine math, just off the top of my head)- 110 to 130 grains for a round ball load in .43. I wonder how that would shoot with triple 7, hehehehe.

 

[lmalterna]

Depending on case volume, You may need a filler, cream of wheat worked for me Or something like natural cotton will work. Just something to keep the powder by the primer for proper ignition. I used a round ball and 50gr FFG in my 45-120. No recoil and very accurate for small game. I did use a lubed wad behind the ball.

2Door

 

[nemoaz]

There are lots of different types of "deserts" in the American southwest. Actually, the Great Basin is a diverse place (depending on altitude and availability of water!), and doesn't have a whole lot in common with the southwest's low deserts or many other parts of the Basin and Range.

Wasn't suggesting it was like the Sonoran, merely that I haven't done all my hunting in Michigan (where Uncle Sam currently has me) as another poster implied (or perhaps I inferred correctly or incorrectly).

I have been to Utah, unfortunately it was for the purpose of burying a brother in arms. Both Utah and Arizona are by and large flat and without significant foliage, but a skilled hunter can still use a "short-range" rifle and bring home game. I say that without suggesting that I would choose a pistol caliber carbine personally. In fact I agree that a flatter shooting rifle would be "better".

 

[wildmanh]

Wasn't suggesting it was like the Sonoran, merely that I haven't done all my hunting in Michigan (where Uncle Sam currently has me) as another poster implied (or perhaps I inferred correctly or incorrectly).

I have been to Utah, unfortunately it was for the purpose of burying a brother in arms. Both Utah and Arizona are by and large flat and without significant foliage, but a skilled hunter can still use a "short-range" rifle and bring home game. I say that without suggesting that I would choose a pistol caliber carbine personally. In fact I agree that a flatter shooting rifle would be "better".

Utah isn't as flat and deviod of trees as you think. I've lived here almost 20 years and have seen tons more folage then not. It all depends on the area you are in. Thats why it's said that Utah has such a deverse sellection of flora and fawna.

The tread is about the Carbine in a 3 gun combo that includes a Pistol, Long Range Rifle and Carbine. Pistol on my hip, Carbine acrost the saddle and a Rifle in the boot. Works for me. I just need to get the Rifle to complete my combo.

 

[koyote]

Utah isn't as flat and deviod of trees as you think. I've lived here almost 20 years and have seen tons more folage then not. It all depends on the area you are in. Thats why it's said that Utah has such a deverse sellection of flora and fawna.

The tread is about the Carbine in a 3 gun combo that includes a Pistol, Long Range Rifle and Carbine. Pistol on my hip, Carbine acrost the saddle and a Rifle in the boot. Works for me. I just need to get the Rifle to complete my combo.

It's one of the "signatures" of the Great Basin. The basin is a huge area of what is known and "basin and range" geology, where you have parallel "washboard" type ridge and valley topography that is all endorheic (no outflow, all drainage is internal to the region).

What this means is that, even though we're in an arid period for the basin (in a wet geologic age, where I live is a good 75 feet underwater in one of a series of inland seas)- even though it's an arid period, all the water stays.

This is one reason the irrigation system for north central nevada works so well, and one reason we're fighting a water rights war with CA, which wants to take the eastern sierra watershed (great basin) and pump it to the western overpopulated regions.


But what this means in broader terms, relating to the thread directly, is that you have canyons, ridges, flat basins, "desert hollers" and a hugely varied set of microclimates. Almost none of which resemble anything I've seen east of the Rockies. (or in the coastal PNW, where I've also lived)- the temeprate rainforests of OR and WA and the almost jungle-like areas of VA and on through the the South, the huge deciduous forests, none of that is here.

Squirrel is a great example. If I lived in the South, focusing on ability to take squirrel would matter. Here, I've seen 3 in town, and that's it. Rabbit is common enough, but you are looking at a lot more snap shots, moving hunting due to range size, and longer range shots. (this is one area where the .32 based cartridges look very good and useful)

One of my buddies here got an elk last week, I helped carry it to the legion hall walkin- easygoign 150 yard shot. I asked him and he says he's had up to 250 yard shots, but most of his elk and deer are in a 50 to 150 yard range. Again, that's specific to a hunting rifle.